Teaching evolution at a catholic school

[JapaneseKappa]

So you do not think that losing the ability to reproduce is not a loss of ability once had?

Speciation , the formation of new and distinct [species] in the course of evolution. Speciation involves the splitting of a single evolutionary lineage into two or more genetically independent lineages. source speciation | Causes, Process, & Types | Britannica

None of what you have said here entails

Speciation is the loss of a former ability once had. The organism becomes more brittle and less adaptable.

Speciation is not defined as the loss of a former ability, it is defined as becoming genetically distinct. It definitely is not defined as becoming brittle and less adaptable.

In our case, the flies never had the ability to breed with other species in the first place. They went from being able to breed with members of their own species to… being able to breed with members of their own species.

Of course you can define “loss of ability” broadly enough that speciation implies loss of ability (e.g. you can assert “the flies lost the ability to be the same as they were before”) but at that point it is not a meaningful assertion.

 

[buffalo]

it is defined as becoming genetically distinct.

I just gave you the Encyclopedia definition. Yes genetically distinct. Why can they no longer interbreed? They lost that ability they once had.

Your argument is by becoming genetically distinct is a gain in ability? They are now more adaptable than before long term?

 

[JapaneseKappa]

Your argument is by becoming genetically distinct is a gain in ability? They are now more adaptable than before long term?

That becoming genetically distinct does not imply anything with respect to “abilities” as conventionally defined. As I pointed out, you can define “ability” broadly enough that the statement is basically tautological:

Of course you can define “loss of ability” broadly enough that speciation implies loss of ability (e.g. you can assert “the flies lost the ability to be the same as they were before”) but at that point it is not a meaningful assertion.

 

[buffalo]

That becoming genetically distinct does not imply anything with respect to “abilities” as conventionally defined. As I pointed out, you can define “ability” broadly enough that the statement is basically tautological:

Uh no. This genetic distinction means they can no longer interbreed. Is this a gain of information or loss of information?

 

[JapaneseKappa]

Uh no. This genetic distinction means they can no longer interbreed. Is this a gain of information or loss of information?

The different species couldn’t ever interbreed.

 

[buffalo]

The different species couldn’t ever interbreed.

Huh? Of course not. That is not what we are talking about. We are discussing having a parent that now lineage splits and the offspring can no longer reproduce with each other. Which one of these two populations has gained information? Did one retain and one lose information?

 

[JapaneseKappa]

Did one retain and one lose information?

They are both equally able to breed with members of their own species. No net gain or loss.

 

[buffalo]

They are both equally able to breed with members of their own species. No net gain or loss.

Right, but they can no longer breed with the former members. If they could, we wouldn’t label them as a different species.

 

[JapaneseKappa]

Right, but they can no longer breed with the former members. If they could, we wouldn’t label them as a different species.

But they can breed with the new species. So like I said:

Of course you can define “loss of ability” broadly enough that speciation implies loss of ability (e.g. you can assert “the flies lost the ability to be the same as they were before”) but at that point it is not a meaningful assertion.

 

[Rau]

When a lineage split happens there is one that that becomes more brittle in terms of its ability to adapt. Without this adaptability it cannot cope with environmental changes as its parents were. This leads to extinction.

You make no sense here.

 

[Rau]

Yup, they lost an ability once had. Genes broken and information lost.

An ability irrelevant in their new environment. And they gained an ability essential in their new environment. They are at the very least “all square”.

 

[Rau]

Speciation is the loss of a former ability once had. The organism becomes more brittle and less adaptable.

Do you have a reference for this definition and claim?

 

[buffalo]

Do you have a reference for this definition and claim?

Here is one:

Molecular signaling networks are ubiquitous across life and likely evolved to allow organisms to sense and respond to environmental change in dynamic environments. Few examples exist regarding the dispensability of signaling networks, and it remains unclear whether they are an essential feature of a highly adapted biological system. Here, we show that signaling network function carries a fitness cost in yeast evolving in a constant environment. We performed whole-genome, whole-population Illumina sequencing on replicate evolution experiments and find the major theme of adaptive evolution in a constant environment is the disruption of signaling networks responsible for regulating the response to environmental perturbations. Over half of all identified mutations occurred in three major signaling networks that regulate growth control: glucose signaling, Ras/cAMP/PKA and HOG. This results in a loss of environmental sensitivity that is reproducible across experiments. However, adaptive clones show reduced viability under starvation conditions, demonstrating an evolutionary tradeoff. These mutations are beneficial in an environment with a constant and predictable nutrient supply, likely because they result in constitutive growth, but reduce fitness in an environment where nutrient supply is not constant. Our results are a clear example of the myopic nature of evolution: a loss of environmental sensitivity in a constant environment is adaptive in the short term, but maladaptive should the environment change. Whole Genome, Whole Population Sequencing Reveals That Loss of Signaling Networks Is the Major Adaptive Strategy in a Constant Environment

 

[Rau]

This does not speak of speciation. And it is a highly specific claim that does not contradict the capacity for a population that has physically separated into sub-populations to subsequently develop better attuned to their new environments. Were your article disproving that, it’s authors would be Nobel prize candidates and on every Morning TV show.

 

[buffalo]

This does not speak of speciation. And it is a highly specific claim that does not contradict the capacity for a population that has physically separated into sub-populations to subsequently develop better attuned to their new environments. Were your article disproving that, it’s authors would be Nobel prize candidates and on every Morning TV show.

You asked for brittleness backup. I would add read the paper carefully. Also of note is the term “environment sensing” not natural selection.

Adding - This results in a loss of environmental sensitivity that is reproducible across experiments. This is experimental evidence of losing adaptability once had and becoming more brittle. Further in the paper check out “extinction”.

 

[poche]

While the Church allows the theory of evolution I think it is a bad policy to prohibit discussion and debate on this matter.

 

[Montrose]

While the Church allows the theory of evolution I think it is a bad policy to prohibit discussion and debate on this matter.

How do you know discussion is not allowed? I just checked forum rules and can’t see anything about this.

 

[puer.dei]

How do you know discussion is not allowed? I just checked forum rules and can’t see anything about this.

I think poche was referring to the OP saying the children weren’t allowed to question it in school.

 

[Montrose]

Montrose:

How do you know discussion is not allowed? I just checked forum rules and can’t see anything about this.

I think poche was referring to the OP saying the children weren’t allowed to question it in school.

Oh yes. You are correct.

 

[buffalo]

The public at large is becoming aware of the high complexity of the cell machinery. It is good to ask questions.