Tea party wins in northeastern primaries could bode well for Democrats

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Abortion on the other hand, is different, non-negotiable. Its wrong. Period. And needs to be elevated above debates on what the extent of the welfare state should be. We need to have the right priorities. The unborn should come first - as they are the most vulnerable and being killed daily. How could you disagree with that? Elevating the failed ideology of the welfare state above respect for life of the unborn is unconscionable and not something a Catholic should do.

Ishii
Ishii, if you and others on here want to, be my guest to contnue to vote on one issue despite Christ and His values certainly not being all about one issue. The word poor is found in the Gospels of the Douay-Rheims 23 times and throughout all of Scripture 240. The word abortion? Zero. Christ was not a one values issue kind of man when He was walking the earth. But if all of you want to be, go for it. And God bless you on your walks.
 
Hopefully we will have divided government so that perhaps the hole that our president is digging can be stopped. He has had a chance to turn this economy around and no one expected it to be done overnight. But what he has done is to totally ignore the will of the people and embark on a far, far left agenda. In doing so, he has thrown his own party off the cliff to achieve his very radical agenda.
I have to keep myself from laughing when I hear folks say Obama has been “far far left” and oh so very radical. I question if he’s even governed all that left. He wouldn’t have taken single payer off the table and he would have at the very least pushed for and demanded a public option if he was far left. Let alone far far. Hasn’t ignored my will other than as a result he perhaps hasn’t been far enough left. Godspeed our President hopefully to wield the veto pen in the next 2 yrs to give Americans time to see exactly what the Tea Party crowd is up to.

God bless and peace.
 
Why do we study history?
To give high school coaches something to do with their spare time, maybe?

Because it’s interesting. Or, to deepen understanding of the culture and other cultures. NOT to pretend to be able read tea leaves and predict the future or fashion current policy - that is, to turn history into pseudo-science at best or propaganda tool at worst.

I don’t think history builds your case, even if you want to use it that way.
But they don’t need to be, that is the point! We can achieve a good end and do it in a licit (not just legal, see below) manner. They didn’t do it the “right” way because it maintained slavery. That doesn’t mean it wasn’t practical to keep slavery, but it wasn’t the “right” way.
I don’t know what this means. You can suggest other alternatives to them in a fantasy game. But you can’t predict the consequences would have been of those untaken roads. I personally have no idea what the “right” decision was. The only way you can say it wasn’t “right” is by ignoring the reality they were faced with.

Let’s say a spouse commits adultry, and soon thereafter the couple divorces. Then the Church gets involved to decide whether the marriage should be annulled. You can say the adultry is wrong, and the divorce is wrong - but you don’t know what caused those wrongs to occur. I have written statements for friends in annulment proceedings, and there is a great deal of inquiry as to whether the couple should have been married in the first place, the maturity of the couple, etc. If the Church grants the annulment, what is the wrong? Is the adultry worse than the divorce? Does the fact that the couple didn’t adequately reflect remove the wrong from the divorce? You can tell each person to do it “right” next time, and that seems to mean mainly reflecting carefully before marriage. The problem with that is love is blind, for all of us - no one really reflects deeply enough (or we’d probably all be single, truthfully), and if we are not reflecting carefully, we are the last to realize it. So, lack of reflection doesn’t seem to be a sin, although apparently it explains or mitigates sins. You can criticize the divorce, the adultry, the marriage itself, the lack of reflection, whatever fights occurred, but you can’t unravel it, and you can’t say with any specificity what was the “right” way. That doesn’t mean that adultry and divorce aren’t sins. It just means that humans can’t unravel history, personal or collective, and neatly apply moral lessons. Saying adultry is wrong in that case is like saying slavery is wrong for the founders - it doesn’t illuminate.

This isn’t relativism or lacking ethics, but appreciating the difficulty of humans making hard choices in a fallen world.
You seem to be confusing licit with legal.
When we are talking about the law, there is only legal.
Finally, law is philosophy.
No, law isn’t philosophy, and politics isn’t ethics. I think this is the crux of our debate.

Every question has some ethical dimension, if you take the time to torture it out. The ethical dimensions of a city council deciding where to put stop signs, however, are secondary. War, abortion, and capital punishment have huge ethical dimensions, but aren’t free of practical considerations either. Politics and law are practical, messy, imperfect fields.

To imbue every practical choice with a primarily ethical gloss is counter productive. The scope of the federal government isn’t a moral issue. Too much centralization may have a moral dimension, and dropping services below a certain level may have a moral dimension, but I just don’t see that whether we have the Federal Reserve or NASA is primarily a moral question. I don’t see the point in debating them in those terms.
It is precisely this attempt to divorce ethics from law that has led to such disastrous rulings like Dred Scott and Roe v. Wade.
Those are very different cases, of course, but I don’t know what you mean here. Specifically, I think one mistake of Roe was to hold privacy, which is an ethical value, as a legal principle.
It’s called reductio ad absurdum
Which is usually a bad argument. If I want to say that we should lower the speed limit to save lives, you can say “then why don’t we just eliminate cars, if you’re so concerned about being safe?” Reductio ad absurdum sheds little light on most questions and leads you nowhere. It usually isn’t good argument (as opposed to a means to score a point when you are out of real arguments).
hyper-pragmatic approach
I consider something that is likely unacheivable in the next generation as an unrealistic goal. There may be reasons, in rare circumstances, I might continue to pursue a few select unrealistic goals. That isn’t “hyper” pramatic, or utilitarian, or unusual.
 
I have to keep myself from laughing when I hear folks say Obama has been “far far left” and oh so very radical. I question if he’s even governed all that left. He wouldn’t have taken single payer off the table and he would have at the very least pushed for and demanded a public option if he was far left. Let alone far far. Hasn’t ignored my will other than as a result he perhaps hasn’t been far enough left. Godspeed our President hopefully to wield the veto pen in the next 2 yrs to give Americans time to see exactly what the Tea Party crowd is up to.

God bless and peace.
Nonsense. Through guaranteed issue and community rating, PPACA turns the healthcare industry into a regulated utility. The new law has all the substance of single payer without the politically toxic term attached to it. The President got everything he wanted through the backdoor. What is fascinating is the fact the radical left has yet to figure this out.

The new House majority will be composed of more than 225 Republicans. With respect to PPACA, their agenda is clear. Defund it. Repeal it. Replace it. This will be a patient majority. And when President Romney takes office in 2013, large sections of Obamacare will be thrown into the ash heap of history.
 
Nonsense. Through guaranteed issue and community rating, PPACA turns the healthcare industry into a regulated utility. The new law has all the substance of single payer without the politically toxic term attached to it. The President got everything he wanted through the backdoor. What is fascinating is the fact the radical left has yet to figure this out.

The new House majority will be composed of more than 225 Republicans. With respect to PPACA, their agenda is clear. Defund it. Repeal it. Replace it. This will be a patient majority. And when President Romney takes office in 2013, large sections of Obamacare will be thrown into the ash heap of history.
You think the Tea Party is going to nominate Romney? Obamacare was patterned somewhat after Romneycare of Massachusetts. 🙂

BTW there is no single payer. There’s not even a public option. Other than the decent Christian thing to do of not allowing the denial of coverage for pre-existing conditions, just a mandate for everyone to purchase private insurance at a higher cost or you can keep what you have and keep paying higher premiums and copays and deductibles. And not enough regulation of the price because the private insurance industry is already raising premiums. It’s like it was with the credit card law. Gave the banks months and months to raise rates before the law took effect. Oh my those Socialists. :rolleyes:
 
Ishii, if you and others on here want to, be my guest to contnue to vote on one issue despite Christ and His values certainly not being all about one issue. The word poor is found in the Gospels of the Douay-Rheims 23 times and throughout all of Scripture 240. The word abortion? Zero. Christ was not a one values issue kind of man when He was walking the earth. But if all of you want to be, go for it. And God bless you on your walks.
Cmatt, How many times did Jesus say that its the govenment’s job to help the poor? None. On the other hand, he told the rich man to “sell all of your possessions and give them to the poor” So it would seem the pressure is on us to help the poor ourselves. Again, its not a matter of “either or” as you indicate. We can simultaneously help the poor while protecting the unborn. Help the poor, but don’t take the bible’s instructions to help the poor and think that they support the modern welfare state and Obama care.

What does the bible say about abortion? It doesn’t mention anything about abortion specifically, but it refers to the unborn as humans indeed: “behold, Elizabeth has conceived a son in her old age.” Elizabeth also refers to “the infant in my womb” leaping for joy. Not the “fetus”. Clearly, the bible is telling us that the unborn are infants. Its logical to conclude then that to kill the unborn is infanticide. Do you wish to subordinate the protection of unborn infants to your liberal redistributionist philosophy?

At our parish, we have a Shrine of the Holy Innocents. while praying at our shrine of the Holy Innocents at our church, I reached for the daily missil and opened it, with the intention of looking at the current readings. I opened the missal to a random page and here are the first words that I noticed: “before I formed you in the womb, I knew you.” (Jeremiah 1:5). That is the first sentence I noticed on the random page that I opened.

Cmatt, go ahead, advocate for the welfare state or policies that you value that you think will help the poor. But don’t forget the unborn. Let’s protect them first, then we can have a huge debate on how best to use govenment to help the poor.

Ishii
 
And I suppose the Republican Party today has never evolved since the one of Lincoln. :rolleyes:
In principle? Not really. They’ve had a more hardline stance favoring a military-based government since day 1. In terms of social issues? They started out disliking slavery, which is the only reason they were considered liberal at the time. In addition to that, the notion that no state could legally secede from the Union ran completely contrary to what students at West Point were being taught at the time.

The Republican Party has always been for big military and keeping an eye on the country, and our smaller neighbors. However, in terms of economy, business is the government’s friend, and especially so ever since the Pendleton Act of 1883 got passed.

The only regard in which the Republican Party has truly changed, has been the regard of social issues; aside from gun rights, the GOP has started to grow more lax. Which is part of the reason the Tea Party came in. The Democratic Party, however, has completely changed its stance on how big government should be, thanks in part to Andrew Jackson, FDR, and Keynesian economics (which don’t work at all)
 
Hopefully the “tea party” will become even more “conservative” in their view…and in doing so assist in alienating the moderate Republicans…then the Dems will most likely not loose as many seats in the House and Senate as was believed earlier…the “tea party” conservativism does not reflect most of the country…religous conservatives are a boon to keeping a Democratic government this election…come on religious conservatives…state your opinions LOUD AND PROUD…it will assist the Dems…not too many people want religious beliefs interfering with their lives any longer as dictated by government.
 
Hopefully the “tea party” will become even more “conservative” in their view…and in doing so assist in alienating the moderate Republicans…then the Dems will most likely not loose as many seats in the House and Senate as was believed earlier…the “tea party” conservativism does not reflect most of the country…religous conservatives are a boon to keeping a Democratic government this election…come on religious conservatives…state your opinions LOUD AND PROUD…it will assist the Dems…not too many people want religious beliefs interfering with their lives any longer as dictated by government.
Then you may be in a rude awakening when you see how many people think our country’s going in the right direction… The number isn’t very high. And the number of people who like Obama is being dragged down, too… You haven’t been to Ohio, have you? 😉
 
I have to keep myself from laughing when I hear folks say Obama has been “far far left” and oh so very radical. I question if he’s even governed all that left. He wouldn’t have taken single payer off the table and he would have at the very least pushed for and demanded a public option if he was far left. Let alone far far. Hasn’t ignored my will other than as a result he perhaps hasn’t been far enough left. Godspeed our President hopefully to wield the veto pen in the next 2 yrs to give Americans time to see exactly what the Tea Party crowd is up to.

God bless and peace.
This doesn’t strike me as persuasive, though to a devoted leftist it might seem so. Obama is on record as favoring single payer. The House passed it. The Senate wouldn’t. So, they did the next best thing and passed a bill that was bound to fail. And it will fail, because it will make it much more expensive for employers and nearly impossible for individuals to buy insurance.

But I will agree with the far left in this way: Obama has done exactly zero for the people most in need in this society. In fact, he did the opposite. He made the used cars they hope to buy more expensive by destroying 700,000 of them, and persuaded potential employers not to hire anybody.
 
Hopefully the “tea party” will become even more “conservative” in their view…and in doing so assist in alienating the moderate Republicans…then the Dems will most likely not loose as many seats in the House and Senate as was believed earlier…the “tea party” conservativism does not reflect most of the country…religous conservatives are a boon to keeping a Democratic government this election…come on religious conservatives…state your opinions LOUD AND PROUD…it will assist the Dems…not too many people want religious beliefs interfering with their lives any longer as dictated by government.
Except of course that virtually every law on the books has some kind of religious underpinning to it. Jurists used to admit that, but now that it’s politically incorrect to do so, they don’t dare. But they do follow precedent even so, for the most part anyway.
 
Of course, because being tagged with massive failures is a good way to attain one’s goals.:confused:
Lenin, I think, said it more succinctly than anyone else. “The worse, the better.” Of course, he had a lot more expertise in making bad outcomes caused by him to look like somebody else’s fault. Obama just isn’t as good at it.
 
Lenin, I think, said it more succinctly than anyone else. “The worse, the better.” Of course, he had a lot more expertise in making bad outcomes caused by him to look like somebody else’s fault. Obama just isn’t as good at it.
He’s also probably not a revolutionary.
 
Cmatt, How many times did Jesus say that its the govenment’s job to help the poor? None. On the other hand, he told the rich man to “sell all of your possessions and give them to the poor” So it would seem the pressure is on us to help the poor ourselves. Again, its not a matter of “either or” as you indicate. We can simultaneously help the poor while protecting the unborn. Help the poor, but don’t take the bible’s instructions to help the poor and think that they support the modern welfare state and Obama care.

What does the bible say about abortion? It doesn’t mention anything about abortion specifically, but it refers to the unborn as humans indeed: “behold, Elizabeth has conceived a son in her old age.” Elizabeth also refers to “the infant in my womb” leaping for joy. Not the “fetus”. Clearly, the bible is telling us that the unborn are infants. Its logical to conclude then that to kill the unborn is infanticide. Do you wish to subordinate the protection of unborn infants to your liberal redistributionist philosophy?

At our parish, we have a Shrine of the Holy Innocents. while praying at our shrine of the Holy Innocents at our church, I reached for the daily missil and opened it, with the intention of looking at the current readings. I opened the missal to a random page and here are the first words that I noticed: “before I formed you in the womb, I knew you.” (Jeremiah 1:5). That is the first sentence I noticed on the random page that I opened.

Cmatt, go ahead, advocate for the welfare state or policies that you value that you think will help the poor. But don’t forget the unborn. Let’s protect them first, then we can have a huge debate on how best to use govenment to help the poor.

Ishii
How many times did Christ say the private markets will solve all problems? It is “either or” when individuals, perhaps especially rich individuals, and faith based institutions have failed in solving or have been unable or unwilling to do it alone. And when people elect folks mainly because they are so called “pro life”, well at least pro-life until birth, it is “either or”. Many of these same folks who want the government to play a huge role when it comes to abortion also want the government’s role in other areas such as aid to the poor to be minimal or in the cases of some, a virtually non existent role. Look no further than here on CAF. 🤷

The Bible also says Exodus 21:22-23 If men quarrel, and one strike a woman with child, and she miscarry indeed, but live herself: he shall be answerable for so much damage as the woman’s husband shall require, and as arbiters shall award. 23But if her death ensue thereupon, he shall render life for life.

Many Christians interpret this to suggest the loss of a fetus was not as serious an offense as if the mother were to have been killed. If the fetus lost life the penalty was less than if the mother lost her life. If the OT believers believed in eye for eye, then it would have followed that the death of a fetus would have been eye for eye as well. But as we see in this instance the penalty for killing the mother was life for life but not so for the fetus.

That aside, in any case I argue that to help the poor by all means we have at our disposal is a Christian value. At times values may conflict in the voting process. But indeed you can be assured, Ishii, I will continue to look at all issues and not just one as I vote. And as a result of all the above, I often in good conscience must choose to vote for the candidate who shall advocate most for the poor, the sick, and not for war but for peace.

God bless you Ishii and peace.
 
Hopefully the “tea party” will become even more “conservative” in their view…and in doing so assist in alienating the moderate Republicans…then the Dems will most likely not loose as many seats in the House and Senate as was believed earlier…the “tea party” conservativism does not reflect most of the country…religous conservatives are a boon to keeping a Democratic government this election…come on religious conservatives…state your opinions LOUD AND PROUD…it will assist the Dems…not too many people want religious beliefs interfering with their lives any longer as dictated by government.
Publisher, nice post. :amen: We can only hope they state their views loud and clear or someone does it for them for Americans to hear in time. But if not by Nov hopefully by 2012. Peace to you.
 
Many Christians interpret this to suggest the loss of a fetus was not as serious an offense as if the mother were to have been killed. If the fetus lost life the penalty was less than if the mother lost her life. peace.
Jesus was a fetus.

Can you answer the question Pelosi couldn’t?
 
All these Dem dreamers and anti-GOP, anti-Tea Party pundits are forgetting the hundreds of thousands of us who will vote against the Dems no matter who is running against them; always have, always will.
 
Then you may be in a rude awakening when you see how many people think our country’s going in the right direction… The number isn’t very high. And the number of people who like Obama is being dragged down, too… You haven’t been to Ohio, have you? 😉
Everyone knows the conservatives are fired up and ready to go. Where have we heard that slogan before. 😃 There is no rude awakening. The party in power historically loses seats in a President’s first midterm regardless of party. Reagan did. Clinton did. And lo and behold they both were reelected 2 yrs later. More people vote in Presidential yrs too. Don’t you guys get too excited about 2010. Thank God 2012, 2014, 2016, 2018, 2020 are all light yrs away when it comes to politics. 👍 Everytime someone predicts the demise of one side, it re-emerges. That’s the history of American politics. We bounce back and forth between the Dems and the Republicans. 🤷
 
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