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rcwitness
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Yes!!! And that was their mistake, then! That’s how they were deceived.
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Xanthippe_Voorhees
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They weren’t deceived. They were presented with facts. The fact is that there is no good reason not to give two consenting adults those privileges.Xanthippe_Voorhees:
Yes!!! And that was their mistake, then! That’s how they were deceived.
There’s a ton of important religious sacraments in Catholicism that have no social ramifications…so no one wants them.
Basically what marriage was in the eyes of the law was a broken, grotesque farce well before gay marriage ever went to the first court hearing. Many of the discriminators again non-married close friends are directly correlated with the desire to obtain the married state.
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rcwitness
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You mean the status of marriage? You sure like to avoid the term in comments like this. I haven’t argued a single thing about privileges. Only the status of marriage.
I don’t know of one Sacrament that isnt intended to have social ramifications. But when Catholics neglect to uphold them, that sure happens. Then again, negative ramifications are still ramifications.
So abuse it more? And expect our children to receive it? No, I won’t feed this to mine.
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QwertyGirl
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Your children have to live in the world. Parents do a disservice to their children when they don’t tell them the truth about how the world works. It seems you only want to give them the Catholic version, or what you believe the Catholic version is. They won’t be prepared to handle things when they become young adults and are faced with reality. I suggest consier giving them full, truthful explanations. Then give them a lesson of what you think is moral or immoral about it. Sheltering kids is a bad idea, especially in today’s world.
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rcwitness
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I don’t think you have understood the situation, or what I’ve expressed.
We are talking about a 5 yr old!
I’m saying a 5 yr old is too young to differentiate Natural Marriage and Sacrament marriage from different types of Civil Marriages (in particular SSM).
What should be established in the mind of a 5 year old, initially and primarily, is that only a woman and man can Marry.
THEN, when they are old enough to understand concepts of State and Church laws, they can be appropriately introduced to such things as homosexual unions.
A young child will be confused when the concept of marriage (a mommy and daddy who make babies) is contradicted by the attempt to call a man and a man married, who cannot make babies!
We are talking about a 5 yr old!
I’m saying a 5 yr old is too young to differentiate Natural Marriage and Sacrament marriage from different types of Civil Marriages (in particular SSM).
What should be established in the mind of a 5 year old, initially and primarily, is that only a woman and man can Marry.
THEN, when they are old enough to understand concepts of State and Church laws, they can be appropriately introduced to such things as homosexual unions.
A young child will be confused when the concept of marriage (a mommy and daddy who make babies) is contradicted by the attempt to call a man and a man married, who cannot make babies!
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QwertyGirl
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But when the five year old makes a friend at the park who has two mommies, she just may tell that friend that two mommies aren’t allowed to be married. Bad. It may crush the friend (no 5 year old needs to be crushed that way), and the friend may also tell her she doesn’t know what she is talking about. Eventually, 5 year old will realize parents didn’t tell her the truth. Two mommies really can get married.
You see, you establish trust with your kids when they are little and the trust holds through adulthood, as long as you don’t do anything to break it. When kids start realizing their parents haven’t told them the whole truth, they realize their parents have only told them the part they want them to know. By the time they are teenagers, the trust is usually gone.
Honesty really is the best policy. 5 year olds “get” the difference between accepatable and unacceptable. Tell them there are different kinds of marriage and what you believe about them. If the kid has brought the subject up, it isn’t too soon to discuss it wholely.
You see, you establish trust with your kids when they are little and the trust holds through adulthood, as long as you don’t do anything to break it. When kids start realizing their parents haven’t told them the whole truth, they realize their parents have only told them the part they want them to know. By the time they are teenagers, the trust is usually gone.
Honesty really is the best policy. 5 year olds “get” the difference between accepatable and unacceptable. Tell them there are different kinds of marriage and what you believe about them. If the kid has brought the subject up, it isn’t too soon to discuss it wholely.
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rcwitness
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You are approaching the situation as someone who is already deceived.
What you are suggesting, is that because some people are deceived, and deceive children under their care, we must deceive our children so that we don’t expose the deception to them!
No, I will not deceive my child so that you can deceive your’s.
When my child is old enough to understand that some people try to apply marriage to people who Jesus says cannot be married, then I can explain in an appropriate manner.
I’m not going to normalize SSM in their developing mind.
You don’t see anything wrong with SSM, so you cannot see the toxic damage which the State is creating in our society.
What you are suggesting, is that because some people are deceived, and deceive children under their care, we must deceive our children so that we don’t expose the deception to them!
No, I will not deceive my child so that you can deceive your’s.
When my child is old enough to understand that some people try to apply marriage to people who Jesus says cannot be married, then I can explain in an appropriate manner.
I’m not going to normalize SSM in their developing mind.
You don’t see anything wrong with SSM, so you cannot see the toxic damage which the State is creating in our society.
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heidi_storage
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Two men cannot marry each other in the same way that the evaporation or sublimation of water cannot be described as “freezing.”
You may say: “That’s a ridiculous comparison. The laws of physics are very different from a social, cultural, legal institution. You may not like it, but relations between people are defined within their society, culture, and law. For better or worse, gay marriage exists whether you approve of it or not.”
This is a mistake. Marriage was instituted by God in the same way that the laws of physics were. Mind, its forms change, and it varies an immense amount from person to person and culture to culture–so far you’d be right–but marriage is a man and a woman together. Yeah, the kid is going to have to learn that the government calls something marriage that is in fact not marriage, but they shouldn’t be taught that this legal fiction is the same thing as marriage.
You may say: “That’s a ridiculous comparison. The laws of physics are very different from a social, cultural, legal institution. You may not like it, but relations between people are defined within their society, culture, and law. For better or worse, gay marriage exists whether you approve of it or not.”
This is a mistake. Marriage was instituted by God in the same way that the laws of physics were. Mind, its forms change, and it varies an immense amount from person to person and culture to culture–so far you’d be right–but marriage is a man and a woman together. Yeah, the kid is going to have to learn that the government calls something marriage that is in fact not marriage, but they shouldn’t be taught that this legal fiction is the same thing as marriage.
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rcwitness
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Wholely? Really?
What is the “whole” of it?
To me, it’s that the United States Supreme Court has been deceived in thinking, defining and establishing Marriage as something wrong and impossible. That takes a mature young person to understand. Especially because even mature, adult Catholics don’t even understand and appreciate the whole matter!
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Allegra
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The car insurance thing is usually based on a household. My insurance actually went down because I moved out of my parents house, and my step-father’s almost-uninsurable driving record was no longer considered. Even though I insisted that he would never drive my car, they felt my car was at greater risk by living at the same address. Ironically, it turned out they were right. He crashed his truck into my car while trying to park. Anyway, my point is, if you happen to marry someone with a crappy record, your overall rate goes up.
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rcwitness
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But none of that should have anything to do with defining natural marriage and who is able to be married.
Can a brother and sister be married? Why not?
Can a woman have multiple husbands? Why not?
How the State decides to treat those who are married is a separate issue. It shouldn’t work in reverse.
Can a brother and sister be married? Why not?
Can a woman have multiple husbands? Why not?
How the State decides to treat those who are married is a separate issue. It shouldn’t work in reverse.
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QwertyGirl
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Have it your way. As I have stated before, I feel an obligation to live peacefully with all of God’s creations. That includes people who don’t believe the same as me. It also means encouraging the same in my children. The world is a big place and there is plenty of room for all of us. I have raised children from birth to adulthood so I have plenty of experience in this realm. What I propose worked beautifully for me, the children, the family. You are free to figure out what works for you.
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QwertyGirl
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Wholely is that there are all kinds of marriages. You can say:
“Depending on what your religion is, marriage means different things to different people. Even if you aren’t in a religion, you can still get married at the courthouse by a judge or government representative. Some places allow two men to marry or two women to marry. We are Catholics. Our Church only allows for one man and one woman to marry. When you get older we can talk more about it. We don’t say bad things about other peoples’ marriages, because they might not believe the same things we do.”
That is how you handle it with the average five year old. I have done this before, and they get it.
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rcwitness
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“They get it”?
They get what?
What have your kids concluded?
They get what?
What have your kids concluded?
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QwertyGirl
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They get that marriage isn’t “one size fits all”. They get that just because me and my husband are married, and my sister is married to her husband, and her grandmother and grandfather are married, the friend’s parents at the park are different and it is valid. Valid to them. Valid on a secular level. And she wil “get” that if one belongs to the Catholic Church it isn’t valid (or “OK” in kids terms).
Don’t be afraid to tell kids the truth.
I will give you an example of why this is important to be fully truthful. I was raised in a Catholic family with Catholic parents who sort of agreed with your suggested way of parenting. I came home one day when I was 5 (in 1960’s) and asked my mom what a mixed marriage was and why it was wrong. It was back in the day when racially mixed marriages were being challenged where I lived. It was still against the law for a black person to marry a white person.
My mom tells me a mixed marriage is when a Catholic marries someone who isn’t a Catholic. I accepted that and went about my business. When I got older, I can’t tell you the disgust I felt when I realized my mom didn’t talk with me about the issue of the day. Mixed race marriage was a hot topic at that time. She knew what I was asking and she gave me the Catholic answer, instead. Maybe she didn’t want to talk about race issues with me because she wasn’t comfortable with it. I don’t know the reason why. But by the time I was in middle school and knew better, it diminished my trust in asking her about the things in life kids should feel comfortable about asing their parents. She gave me a truthful (as far as Catholics are concerned) answer, but she didn’t give me the FULL answer, which would have been that there are all kinds of mixed marriages. She could have gone over the most prevalent ones. Instead, she zoned in on the kind she wanted me to know about, to the exclusion of the rest.
If you want your kids to trust you, you need to be in the habit of telling them the whole truth; not just the part you want to zone in on.
Don’t be afraid to tell kids the truth.
I will give you an example of why this is important to be fully truthful. I was raised in a Catholic family with Catholic parents who sort of agreed with your suggested way of parenting. I came home one day when I was 5 (in 1960’s) and asked my mom what a mixed marriage was and why it was wrong. It was back in the day when racially mixed marriages were being challenged where I lived. It was still against the law for a black person to marry a white person.
My mom tells me a mixed marriage is when a Catholic marries someone who isn’t a Catholic. I accepted that and went about my business. When I got older, I can’t tell you the disgust I felt when I realized my mom didn’t talk with me about the issue of the day. Mixed race marriage was a hot topic at that time. She knew what I was asking and she gave me the Catholic answer, instead. Maybe she didn’t want to talk about race issues with me because she wasn’t comfortable with it. I don’t know the reason why. But by the time I was in middle school and knew better, it diminished my trust in asking her about the things in life kids should feel comfortable about asing their parents. She gave me a truthful (as far as Catholics are concerned) answer, but she didn’t give me the FULL answer, which would have been that there are all kinds of mixed marriages. She could have gone over the most prevalent ones. Instead, she zoned in on the kind she wanted me to know about, to the exclusion of the rest.
If you want your kids to trust you, you need to be in the habit of telling them the whole truth; not just the part you want to zone in on.
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rcwitness
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A couple things:
I have not implied to say anything else but the truth to our children. Nothing I said has been untrue. SSM is what is untrue. I would be deceiving my children to say ANYONE can validly marry two men. The State has done this, and so protecting my children from believing a lie, I must say that it is not true that a man and a man or a woman and a woman can marry. It’s a wrong definition of marriage. So in order to explain how the State has decided to define marriage in their own and different way as what it truly is, the child must be at a more mature level than 5 yrs old. Until then, they can rightly trust their dad that it is not marriage.
Second, you did not Express what your children conclude about ssm
You are pleased with their understanding, because they understand as you understand. I am pleased with my children’s understanding when it is compatible with my understanding. We guide them to understand matters as we understand. You want them to accept that marriage is relative to what each individual believes it to be. I want them to understand what marriage is to the creator of marriage.
I want them to trust Jesus, not necessarily myself. I hope they trust me, because I trust Jesus.
I have not implied to say anything else but the truth to our children. Nothing I said has been untrue. SSM is what is untrue. I would be deceiving my children to say ANYONE can validly marry two men. The State has done this, and so protecting my children from believing a lie, I must say that it is not true that a man and a man or a woman and a woman can marry. It’s a wrong definition of marriage. So in order to explain how the State has decided to define marriage in their own and different way as what it truly is, the child must be at a more mature level than 5 yrs old. Until then, they can rightly trust their dad that it is not marriage.
Second, you did not Express what your children conclude about ssm
You are pleased with their understanding, because they understand as you understand. I am pleased with my children’s understanding when it is compatible with my understanding. We guide them to understand matters as we understand. You want them to accept that marriage is relative to what each individual believes it to be. I want them to understand what marriage is to the creator of marriage.
I want them to trust Jesus, not necessarily myself. I hope they trust me, because I trust Jesus.
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rcwitness
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Matthew 19
Jesus said… “Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, no human being must separate.”
Jesus said… “Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, no human being must separate.”
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QwertyGirl
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If you told your children the whole truth, I would expect they would conclude that SSM exists for some people but that their dad doesn’t agree with it because his church doesn’t agree with it. In other wors they would conclude correctly.
My child, as most children do, concluded that what I told her (as her parent) was true. And it was. I am agnostic, so I left the religion part out of it. I did explain that marriage means different things to different people and that we don’t disparage anyone for their marriage.
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rcwitness
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Marriage is not relative. I will teach my children about State definitions of marriage when they are old enough to understand that.
I will also teach them that Jesus does not promote relativism. He defines marriage differently than the world.
They believe Jesus knowns best.
If you told your children what Jesus told us, they would probably believe Him too.
I will also teach them that Jesus does not promote relativism. He defines marriage differently than the world.
They believe Jesus knowns best.
If you told your children what Jesus told us, they would probably believe Him too.
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QwertyGirl
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Probably. Little children tend to believe whatever their parents teach them. It is as they grow they begin to use logic and discernment to decide what makes sense and what doesn’t.
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