Tea party wins in northeastern primaries could bode well for Democrats

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Really? Tell that to those demanding that the Tea Party movement expel the racist elements. Those people certainly seem to think there is some central leadership.

Indeed they do, for political expediency. But I’m not talking about the candidates, but the supporters. And that is the context in which CMatt25 posted.

Then why bring it up? Why should Maddow mention it at all. (I don’t know if Maddow actually said anything about it, but it is what CMatt25 seems to say.)

Eh? What are you saying here? That the federal government is an example of moderation?

Well, to that I do mostly agree. One cannot nail down a particular Tea Party position other than to say that some candidate endorses some position. Yet when it comes to a fringe element being racist, the entire movement is labeled racist.

But even if it were coherent, it wouldn’t be a case of contradiction. Maddow, like many on the left, misstate the conservative position with regard to government. The left seems to think that the conservative position is that any government is too big. But that isn’t the position at all. It isn’t** BIG BIG** government when it acts to protect lives and property. It is** BIG BIG** government when it attempts to take on roles properly understood to be the role of society and individuals.
Maddow, as with most of the pundits on MSNBC, and many here, suffer from the Straw Man logical fallacy. They create a false conservative 'position" and then attack that position as if it were the real thing. Then they declare victory. All they did was killed a a pile of straw. Too many conservatives end up taking the bait and try to defend the strawman because of the emotional investment they have in the outcome. I applaud their zeal, many just need to get smarter on the tactic of the other side of the debate.
 
So, you consider Obama and Steele to be competent leaders?
If those two men are not the most competent in their parties, their parties do not lack for good, competent leadership. I don’t even know who is considered the leadership among the Tea Partyists.
You consider the democratic platform worthy of consideration as a Catholic? Yes, I guess Obama is experienced now, not all experience is good though. Competence is arguable for either party and yes they both have a clearly defined purpose, the Dems are pushing theirs to the limit and the GOP establishments too confused to figure out whethere or not they should reach across the aisle even when its goes against the main theme of their platform.
I see your point, but I’ll put my trust in someone from inside those parties, most probably the Democratic, over trust in someone from outside.
Tea Party, is a term with an obvious background. It’s not an official political party, but a group of people seeking to put politicians in office who are going to do what they say they are going to do. Hopefully get away from the dirty tricks of putting bills in bills and accusing the other party of being cold and heartless.
With a “platform” so nebulous, I don’t see how they’ll be any good for the country.
You seem to be confused by this. They are looking to implement that leadership within the GOP, which like the democrats, has a shortage of good honest Americans.
That’s nice thing to say - the GOP and the Democrats have a shortage of good, honest Americans. The Tea Partyists are all virtuous saints, totally honest, and good?
 
I wouldn’t either, to be honest, Rich. I can understand Scott’s frustration, though.

To sort of make your point, Todd Palin was photographed wearing a “If you don’t like our country, why don’t you get the h—l out?” T-shirt during the campaign.

On the other hand, if I had a dollar for every time Alec Baldwin and other Hollywood elites said they would “leave the country” if Bush or another Republican was elected president or re-elected president, I would be “comfortable.”
In other words—“If the American People don’t agree with my political views, I will not honor them with my presence anymore.” Gimme a break. It goes both ways.
Personally, people who have views like that (Right-wing or Left-wing) I would personally help pack their bags. And drive them to the Airport. And write them “How are things going in Europe?” from America. :cool:
If anyone believes they have a right to impose their ideology on me, then yes, I invite them to get the hell out of this country, because it was not set up that way. Our Constitution is a document of NEGATIVE rights. It is a set of constraints on the government, telling them what they CANNOT do to the citizens of the USA. So when they make a law that REQUIRES me to have insurance, lie about it in public until it passes, and then say the complete opposite thing that they said while they were trying to get popular support, then I don’t believe they have any place in this country. This is what I mean when i go on about being ruled rather than being governed.
 
If those two men are not the most competent in their parties, their parties do not lack for good, competent leadership. I don’t even know who is considered the leadership among the Tea Partyists.
That is what you don’t get. THERE IS NO LEADERSHIP AMONG THE TEA PARTIES.

How many languages do you speak, maybe I can translate?

The Tea Party is about a return to INDIVIDUALISM and to break completely away from the morose collectivism that has turned our country into an apathetic entitlement minded nanny state it has become.

I AM THE TEA PARTY. I don’t need a leader telling me what to say or how to think.
 
With a “platform” so nebulous, I don’t see how they’ll be any good for the country.

The Tea Partyists are all virtuous saints, totally honest, and good?
I’ve never felt their platform was so nebulous. I would think that any intellectual would be able to understand it. Maybe it’s just too simple.

No, they for the most part are made up of average Americans tired of looking up at politicians who are waving and smiling and shaking their hand then retreating into their closed door chambers to make behind the scene deals using money they can print, borrow or steal at whim to make themselves wealthier.
 
I’ve never felt their platform was so nebulous. I would think that any intellectual would be able to understand it. Maybe it’s just too simple.

No, they for the most part are made up of average Americans tired of looking up at politicians who are waving and smiling and shaking their hand then retreating into their closed door chambers to make behind the scene deals using money they can print, borrow or steal at whim to make themselves wealthier.
Sometimes simplicity is the best option. 👍

Throw them all out for 2-3 election cycles until they get the hint that it is NOT their country to drive over a cliff at their whim, or at the behest of some special interest lobby.
 
That is what you don’t get. THERE IS NO LEADERSHIP AMONG THE TEA PARTIES.

How many languages do you speak, maybe I can translate?

The Tea Party is about a return to INDIVIDUALISM and to break completely away from the morose collectivism that has turned our country into an apathetic entitlement minded nanny state it has become.

I AM THE TEA PARTY. I don’t need a leader telling me what to say or how to think.
Hey Scott, just out of curiousity, have you ever listened to Andrew Wilkow?

He always says “Power to the meople”. I love his show.
 
That is what you don’t get. THERE IS NO LEADERSHIP AMONG THE TEA PARTIES.
You consider that a good thing???
How many languages do you speak, maybe I can translate?
Take your pick - Thai, Vietnamese, Russian, Polish. I was an intelligence officer in the AF, a prisoner interrogator in 'Nam, and an agent handler in Thailand.
I AM THE TEA PARTY. I don’t need a leader telling me what to say or how to think.
Good. And, when several million of you individualists have at least several thousand different points of view and ideas abut how certain issues are to be addressed, then what? Blaze away at each other like the Hatfields and the McCoys? 🤷
 
I wouldn’t either, to be honest, Rich. I can understand Scott’s frustration, though.

To sort of make your point, Todd Palin was photographed wearing a “If you don’t like our country, why don’t you get the h—l out?” T-shirt during the campaign.

On the other hand, if I had a dollar for every time Alec Baldwin and other Hollywood elites said they would “leave the country” if Bush or another Republican was elected president or re-elected president, I would be “comfortable.”
In other words—“If the American People don’t agree with my political views, I will not honor them with my presence anymore.” Gimme a break. It goes both ways.
Personally, people who have views like that (Right-wing or Left-wing) I would personally help pack their bags. And drive them to the Airport. And write them “How are things going in Europe?” from America. :cool:
I think there is “leaving” and “leaving”. Catholics in this country have, for a long time, been fully engaged in the “American identity”. It was one of the things that seemed vitally important when we (being relative latecomers) were assumed by so many to somehow be alien. It is not for no reason that the primary social/service club in the Church in this country is not the “Knights of Rome” or the “Knights of the Vatican” but the “Knights of Columbus”, whose Fourth Degree is the Degree of Patriotism. It was possible to do that, even relatively easy to do it, because, despite anti-Catholicism among many, there were very major similarities in the ideals and mores of “native” Protestants and Catholics. Consequently, there were not huge philosophical and moral barriers between Catholics and the societal culture generally.

Progressively (no pun intended) this society and its government have gone alien to much the Church stands for. Far from there being any real concern for the needy who can’t help themselves, “social programs” are vote-buying schemes aimed at the middle class, where the votes are. Abortion is embraced. Fetal stem cell research is embraced. Euthanasia is getting closer and closer to being generally approved. Call them “death panels” or something nicer, but the government just cut $500 billion (or pretended to) from the healthcare of the elderly, and have left it to Dr. Tiller’s friend, Kathleen Sebelius, to enact “regulations” that will “guide” care decisions. Homosexuality is being generally accepted as “just a variant of normal”, and that is being taught to children in many ways. Sexual license is celebrated. Sexual, um, “aids” are advertised openly.

So, while I think moving to Europe (egad!) or Chile or somewhere is a misguided notion, I think Catholics who wish to remain faithful to the Church do need to think long and hard about “leaving”, but in another sense. If, say, the society, culture and government assail and assault one’s children or grandchildren with selfishness and immorality, there really is a sense in which we must “leave” and create our own small societies. One hopes the society as a whole does not become more and more alienated from Catholic mores and teachings, but the signs of the times are not good in that respect.

When one comes down to it, one may find it notable that the Bible does not encourage putting “faith in kings”. Jesus Himself treated governance as almost an irrelevancy (“Render to Caesar…etc.” But he did encourage the proper example for children and did encourage love and charity among the faithful.

Staying on topic here, (or returning perhaps) it is my opinion that this election has its own dynamics; dynamics that are similar nationwide but which vary from place to place. I’m not a northeasterner, and am not sure how they think if, indeed, there is any “they” to it. But this election, I think, has its own drivers. Let’s face it, O’Donnell is very much the “plain Jane” candidate. Nothing truly exciting about her, and a lot that’s ordinary or even sub-ordinary. But one has to ask oneself how many people have, in this recession, found themselves dislodged from former positions of perhaps overweening pride and now think of themselves as “plain Janes”, ordinary or sub-ordinary. The “savior”, Obama, turned out to be just one more vote-buying politician, and one whose policies don’t really have that much appeal “on the ground” despite what they sounded like “in the air”. Since the “savior” expectation has been pretty much cast to the ground, it’s entirely possible that people will simply decide that ordinary people might do just as well or better. Who was it? W.F. Buckley, who said he would rather be governed by the first “X” number of people in the New York phone book than by a similar number of academics? (heavily paraphrased) O’Donnell might be perceived as one of the first “X” number of names in the town wherever she’s from in Delaware.
 
Good. And, when several million of you individualists have at least several thousand different points of view and ideas abut how certain issues are to be addressed, then what? Blaze away at each other like the Hatfields and the McCoys? 🤷
Thats a relative question, depending on the issue.

Many of them may want to handle an issue without government, even if it means a tougher go at things.

Many of them want the state to be able to handle it, even if it means less money available. The strings attached to federal spending are negating the idea that we are 50 different states and a person can vote with their feet.
 
politicians who are waving and smiling and shaking their hand then retreating into their closed door chambers to make behind the scene deals using money they can print, borrow or steal at whim to make themselves wealthier.
Your cynicism about those in Congress right now is one of the reasons why I could never vote for any Tea Party candidate. I don’t believe that the Congress is totally on the take. I believe that there are good men on both sides, men who have the best interests of the U.S. at heart, and who work to have those interests satisfied.
 
Your cynicism about those in Congress right now is one of the reasons why I could never vote for any Tea Party candidate. I don’t believe that the Congress is totally on the take. I believe that there are good men on both sides, men who have the best interests of the U.S. at heart, and who work to have those interests satisfied.

You may vote Tea Party if you like. Just don’t expect me to respect them or to vote for them.
I don’t believe Congress as a whole is either, but only a fool would deny that those like Pelosi and Rengal have not made behind the scene deals to improve their own wealth. It only takes one crooked politician in charge to mess things up.
 
So, while I think moving to Europe (egad!)
You might change your mind if you go to the south of France. 😃 What is the saying? “To live like God in France.” 😉
I think Catholics who wish to remain faithful to the Church do need to think long and hard about “leaving”, but in another sense. If, say, the society, culture and government assail and assault one’s children or grandchildren with selfishness and immorality, there really is a sense in which we must “leave” and create our own small societies. One hopes the society as a whole does not become more and more alienated from Catholic mores and teachings, but the signs of the times are not good in that respect.
Good point. One can be both within the society and outside it without wrenching oneself away from our country physically. Otherwise, one has no chance to either change it or support it, but only the chance to complain about it.
 
You consider that a good thing???

Absolutely. We have people who run at the front, but they don’t tell us where to go, how to think, or what to say. Just because we are like minded does not make us a collectivist mob.

Take your pick - Thai, Vietnamese, Russian, Polish. I was an intelligence officer in the AF, a prisoner interrogator in 'Nam, and an agent handler in Thailand.

Sorry, my concentration is romance and biblical languages. Can I interest you in Greek or Italian?

Good. And, when several million of you individualists have at least several thousand different points of view and ideas abut how certain issues are to be addressed, then what? Blaze away at each other like the Hatfields and the McCoys? 🤷

Not when the several million respect each other’s difference of opinion. Individualism is not about ME over YOU, it is more about you not being over me. non-aggression libertarianism. Look it up. Why is this false dicholomy of “If we don’t have an identified leader, we are going to take up arms and start killing each other” come from? I tell you, collecivists are a funny bunch. :rolleyes:
My comments in blue.
 
Your cynicism about those in Congress right now is one of the reasons why I could never vote for any Tea Party candidate. I don’t believe that the Congress is totally on the take. I believe that there are good men on both sides, men who have the best interests of the U.S. at heart, and who work to have those interests satisfied.
There may be good individuals in the bunch, but the process itself is incorragibly corrupt and broken. Even if one goes in with good intentions, the players in power eventually corral them where they are expected to go. That is why the lot of them need to be replaced, if nothing more than as a reminder that they serve their constituents, not the money men of K street.
 
I don’t believe Congress as a whole is either, but only a fool would deny that those like Pelosi and Rengal have not made behind the scene deals to improve their own wealth. It only takes one crooked politician in charge to mess things up.
*cough * cough Charles Rangel cough
 
Your cynicism about those in Congress right now is one of the reasons why I could never vote for any Tea Party candidate. I don’t believe that the Congress is totally on the take. I believe that there are good men on both sides, men who have the best interests of the U.S. at heart, and who work to have those interests satisfied.
Congress is just a place to learn graft, minor league if you will.

Senate and above are the pros!
 
Absolutely. We have people who run at the front, but they don’t tell us where to go, how to think, or what to say. Just because we are like minded does not make us a collectivist mob.
To have people at the front implies that you’re all running in the same direction. I’m not so sure that’s true.
Sorry, my concenration is romance and biblical languages. Can I interest you in Greek or Italian?
Not modern Greek. I had three years of Attic Greek in an “elitist” Jesuit high school in NYC, and that’s a far cry from even Koine Greek let alone what’s spoken on the streets of Athens. Not so much in Italian either, I’m afraid, as my wife is a patriotic Sicilian-American. I learned her language, and so do a better job of understanding a Mafioso than I do a Roman patrician.
Not when the several million respect each other’s difference of opinion. Individualism is not about ME over YOU, it is more about you not being over me. non-aggression libertarianism.
I can understand you as a libertarians, yes.

TTFN.
 
The Tea Party is nothing more than an indication of how sick and tired regular tax paying, hard working Americans are tired of our government and its attitude that we are children who can’t be trusted to take care of ourselves.

All we want is Washington to get their hands out of our pockets.😉

But they don’t get it. So we’ll show them.👍
 
To have people at the front implies that you’re all running in the same direction. I’m not so sure that’s true.

Not modern Greek. I had three years of Attic Greek in an “elitist” Jesuit high school in NYC, and that’s a far cry from even Koine Greek let alone what’s spoken on the streets of Athens. Not so much in Italian either, I’m afraid, as my wife is a patriotic Sicilian-American. I learned her language, and so do a better job of understanding a Mafioso than I do a Roman patrician.

I can understand you as a libertarians, yes.

TTFN.
Generally, the tea partiers are moving in the same direction. Some want things that others don’t. I am a non-aggression minarchist and an anarcho-capitalist. Some are more “conservative” in their bent (although I don’t know what this term really means anymore). Conservatism is by definition a maintaining of the status quo. That would mean the acceptance of abortion on demand with government funding, exorbitant entitlement spending, etc… I think these are the things that the tea party is moving away from, not trying to protect.
I learned my Italian on the streets of Sicily back in the 90s.
 
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