Tea party wins in northeastern primaries could bode well for Democrats

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I don’t either partly because some Tea Party folks, especially perhaps Catholic Tea Party advocates might not then be happy if just as a for instance, only some states outlaw abortion and others do not. Then what?
Le mieux est l’ennemi du bien

I guarantee you the pro-life movement would be considerably more happy with some states outlawing it than have no states outlaw it, as is the current solution. Sorry, but to say that since we can’t outlaw it in all 50 states we shouldn’t try to outlaw it in some is naive.
I can envision at that point some of them clamoring for a federal law to outlaw abortion in all cases in all 50 states. They might even bus people in from those states which have outlawed abortion into those states which have not
Let’s say this happens. Now, let’s state a state has 50,000 abortions a year when it is legal. Now, what if just 10% of those choose not to get an abortion because they don’t go to another state, for whatever reason. That’s 5,000 lives saved that would otherwise have been destroyed. Sure sounds like an improvement to me.
and disrupt town halls of federal representatives by shouting down and demanding our United States Congressmen and women and Senators to do something about this.
But why should they yell at their US representatives and senators? This isn’t a federal issue, so why try to make it one?
 
I’m right here and now looking at the biggest explosion in government spending in the history of the United States. And who is sitting at the wheel other than Democrats.
Leaving aside the question of how much of that was TARP (quite a lot, as a bi-partisan effort), that does nothing to excuse the gross fiscal irresponsibility of the Republicans.
You say “long passed principle or ideal” as if it were shot dead, kicked, shot again, buried, and then shot again.
Right. It is reactionary to oppose the creation of the Federal Reserve or advocate pre-Civil War theories of state’s rights, or advocate for interpretations of the Constitution that would exclude the ability to prohibit child labor, or enact basic civil rights legislation. Totally shot dead, kicked, shot again, buried, and then shot again - deservedly so.
These principles and ideals are real, and they are espoused by the Catholic Church herself (see Centesimus Annus).
How so?
The negative connotation associated with reactionary invokes a negative emotional response, and I think it is used to purposely discredit the very movement.
I start with my fundamental understanding of what conservative thought is:
Russell Kirk defined the conservative tradition as essentially a critique of ideology in politics, first exemplified in the French Revolution and first exposed and criticized in 1790 by Edmund Burke’s eloquent Reflections on the Revolution in France. In Burke’s view (and Kirk’s) a normal or healthy political society reposes in the enjoyment of inherited traditions and practices. The art of politics is to preserve these general arrangements and, when necessary, to correct them by recourse to principles already intimated in them. An ideological style of politics, however, imagines an alternative order of politicsknown by reason, entirely independent of tradition and expressed in a set of abstract principles. For the ideologue, the task of politics is to instantiate that alternative (and philosophically “correct”) social order.
If we take conservatism to be essentially a critique of ideology, then Hume must be counted as a founding figure in the conservative tradition because he was the first to launch a systematic critique of modern ideologies. The critique is grounded in a distinction Hume makes between “true philosophy” and “false philosophy” that was forged in his first work, A Treatise of Human Nature(1739–40), and that runs throughout all his writings, including his historical writings. What Hume calls “false philosophy” is what we would describe today as “ideology,” a term unavailable to either Hume or Burke.
firstprinciplesjournal.com/articles.aspx?article=1312

Societies evolve. They should evolve slowly, and in accord with tradition and fundamental principles. Re-litigating issues from eighty or a hundred years ago is, in most cases, irrational and not conservative, because it is ultimately as disruptive as any other radical change. (Note: I said most cases). At some point, looking to the past becomes ideological and a form of social engineering.
And conservatives aren’t just reactionary when it comes to government.
Conservatives, as I define them, are not. The Tea Party candidates are.
The political will exists in some states. The political will of the nation of a whole is a lot less strong than the political will of individual states.
Unless we have uniform laws and some uniform enforcement, there will always be safe havens for abortion.
You know what I meant.
I’m not sure. Are you suggesting there is a Constitutional limit on federal police power that would prevent abortion from being federalized, or only a prudential limit?
 
I don’t either partly because some Tea Party folks, especially perhaps Catholic Tea Party advocates might not then be happy if just as a for instance, only some states outlaw abortion and others do not.
But that makes perfect sense for them not to be “happy” about such a state of affairs, doesn’t it and ask for federal legislation?
 
In regard to all the questions about what the Tea Party believes… Meet the seasoned Republican running the Tea Party Express.

newser.com/story/100805/meet-the-man-running-the-tea-party-express.html?utm_source=part&utm_medium=inbox&utm_campaign=newser

Rachel Maddow and Chris Hayes of I believe The Nation magazine were actually discussing this last night. Hayes’ view was the Tea Party is not all that new. Simply a rebranding of the Republican Party, if you will of the likes of other tweaks such as Goldwater’s or Reagan’s. So for those who want to know what the Tea Party views are including on things unrelated to spending, look to the Republican Party I guess. Because simply put the Tea Party is today’s Republican Party. Just an even more extremist conservative version. I think if I’m not mistaken, it was former President Clinton who recently said, the Tea Party makes George W Bush look like a liberal.
 
But that makes perfect sense for them not to be “happy” about such a state of affairs, doesn’t it and ask for federal legislation?
I guess based on their views, beliefs, and reasoning. But then why are some trying to say all they want is to return everything to the states when in the end they wouldn’t be happy with that state of affairs either and as you point out it would then make perfect sense to them at that pt to run back to the feds?
 
I guess based on their views, beliefs, and reasoning. But then why are some trying to say all they want is to return everything to the states when in the end they wouldn’t be happy with that state of affairs either and as you point out it would then make perfect sense to them at that pt to run back to the feds?
My view, as stated above, to the extent we can glean what they collectively think: they are incoherent reactionaries with nothing productive to add to public discourse.

That doesn’t mean they are always wrong.
 
Right. It is reactionary to oppose the creation of the Federal Reserve or advocate pre-Civil War theories of state’s rights, or advocate for interpretations of the Constitution that would exclude the ability to prohibit child labor, or enact basic civil rights legislation. Totally shot dead, kicked, shot again, buried, and then shot again - deservedly so.
Just because institutions do exist does not mean they should exist. That is the point. I don’t think anyone is advocating that after some clean sweep of the congress and senate that legislation be passed that completely wipes out all the changes made over the last 200 years in a single Congressional session. That would be disastrous.

However, conservatives and tea partiers are for the eventual dismantling of those institutions that are contrary to the enumerated powers in the Constitution. I fail to see how this is a position that should deservedly abolished.

Also, nobody disagrees with the ends. Limits on child labor and basic civil rights are good things. What person thinks turning back the clock, in principle, on these things? It is the means that bother people. The ends do not justify the means.
Read Centesimus Annus and the proper role of the state. What is currently in place denies communities of a lower order their proper role. The federal government is not the solution to the ills of the US.

Note that the opposition is to mostly to social programs at the federal level, and to federal interference in state matters. For example, why is it a federal problem that farmers are growing corn instead of wheat? Or that intra-state truck drivers aren’t keeping valid travel logs? Or that dams built on lakes have too much silt behind them? Or that duck hunters are using lead shot instead of steel? Really, why are these federal issues?
Societies evolve. They should evolve slowly, and in accord with tradition and fundamental principles. Re-litigating issues from eighty or a hundred years ago is, in most cases, irrational and not conservative, because it is ultimately as disruptive as any other radical change. (Note: I said most cases). At some point, looking to the past becomes ideological and a form of social engineering.
Again, nobody here is suggesting eliminating the ends achieved. The goal is to have the society of a proper order manage these issues. Why is the federal government taking upon itself the responsibilities properly delegated to communities of a lower order?

Further, I note that your examples deal with justice. Like I said, I don’t think people object with the ends of these federal cases of intervention. But what about other issues unrelated to justice, such as Medicaid, Medicare, NSF, Farm bureau, etc? The proper role of the government is not to provide services, but to guarantee fair and efficient access to services. Again, read Centesimus Annus.
Unless we have uniform laws and some uniform enforcement, there will always be safe havens for abortion.
Do we have uniform laws with regard to rape? Drunk driving? Theft? Indecent exposure? Trespassing? “Unless we have uniform laws and some uniform enforcement, there will always be safe havens” for rape, drunk driving, theft, indecent exposure, trespassing, etc.

But perhaps I see your point. In today’s society, abortion by many is not seen as an evil. Thus returning it to the states would not immediately lead to abortion being reduced to the same same levels as rape, drunk driving, etc. But it is a step in that direction. Waiting until we can outlaw it at the federal level will, in my opinion, take longer than doing it state by state.
I’m not sure. Are you suggesting there is a Constitutional limit on federal police power that would prevent abortion from being federalized, or only a prudential limit?
Yes, there is a Constitutional limit. Federal police power with regard to murder is limited to those engaged in some federal activity. Like the example I mentioned. If Joe Blow (not a federal employee) murders Jane Doe (not a federal employee) in a quickie mart (not a federal installation), it is not a federal crime. So why should the federal government get involved.

Similarly with abortion. If Jane Doe (not a federal employee) procures an abortion at Planned Parenthood (not a federal installation) from a doctor (not a federal employee) and paid for it with her own funds (not funded by federal tax dollars), why should the federal government get involved?
 
I guess based on their views, beliefs, and reasoning. But then why are some trying to say all they want is to return everything to the states when in the end they wouldn’t be happy with that state of affairs either and as you point out it would then make perfect sense to them at that pt to run back to the feds?
*Le mieux est l’ennemi du bien.

*Strawman. Many of us do not think we run back to the feds. In fact, many of us think the federal government has no role whatsoever. None. So why do you think it would “make perfect sense to them at that pt to run back to the feds”?
 
My original point that the TeaParty started as a Republican backed and corporate sponsored event It precludes it being a grass root movement.
Via, your point is well taken. It apparently is still Republican backed because for instance one day after Rove said something about NE Tea Partier Republican primary winner Christine O’Donnell saying nutty things, he gets behind the party’s nominee. And the Republican establishment Party then helps finance her. I’m guessing they have their share of corporate sponsored contributors. Go figure. 🤷
 
You know, after some thought, perhaps I am wrong on the murder side of things. Perhaps it is a prudential limit. After thinking on the 5th Amendment:No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation
But I’m still not sure. This is a limitation on the government, not on the people. The 5th Amendment isn’t the basis for laws against murder. But if it were expanded to general individual behavior (wrongly I would think), it could be grounds for outlawing abortion at the federal level.

Now, this is why I personally think things like a Constitutional amendment to define a person at beginning at conception as meaningless. It does nothing to affect laws against abortion. For states right now don’t base their laws against murder on any Constitutional basis (well, the federal Constitution anyways), so what good would a personhood amendment have? It would certainly prohibit the government from taking any action itself against the unborn, but it wouldn’t be grounds against private interactions.
 
My view, as stated above, to the extent we can glean what they collectively think: they are incoherent reactionaries with nothing productive to add to public discourse.

That doesn’t mean they are always wrong.
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
 
Just because institutions do exist does not mean they should exist. That is the point. I don’t think anyone is advocating that after some clean sweep of the congress and senate that legislation be passed that completely wipes out all the changes made over the last 200 years in a single Congressional session. That would be disastrous.

However, conservatives and tea partiers are for the eventual dismantling of those institutions that are contrary to the enumerated powers in the Constitution. I fail to see how this is a position that should deservedly abolished.
You don’t get to have it both ways.

If you want to discuss, item by item, various programs and their practical deficiencies and to suggest their reform or elimination on non-Constitutional grounds, that is one thing. But if you want to pretend to believe that our government is fundamentally un-Constitutional, then accept the logical consequence of that position. Otherwise there is really no common ground for discussion between those who want to improve existing institutions and those that, for ideological reasons, seek their elimination. Starting from a pre-determined ideological result, while pretending to want to work within the system incrementally, is insincere and does not ultimately allow for compromise.
It is the means that bother people. The ends do not justify the means.
Nice to look back, fifty or a hundred years later, after people give their entire lives to combat grave injustices, and pretend history could have happened in some alternative universe that is tidy and clean and adheres to some predetermined ideological recipe.

Nice, but not really very serious. We don’t consciously write history. We don’t get to go back and pick and choose and tinker to pull out this lynch pin, thinking the rest of the framework will remain. It is a much more difficult and generally reactive process.
The federal government is not the solution to the ills of the US.
Strawman.
Really, why are these federal issues?
I have a more fundamental question: what is your investment in an America neither you nor I nor our parents, or perhaps our grandparents, ever experienced, and which, to the extent that we understand it, was probably less desirable in most ways than our own time?
But what about other issues unrelated to justice, such as Medicaid, Medicare, NSF, Farm bureau, etc? The proper role of the government is not to provide services, but to guarantee fair and efficient access to services.
How do those programs hurt you? Do you realize that many federal programs are largely administered at the state level?

The main reason that most of these programs are funded at the federal level is because coordinated effort and resources need to be concentrated, and to avoid the freeloader problem. In other words, if state A adopts a program to take care of the poor or the elderly and state B does not, then state A is left with an unmanageable migration. If the goal is to stabilize farm prices, a piecemeal system won’t work. The reasons these are federal programs are fairly self-evident. Whether you, as a matter of principle, want government involvement in farm prices or helping the elderly on any level is another matter.
Do we have uniform laws with regard to rape? Drunk driving? Theft? Indecent exposure? Trespassing?
Largely, yes. The common law is pretty consistent state by state. The definition of rape in New York is functionally identical to the definition in Utah.

So, I’m not seeing the great benefit of state control in these examples, since the states all do the same thing.
Yes, there is a Constitutional limit. Federal police power with regard to murder is limited to those engaged in some federal activity.
And in the case of abortion, the nexus would be the federal interest in regulation of medicine.
 
You know, after some thought, perhaps I am wrong on the murder side of things… The 5th Amendment isn’t the basis for laws against murder. But if it were expanded to general individual behavior (wrongly I would think), it could be grounds for outlawing abortion at the federal level.
That’s ok Suudy. We’re human and any of us perhaps might be wrong on any number of things we believe or reason. But keep thinking and reasoning and perhaps you’ll get to the federal level yet on abortion someday. You probably have time because we might first have to turn everything over to the states before we could see if the Church would be totally happy with those results. My guess though based on a reasonanble amt of reasoning is unless all 50 agreed with the Catholic Church’s position, Rome wouldn’t be. But that’s only based on what I see and reason now. Peace.
 
Would the tea party cease to exist if it weren’t for Fox New? I think so.

mediamatters.org/blog/201008300026

Now Glenn Beck is telling them how to dress. I guess that makes him the tea party daddy.
I think a nice pair of cargo pants and a plain navy polo would be nice.
 
Would the tea party cease to exist if it weren’t for Fox New? I think so.

mediamatters.org/blog/201008300026

Now Glenn Beck is telling them how to dress. I guess that makes him the tea party daddy.
I think a nice pair of cargo pants and a plain navy polo would be nice.
Another one who doesn’t understand the tea party. Keep up with your assumptions. 👍 You got it all figured out.
 
The irony here is exquisite. Tea parties are sponsored by those same lobbyists and the same people who brroght us to the cliff. Too precious.
The current financial problems were caused by the meltdown of the subprime market. A market that the Democrats, especially Barney Frank, fought tooth and nail to keep from being regulated. I doubt many members of tea party are working with Barney Frank
 
Would the tea party cease to exist if it weren’t for Fox New? I think so.

mediamatters.org/blog/201008300026

Now Glenn Beck is telling them how to dress. I guess that makes him the tea party daddy.
I think a nice pair of cargo pants and a plain navy polo would be nice.
The happenings of the various tea party groups IS news, whether you accept it as such or not. Fox is not guiding the tea party folks. Just because the other networks do not report what is going on is not make it less newsworthy.
 
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