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MartinJordan
Guest
Where is it in the Vatican website does it state the Pope can change (add or subtract from) Scripture
MJ
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MJ
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tqualey
Guest
Hi, Lucky,
I think you should listen to PRmerger on this - she’s right.
First of all, Revelations 22 tells us not to add or subtract from the Word of God. Here is a link: usccb.org/bible/revelation/22 Additionally, the Canon of Scripture was set (nothing can be added or subtracted) before 400AD. Here is a link on this: catholicapologetics.org/ap030700.htm
Ultimately, in my opinion, if we view the OT as the Promise and the NT as the Fufillment of the Promise a more accurate picture emerges both of God’s Word and the role of His Church in guarding and teaching it.
God bless
I think you should listen to PRmerger on this - she’s right.
First of all, Revelations 22 tells us not to add or subtract from the Word of God. Here is a link: usccb.org/bible/revelation/22 Additionally, the Canon of Scripture was set (nothing can be added or subtracted) before 400AD. Here is a link on this: catholicapologetics.org/ap030700.htm
Ultimately, in my opinion, if we view the OT as the Promise and the NT as the Fufillment of the Promise a more accurate picture emerges both of God’s Word and the role of His Church in guarding and teaching it.
God bless
Hey Brother
The Pope has that Authority, here is an example.
The 10 Commandments as given by the Church:
The 10 Commandments in the Bible:
- I am the LORD your God:
you shall not have
strange Gods before me.- You shall not take
the name of the LORD your God in vain.- Remember to keep holy the LORD’S Day.
- Honor your father and your mother.
- You shall not kill.
- You shall not commit adultery.
- You shall not steal.
- You shall not bear false witness
against your neighbor.- You shall not covet
your neighbor’s wife.- You shall not covet
your neighbor’s goods.
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/command.htm
Exodus 20 — DRB
1 And the Lord spoke all these words:
2 I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me:
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands to them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that shall take the name of the Lord his God in vain.
8 Remember that thou keep holy the sabbath day.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and shalt do all thy works.
10 But on the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: thou shalt do no work on it, thou nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy beast, nor the stranger that is within thy gates.
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them, and rested on the seventh day: therefore the Lord blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it.
12 Honour thy father and thy mother, that thou mayst be longlived upon the land which the Lord thy God will give thee.
13 Thou shalt not kill.
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15 Thou shalt not steal.
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house; neither shalt thou desire his wife, nor his servant, nor his handmaid, nor his ox, nor his ***, nor any thing that is his.
The has changed the Law from the Bible, including Sunday keeping of course.
I suggest asking your priest if you think the Vatican web site is incorrect.
Since the only Church that teaches Bible and Bible alone principle is the 7th Day Adventist Church. So they have to keep the Law as it is written in the Bible.
Tradition is higher than the Bible, The Pope is higher than the Bible.
Bible says Sabbath
Tradition says Sunday
Pope says Sunday.
"We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 364), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.” — Peter Geiermann, C.S.S.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50, 3rd edition, 1957.
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PRmerger
Guest
The Bible does not say that the day to worship the Lord is Saturday.
You are following a man-made tradition, Lucky. Something you heard a fallible man say, who heard another fallible man say, who heard another fallible man say.
But no one ever read that in a single page of the Bible.
P
PRmerger
Guest
Except that even the SDAs* don’t *follow the Bible Alone.
They follow the Sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church which discerned for them what belongs in the New Testament.
It is ONLY through Sacred Tradition that they know that the Gospel of Mark, for example, is inspired. And that the Gospel of Thomas is not.
Thus, they are following Sacred Tradition. And it is thanks to the authority of the Catholic Church.
Incidentally, they also are not Bible Alone, because the Bible Alone does not claim, ever, that one must go by the Bible Alone.
So they are refuting their own principle.
They can search from Genesis to Revelation, but they will never find that doctrine “Thou shalt go by the Bible Alone” in a single page of Scripture.
Ironic, isn’t it? They don’t even follow the Bible!
C
Crescentinus
Guest
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shaky
Guest
Hi Taqualey.Hi, Shaky,
You have identified yourself as Non-Denominational. As I appreciate this general concept - and then try to confine it into a definition I have crafted - they are individual groups of people who want to follow Christ but not withing the context of a particular set of beliefs or practices. All authority comes from the Bible - and it is the local preacher who identifies what the Bible means. Those not agreeing are free to form their own Non-Denominational group and believe as that preacher teaches. Now, if I missed something, let me know … but, as I said, this is my understanding.
Protestantism - both Non-Denominational and Denominational disagree on virtually everything that could be considered. (There is one thing, however - that all of Protestantism does agree on: the Catholic Church is wrong!) In no small measure ‘Sola Scruptura’ and ‘individual interpretation’ are responsible for all of this doctrinal chaos. Protestantism does not recognize a single authority source - and contrary to what you may have heard no book - including the Bible - interprets itself. Interpretation is done by man. The difference here is that the Holy Spirit is guidinng the Catholic Church’s infallible interpretations and each Protestant is on their own.
I submit to look at Protestantism - all forms - and note the areas of disagreement and agreement. Then compare this to the Catholic Church. After you have this list - then go back and do a historical search to see when these ideas came about. Luther’s contribution to the 16th Century revolt was ‘Sola Scriptura’ - but, prior to that - we find the Catholic Church (not individuals) defining and explaining the meaning of Scripture. And, as you notice - that was going on for over 1,500 years since Christ’s Resurrection.
In another post on the Real Presence, I challenged a poster about the meaning of John 6 and how his explanation was quite different from that of the Catholic Church. I asked him to write a summary of John 6 in no more then 100 words - and you may have guessed… there was a lot of bluster and claims that he understood it - but, he never wrote a single word. Actually, you can take any chapter from the NT and do the same thing - the very essence of Protestantism is to take the clearly written words and explain them away! Really. And, if you or anyone else has a doubt - just write your own summary (just 100 words max) and then compare it to any Protestant’s explanation. Writing such a summary of a written piece is something that 5th Graders are given as an assignment to see how well they comprehend what it is they have read. The 100 words does not allow one a lot of margin to put in their personal opinion or doctrinal bias - it is just a summary of the Scripture says. This is not an infallible process - but, I think it would be quite revealing. Simply read the text and then read the summary and see if the summary matches the text. Nothing mysterious here - just simple comprehension.
After you do this for several items, a strange pattern will begin to develop. The ‘strangeness’ is that while Protestantism claims ‘Sola Scriptura’ what it really means is ‘My interpretation of the written word’ (don’t know how to strike that into Latin…) And, then you must ask yourself - if Christ says to do something and Protestantism says not to do it - who are you going to follow?
Now, take a look at your honest summary and compare it to the teachings of the Catholic Church. Do this for several items that you have summarized and a ‘strange’ but totally different pattern develops. What you wrote matches Catholic teaching - and it is nothing like the anti-Catholic criticism you have heard in the past. The Catholic Church - founded by Christ on weak and sinful Peter (and so are all of Peter’s successors) teaches the Truth.
There is the answer to your question.
God bless
God bless
As Regards None-denominal from my Perspective. I am not part of any none denominal church. Nor do i Intend to start any none denominal Church. I believe there are Many different Protestant denominal or none denominal Sects around and i do not Intend to start my Own Sect.
Because of problems i had with different type Protestant Churches. I have put them all to One side.
For the Last 14 years I am Just all alone in a spiritual journey trying to follow Christ to the best of my ability on how i know i should be following him. There are Plenty of others in this Position. The most i can do is tell people about Christ and leave them to work their own salvation out.
I must admit that in the past i did not look into the catholic side of things because i thought it was Just Another bible denomination that did not like the Protestant’s and witches and burnt them at the stake through the Inquisition in the past. Also there was thr Northern Irland thing going On between Protestant and Catholic. So before i did read the bible or went to any Church i thought the catholic church was Wrong for doing these practises’ So i did not Look into the Catholic Church.
It was because lately i got a computer that i was able to study the History of Christianity that has Led me to the Catholic Side of things and Learnt Much. So i am now not in the Position to Judge the Catholic Church as being Wrong Just because Some of its Members behaved badly.
When you study the history of the Protestant Side of things Some of their Members Behaved badly.
I have looked fully at the Eastern Orthodox Side of things. But i do now need to fully Look into the Roman Catholic Side of Things.
Pablope:: Has given me a few good Links for me to Study. Thanks for your Help Tqualey
God Bless.
S
shaky
Guest
What does Colossians 2:16 and Romans 14:5 Tell us Regarding which day we keep as Holy and Worship On ?
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tqualey
Guest
Hi, Crescentinus,
You made a statement of fact that simply is insupportable. Now, you are welcomed to attempt to support or even explain what you mean - but you will need to take the following into accoung:
If the SDAC really followed the Bible: males would be circumcised on the 8th day, animal sacrifice would be offered in the Temple (destroyed in 70AD by the Romans), stone people who break commandments, etc.
My understanding of the Great Controversy has it origins in the Great Disappointment where people attempted to predict (on more then one occason) the Second Coming of Christ. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Controversy_(book I think that White showed much better leadership then Miller by not trying to get into the ‘prediction busiess’. But, there is some concer about the rock that hit her in the face did more then just damage her nose: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Controversy_(book.
But, I guess the biggest problem with White & Co is here anti-Catholic campaigning that is continued this day by her followers (the ones that honor her as a prophet as they continue to buy her book.)
So, if you have any evidence, nnow would be a good time to put it on display.
God bless
You made a statement of fact that simply is insupportable. Now, you are welcomed to attempt to support or even explain what you mean - but you will need to take the following into accoung:
If the SDAC really followed the Bible: males would be circumcised on the 8th day, animal sacrifice would be offered in the Temple (destroyed in 70AD by the Romans), stone people who break commandments, etc.
My understanding of the Great Controversy has it origins in the Great Disappointment where people attempted to predict (on more then one occason) the Second Coming of Christ. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Controversy_(book I think that White showed much better leadership then Miller by not trying to get into the ‘prediction busiess’. But, there is some concer about the rock that hit her in the face did more then just damage her nose: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Controversy_(book.
But, I guess the biggest problem with White & Co is here anti-Catholic campaigning that is continued this day by her followers (the ones that honor her as a prophet as they continue to buy her book.)
So, if you have any evidence, nnow would be a good time to put it on display.
God bless
T
tqualey
Guest
Hi, Shaky,
If you have sincere questions, I think there is a good size ‘army’ of practicing Catholics that would be happy to give you accurate information.
People come to CAF for a variety of reasons. Personally, I am blessed for having found this site and have learned so much about my Catholic Faith. There really is a lot to it - and, what immediately separates it from all others is that it was founded by Christ on weak and sinful Peter in Matt 16.
Study well and learn all you can. We all have a profound responsibilty to follow Christ to the best of our ability as we cooperate with His Grace.
God bless
If you have sincere questions, I think there is a good size ‘army’ of practicing Catholics that would be happy to give you accurate information.
People come to CAF for a variety of reasons. Personally, I am blessed for having found this site and have learned so much about my Catholic Faith. There really is a lot to it - and, what immediately separates it from all others is that it was founded by Christ on weak and sinful Peter in Matt 16.
Study well and learn all you can. We all have a profound responsibilty to follow Christ to the best of our ability as we cooperate with His Grace.
God bless
C
Crescentinus
Guest
When I said that the SDAs are following The Great Controversy, I am talking about the origins of their anti-Catholicism. It has even been used to explain various anti-Catholic conspiracy theories.
I know, they have a problem with actually following the Bible. Last I checked, they do not even try to follow the 613 Mosaic laws. Not only that, they have also used the Bible to support their anti-Catholicism. That is why they are mostly going after Catholics, with limited results as of late.
Really? That was the reason behind The Great Controversy? I’ve known of The Great Disappointment, but not of the links between the two.
A
andrewstx
Guest
The Great Controversy is the proper name for a book plagerised by Ellen White where she and her origianal sources tell huge whopping lies about history. It tries to establish a history of “sabbath keepers” through time. Claiming heretics such as the Paulicans and others as "sabbath keepers’.
It is like the “trail of blood” used by some extreme Baptists to try and establish a “baptisic succession” through the centuries. Most baptists recognise it for the fantasy it is.
SDAs on the other hand take the “great contoversy” very seriously.
The Great Dissapointment is more of an idea from the 19th century and not a book.
It is like the “trail of blood” used by some extreme Baptists to try and establish a “baptisic succession” through the centuries. Most baptists recognise it for the fantasy it is.
SDAs on the other hand take the “great contoversy” very seriously.
The Great Dissapointment is more of an idea from the 19th century and not a book.
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Crescentinus
Guest
A very bad idea which had plenty of anti-Catholicism. After all, anti-Catholicism had its first golden era from the 1800’s until WWII. After that, it went underground until after 2001. Now, anti-Catholicism has its renaissance and is now the most acceptable prejudice in America.
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tqualey
Guest
Hi, Andrewstx,
I did not mean to imply that the ‘Great Disappointment’ was a book(let) like “The Great Controversy”. The former was a series of events with the false prediction(s) of Christ’s Second Coming made by William Miller in 1844 while the latter is a writing by Ellen White. Now, I did not know that her book was plagerised. Do you have a reference on that part?
Mrs White who had been hit in the head with a rock as a child, later came up with Sabbath worship as the way to go. Admittedly, these two events are separated in time - but, in my opinion there are a number of threads that connect them.
God bless
I did not mean to imply that the ‘Great Disappointment’ was a book(let) like “The Great Controversy”. The former was a series of events with the false prediction(s) of Christ’s Second Coming made by William Miller in 1844 while the latter is a writing by Ellen White. Now, I did not know that her book was plagerised. Do you have a reference on that part?
Mrs White who had been hit in the head with a rock as a child, later came up with Sabbath worship as the way to go. Admittedly, these two events are separated in time - but, in my opinion there are a number of threads that connect them.
God bless
A
andrewstx
Guest
Tom I have had a stroke and my cyber-skills are not that great. I don’t know how to make links to original sources… Just say that I have read about the plagarism for decades.Hi, Andrewstx,
I did not mean to imply that the ‘Great Disappointment’ was a book(let) like “The Great Controversy”. The former was a series of events with the false prediction(s) of Christ’s Second Coming made by William Miller in 1844 while the latter is a writing by Ellen White. Now, I did not know that her book was plagerised. Do you have a reference on that part?
Mrs White who had been hit in the head with a rock as a child, later came up with Sabbath worship as the way to go. Admittedly, these two events are separated in time - but, in my opinion there are a number of threads that connect them.
God bless
There are links between the two, links between Miller and White and other individuals who thought the parousia was right around the corner.
The SDAs and JWs and Seventh Day Baptists are all linked, and even the mormons have their place in all of this.
It was all linked to the “great apostacy” theory even the accapella churches of Christ figure into the “apostacy/restoration” idea.
And of course they all despise Catholics.
T
tqualey
Guest
Hi, Andrewstx,
Sorry to hear about your stroke. You’ve done fine on the posts - keep up the good work!
You know, there are 30,000+ groups, assemblies, tabernacles, missions - all claiming to be the church that is most closely following Christ - and they disagree about every form of doctrine, litugry and devotion. Almost all are Sola Scriptura and all can’t even agree enough to come up with some fundamental Protestant principles! But, maybe that is unfair… after all, there is one thing that they all really do agree on: the Catholic Church is wrong!
They are truly an amazing group - accepting most of the OT and all of the NT identified by the Catholic Church around 400AD - yet they are right and we are wrong … and they simply refuse to see the disconnect there…
God bless
Sorry to hear about your stroke. You’ve done fine on the posts - keep up the good work!
You know, there are 30,000+ groups, assemblies, tabernacles, missions - all claiming to be the church that is most closely following Christ - and they disagree about every form of doctrine, litugry and devotion. Almost all are Sola Scriptura and all can’t even agree enough to come up with some fundamental Protestant principles! But, maybe that is unfair… after all, there is one thing that they all really do agree on: the Catholic Church is wrong!
They are truly an amazing group - accepting most of the OT and all of the NT identified by the Catholic Church around 400AD - yet they are right and we are wrong … and they simply refuse to see the disconnect there…
God bless
L
Lucky_Catholic1
Guest
Hey
According to this quote the 7th Day Adventist Church follows the Bible and Bible alone principle:
“Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. “The Day of the Lord” (dies Dominica) was chosen, not from any directions noted in the Scriptures, but from the Church’s sense of its own power. The day of resurrection, the day of Pentecost, fifty days later, came on the first day of the week. So this would be the new Sabbath. People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy.” Sentinel, Pastor’s page, Saint Catherine Catholic Church, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 1995
According to this quote the 7th Day Adventist Church follows the Bible and Bible alone principle:
“Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. “The Day of the Lord” (dies Dominica) was chosen, not from any directions noted in the Scriptures, but from the Church’s sense of its own power. The day of resurrection, the day of Pentecost, fifty days later, came on the first day of the week. So this would be the new Sabbath. People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy.” Sentinel, Pastor’s page, Saint Catherine Catholic Church, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 1995
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tqualey
Guest
Hi, Lucky,
One thing I have never figured out is that since St. Paul was really quite happy to no longer be bound by the Law - and the Judiazers were defeated in their efforts to have the new Christians become Jews first so they could observe the Law and then follow Christ - just who is saying we should return to the Law?
And, if the Sabbath and the Commandments are the only things observed - who dispensed them from all of the other commands of the Law - Ellen White and her followers?
Seriously, as I see it, you just can not have it both ways. Either one follows Christ and His commands - and the Church He founded on weak and sinful Peter - and his successors - or you just follow the teachings of some man (or woman) and make up your own rules and just hope for the best.
It would seem that some are sincere believers - and I am confident that this will be in their favor when they appear before the Throne of God. Others are wondering - and I think they need to sincerely investigate what it is that Christ did while on earth.
God bless
One thing I have never figured out is that since St. Paul was really quite happy to no longer be bound by the Law - and the Judiazers were defeated in their efforts to have the new Christians become Jews first so they could observe the Law and then follow Christ - just who is saying we should return to the Law?
And, if the Sabbath and the Commandments are the only things observed - who dispensed them from all of the other commands of the Law - Ellen White and her followers?
Seriously, as I see it, you just can not have it both ways. Either one follows Christ and His commands - and the Church He founded on weak and sinful Peter - and his successors - or you just follow the teachings of some man (or woman) and make up your own rules and just hope for the best.
It would seem that some are sincere believers - and I am confident that this will be in their favor when they appear before the Throne of God. Others are wondering - and I think they need to sincerely investigate what it is that Christ did while on earth.
God bless
P
PRmerger
Guest
This is not a correct explication of Catholic teaching, Lucky. The Church does not proclaim a truth “of its own power”. Rather, it proclaims only Truth as guided by the Holy Spirit.
L
Lucky_Catholic1
Guest
Hey,
You are ignoring my point:
“People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy.”
According to one of the previous posts it was suggested that the 7th Day Adventist Church do not hold to the Bible and Bible alone principle.
The Catholic quote I provided said they do keep to the Bible and Bible alone principle.
You are ignoring my point:
“People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy.”
According to one of the previous posts it was suggested that the 7th Day Adventist Church do not hold to the Bible and Bible alone principle.
The Catholic quote I provided said they do keep to the Bible and Bible alone principle.
P
PRmerger
Guest
Firstly, that is not a “Catholic quote”. That is a quote by a Catholic. That’s a big difference.
However, that’s beside the point.
The quote is incorrect because the NT is full of examples of followers of Jesus who celebrated the Lord’s Day on Sunday, from the earliest days. And thus anyone who follows the Bible Alone paradigm will see that Sunday Worship is, indeed, Biblical.
Finally, it is a self-refuting concept to follow the Bible Alone. Why? Because the Bible never says to do this.
Thus, anyone who follows the Bible Alone is not following the Bible Alone.
And, as the Bible never says that the letter to the Hebrews is inspired, or the Gospel of Mark is, or the letter to Philemon, it is only by the authority of the Catholic Church that anyone knows that these books are part of Scripture.
Thus, NO ONE can be Bible Alone. Even if they profess to be. Anyone who quotes from the Bible is telling us, “***We believe in the authority of the Catholic Church to tell us that this verse is holy and the Word of God!” ***
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