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rcwitness
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Lol. Of course it’s not! It’s against nature!
It should never be relevant to her experience.
It should never be relevant to her experience.
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QwertyGirl
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LOL. I meant she probably hasn’t paid it any attention when she heard about it someplace else, and she may not know any families in that situation. LOL. Did you just blurt it out to her or was there a lead-up? LOLOL.
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rcwitness
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I opened the topic and explained the difference with State marriage and Church marriage. And that they disagree about who can marry.
You want me to convince her its normal?
You want me to convince her its normal?
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rcwitness
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Ummm… I didn’t say it was true marriage. On the contrary, I explained that Jeaus told us that a man and woman become husband and wife and are joined by Him. The State is confused in their minds and thinking.
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rcwitness
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Furthermore, as my children grow older, I will explain that their are certain impediments to Marriage which some Catholics exploit in order to leave the marriage, or receive a declaration that it was never a Marriage!
We are in times of great deception and abuses regarding Marriage. And I have committed my own sins against Marriage!
But our children deserve the Truth, and I am convicted and determined to help them avoid as many pitfalls, which harm us from a healthy respect for Marriage, as I am able.
We are in times of great deception and abuses regarding Marriage. And I have committed my own sins against Marriage!
But our children deserve the Truth, and I am convicted and determined to help them avoid as many pitfalls, which harm us from a healthy respect for Marriage, as I am able.
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rcwitness
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It’s actually not my way of thinking. Its Catholic Teaching that same sex couples cannot Marry one another. Not just Sacramentally, but naturally either! Catholics would be wrong to say same sex couples can Marry in any fashion. Yes, we can know that the State recognizes and declares them to be Married, and I’ve expressed that I will and now have, explained this to my children, when they are old enough enough to grasp that whole concept!Clearly we have two different viewpoints regarding the value of being honest with children. I am not going to convince you to my way of thinking. You sure as heck aren’t going to convince me to your way of thinking.
I’m not convinced it’s so much the method, but what we actually believe. If we believe that ss couples cannot be Married, even naturally, how can we believe the State has any authority to call them Married? It’s just not possible. It’s a serious deception! The Supreme court was deceived in their thinking, which attempts to deceive the whole Nation!I do want to be clear about one thing. I don’t want to dismiss the importance of parents teaching their faith to their children. It is so important. That isn’t what I have been debating. There are different ways of teaching your kids, and I just disagree with the method you propose.
Believe it or not, I have also. Yes we have fundamental differences of belief. It’s not simply a matter of “method”, but what we believe. But I’m glad you are here, and open to discussion.With that, I think I am going to bow out. It seems fruitless to continue on. I enjoyed the dialogue, though. Thanks.
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lonegreywolf20
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I think you may have been misunderstanding qwertygirl, and qwertygirl corredt me if I am wrong, please.
What I see her saying is that, whether it’s a valid marriage or not, same sex couples are getting married and in the secular world they are seen as valid marriages. This is a fact that cannot be ignored. Children can be taught that the Catholic church does not believe in same sex marriages and for Catholics it is not considered a valid marriage, but outside of the Catholic church in the eyes of the state and non-Catholics it is.
Also, I believe she was saying that it depends on the five year old and their maturity how they can be approached with the subject. Some five year olds will understand the points above, and some not so much.
My five year old is still not mature enough to understand it. Even though I and her mother are divorced, she doesn’t understand the concept of divorce either. She just understands that mommy and daddy no longer live in the same house and that mommy and daddy are still her mommy and daddy. That the people we are now with, are not her mommy and daddy, but that her mommy and daddy do love them. They are my girlfriend and her boyfriend. However, she doesn’t understand the concept of divorce. Not yet. When she is old enough and when my son is old enough I can teach them the whole truth, regarding divorce and same sex marriages.
FYI, I got a lack of form after my divorce because my ex-wife and I weren’t married in the Catholic church nor did we receive dispensation. My marriage wasn’t valid from the start and I didn’t know that till towards the end of the marriage, a few months before she said she was going for a divorce because she wasn’t happy with me and she wanted to be happy.
What I see her saying is that, whether it’s a valid marriage or not, same sex couples are getting married and in the secular world they are seen as valid marriages. This is a fact that cannot be ignored. Children can be taught that the Catholic church does not believe in same sex marriages and for Catholics it is not considered a valid marriage, but outside of the Catholic church in the eyes of the state and non-Catholics it is.
Also, I believe she was saying that it depends on the five year old and their maturity how they can be approached with the subject. Some five year olds will understand the points above, and some not so much.
My five year old is still not mature enough to understand it. Even though I and her mother are divorced, she doesn’t understand the concept of divorce either. She just understands that mommy and daddy no longer live in the same house and that mommy and daddy are still her mommy and daddy. That the people we are now with, are not her mommy and daddy, but that her mommy and daddy do love them. They are my girlfriend and her boyfriend. However, she doesn’t understand the concept of divorce. Not yet. When she is old enough and when my son is old enough I can teach them the whole truth, regarding divorce and same sex marriages.
FYI, I got a lack of form after my divorce because my ex-wife and I weren’t married in the Catholic church nor did we receive dispensation. My marriage wasn’t valid from the start and I didn’t know that till towards the end of the marriage, a few months before she said she was going for a divorce because she wasn’t happy with me and she wanted to be happy.
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rcwitness
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I understand Qwertygirl very well.
And I’ve expressed that. And how we should explain State laws and interpretations which do not conform with Jesus.
No, I don’t believe any 5 yr old can understand that. Some people think they can, but that’s because they want to believe they can.
Sorry about your relationship. Sorry no one in the Church helped you understand your mistake! You must have been quite distant from your pastor and Church Teaching??? No clergy knew you got married???
It’s this very lack of education that I’m so opposed to! I would think you, of all people would want to educate people better!!!
And I’ve expressed that. And how we should explain State laws and interpretations which do not conform with Jesus.
No, I don’t believe any 5 yr old can understand that. Some people think they can, but that’s because they want to believe they can.
Sorry about your relationship. Sorry no one in the Church helped you understand your mistake! You must have been quite distant from your pastor and Church Teaching??? No clergy knew you got married???
It’s this very lack of education that I’m so opposed to! I would think you, of all people would want to educate people better!!!
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lonegreywolf20
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Then your mistake is to think that some five year olds are unable to understand very adult concepts.
At five years old, I was around adults mostly and no other kids. I didn’t make a friend that was a child till I was about 8 years old. I knew many adult things because it would get mentioned in my presence and I would ask about it to understand it. However, I was also reading and writing before I went into kindergarten, so I was more mature in some aspects compared to my peers. Many five year olds know and understand more than you think.
It is okay to tell them that the secular world believes that same sex marriages are valid, but that the Catholic Church says a marriage is between one man and one woman. You’re not teaching them anything that is untrue or not fact. You are teaching them the way the world works and believes and you are teaching them what the Catholic church believes. You are not sheltering them and trust me, you do not want to shelter a child.
As for my mistake, I wasn’t going to the Catholic church at the time, kinda like I’m not now, but for very different reasons. I will only get into my reasons then however. I walked away from the Catholic church in my teens because I rebelled in my teen years against the Catholic church as many cradle Catholic teens are apt to do. I didn’t go back to mass till near the end of my marriage.
Was it a mistake? Yes it was, but a mistake I didn’t know about till I was already married and apparently towards the end of that marriage as I didn’t know that either.
My girlfriend who I am currently with wanted me to give another example. Her then four year old understand the concept of donating his body to science because he had asked body disposal when a person dies. She taught him about burial, cremation and donation to science and he was most intrigued by donating his body to science and after explaining it back to her in his own terms decided he wanted to donate his body. He fully understood what all of it meant.
The concept of same sex marriage being wrong in the Catholic church and okay to do in the secular world is easier to understand than death and burial, cremation or donation to science.
At five years old, I was around adults mostly and no other kids. I didn’t make a friend that was a child till I was about 8 years old. I knew many adult things because it would get mentioned in my presence and I would ask about it to understand it. However, I was also reading and writing before I went into kindergarten, so I was more mature in some aspects compared to my peers. Many five year olds know and understand more than you think.
It is okay to tell them that the secular world believes that same sex marriages are valid, but that the Catholic Church says a marriage is between one man and one woman. You’re not teaching them anything that is untrue or not fact. You are teaching them the way the world works and believes and you are teaching them what the Catholic church believes. You are not sheltering them and trust me, you do not want to shelter a child.
As for my mistake, I wasn’t going to the Catholic church at the time, kinda like I’m not now, but for very different reasons. I will only get into my reasons then however. I walked away from the Catholic church in my teens because I rebelled in my teen years against the Catholic church as many cradle Catholic teens are apt to do. I didn’t go back to mass till near the end of my marriage.
Was it a mistake? Yes it was, but a mistake I didn’t know about till I was already married and apparently towards the end of that marriage as I didn’t know that either.
My girlfriend who I am currently with wanted me to give another example. Her then four year old understand the concept of donating his body to science because he had asked body disposal when a person dies. She taught him about burial, cremation and donation to science and he was most intrigued by donating his body to science and after explaining it back to her in his own terms decided he wanted to donate his body. He fully understood what all of it meant.
The concept of same sex marriage being wrong in the Catholic church and okay to do in the secular world is easier to understand than death and burial, cremation or donation to science.
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rcwitness
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Yes, we disagree on several things.
Including this:
Death, burial, cremation and donation is much simpler!
Including this:
More than you realize has to be understood in understanding what is actually going on with SSM. “Secular world” “Natural Marriage” “Deception” “Sexual Relations between same sexes and its relation to Marriage”. Just because a 5 yr old can understand certain aspects of each of these things on their own, doesn’t mean they can fit them all together for a proper understanding of Truth and error happening.The concept of same sex marriage being wrong in the Catholic church and okay to do in the secular world is easier to understand than death and burial, cremation or donation to science.
Death, burial, cremation and donation is much simpler!
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lonegreywolf20
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Then you are very wrong to discount five year olds and what they are actually able to understand.
Five year olds understand more than you are giving them credit for, espcially those who are experiencing exactly what we’re talking about in this thread. I will agree that it is based on your child’s maturity level and what you think they will understand. I will give you that.
I think your maybe equating your experience with your own children and every other child out there. That is where you’re wrong. Not every child is your child. Each parent knows their children better than anyone else.
So handle your kids they way you think you should handle them, however, don’t make your way of doing things the blanket way of doing it for all kids.
Five year olds understand more than you are giving them credit for, espcially those who are experiencing exactly what we’re talking about in this thread. I will agree that it is based on your child’s maturity level and what you think they will understand. I will give you that.
I think your maybe equating your experience with your own children and every other child out there. That is where you’re wrong. Not every child is your child. Each parent knows their children better than anyone else.
So handle your kids they way you think you should handle them, however, don’t make your way of doing things the blanket way of doing it for all kids.
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rcwitness
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And I think your are wrongly over simplifying the issue.
It’s not a matter of merely understanding that one group believes this, and another group believes that.
In introducing this issue with a kindergartner, you have to teach them more than you think. I certainly don’t want to have a talk about why two men cannot be validly married because they can’t rightly have sexual intercourse with one another!
Yet, if I expect them to be able to know the deception of the issue, that has to be part of what is properly understood. It cannot be a natural marriage, no matter who attempts to “legalize” it.
The difference between me and you, is that your primary concern is not so that the child understands how it cannot be a true Marriage. You are only looking at how they can understand how one group says it is, and another group says it’s not.
It’s not a matter of merely understanding that one group believes this, and another group believes that.
In introducing this issue with a kindergartner, you have to teach them more than you think. I certainly don’t want to have a talk about why two men cannot be validly married because they can’t rightly have sexual intercourse with one another!
Yet, if I expect them to be able to know the deception of the issue, that has to be part of what is properly understood. It cannot be a natural marriage, no matter who attempts to “legalize” it.
The difference between me and you, is that your primary concern is not so that the child understands how it cannot be a true Marriage. You are only looking at how they can understand how one group says it is, and another group says it’s not.
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lonegreywolf20
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If you say so, I stand by what I have said and I believe you are seriously discounting fiver year olds and what they do and don’t understand.
As I said, you do you, but don’t make blanket statements for every child.
As I said, you do you, but don’t make blanket statements for every child.
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rcwitness
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I have an 8 yr old and a 3 yr old. They both impress me at times, and cause me to realize they are only a child still.
I’m not under estimating a child, but acknowledging the complexity of the situation.
Why do you think supreme court judges don’t understand this issue? They are highly mature and educated!
I’m not under estimating a child, but acknowledging the complexity of the situation.
Why do you think supreme court judges don’t understand this issue? They are highly mature and educated!
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rcwitness
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I think the disconnect between myself and some here, is exactly what we would like our children to understand.
Some of you are only concerned that the child understands one group says homosexuals can get married and another says they can’t.
I’m concerned that the child understands why homosexuals cannot get married.
In your approach, they still have to simply trust one group over the other. In my approach, they would actually understand why same sexes cannot marry. And that even though the State calls them Married, it’s a deception from their own point of view!
Some of you are only concerned that the child understands one group says homosexuals can get married and another says they can’t.
I’m concerned that the child understands why homosexuals cannot get married.
In your approach, they still have to simply trust one group over the other. In my approach, they would actually understand why same sexes cannot marry. And that even though the State calls them Married, it’s a deception from their own point of view!
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QwertyGirl
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RC, please come back in 20 years and let us know how this all worked out for your kids. My prediction is that they won’t be followers of the same faith as you. It is unfortunate because it doesn’t need to be that way. Teach your children everything you know about the world. If your faith and religion are as solid as you believe they are, then you don’t need to spin anything. Kids catch on to when the truth is being spun. It builds distrust. It is downhill from there. Teach them the whole truth, and always teach them what you believe and why. You are right. At some point they will decide for themselves what they believe. They may decide not to believe what you taught them, since it wasn’t the truth about the world. It was only the part you wanted them to know.
Good luck. I really hope I am wrong. But I doubt it.
Good luck. I really hope I am wrong. But I doubt it.
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rcwitness
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Its not spin at all.
Let me ask you… can two men Naturally Marry?
Let me ask you… can two men Naturally Marry?
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QwertyGirl
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I am not going to debate the definition of marriage with you. Clearly we have different ideas about it. Very different ideas.
That is the point. The Catholic Church hasn’t trademarked the word “Marriage”. It didn’t invent the concept of marriage. Marriage means different things to different people. Culturally, religiously, morally, etc.
If your kid comes home and asks you about SSM, it is because they have learned something about it or heard about it or have seen it someplace when you probably weren’t around. It deserves a full and complete answer. Your kids will learn your M.O. and they won’t ask you the very quetions one would hope kids would ask parents. I speak from experience. This is the way I grew up. My parents wer well-meaning people who thought they were doing the right thing. They sheltered me and my siblings and it backfired. We grew up and as teenagers they were the last people we would bring any of our quetions and concerns to because we knew we weren’t going to get the unvarnished truth from them, but rather the Church’s view. It would have been so much better if they would have given us the worldly answer and then had a conversation with us about the Church’s view, morality, etc. But they skipped a step. Your kid will eventually find out how the world works. It is up to you if you participate in that, or not.
That is the point. The Catholic Church hasn’t trademarked the word “Marriage”. It didn’t invent the concept of marriage. Marriage means different things to different people. Culturally, religiously, morally, etc.
If your kid comes home and asks you about SSM, it is because they have learned something about it or heard about it or have seen it someplace when you probably weren’t around. It deserves a full and complete answer. Your kids will learn your M.O. and they won’t ask you the very quetions one would hope kids would ask parents. I speak from experience. This is the way I grew up. My parents wer well-meaning people who thought they were doing the right thing. They sheltered me and my siblings and it backfired. We grew up and as teenagers they were the last people we would bring any of our quetions and concerns to because we knew we weren’t going to get the unvarnished truth from them, but rather the Church’s view. It would have been so much better if they would have given us the worldly answer and then had a conversation with us about the Church’s view, morality, etc. But they skipped a step. Your kid will eventually find out how the world works. It is up to you if you participate in that, or not.
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rcwitness
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My children will have a full understanding of all aspects.
But at 5 yrs old, I’m not getting into everything involved which would be necessary for a proper understanding. I’m actually pretty good at teaching, and presenting relative information.
I already expressed the depth I would probably go with my 5 yr old. You even liked it. It’s only an introduction, and they would conclude, “oh, well Jesus knows best.” Its not really understanding much at all. Its trusting like a child.
I take it you believe marriage can have various definitions which includes same sex. I obviously accept that others (including the State) have these beliefs. But they are contrary to natural law and the historical definition of Marriage.
What has happened, is that the SCOTUS has redefined the actual term, which alters what it means. And that not realistic. It would be better to give SS partners the same benefits yet call it something different.
But at 5 yrs old, I’m not getting into everything involved which would be necessary for a proper understanding. I’m actually pretty good at teaching, and presenting relative information.
I already expressed the depth I would probably go with my 5 yr old. You even liked it. It’s only an introduction, and they would conclude, “oh, well Jesus knows best.” Its not really understanding much at all. Its trusting like a child.
I take it you believe marriage can have various definitions which includes same sex. I obviously accept that others (including the State) have these beliefs. But they are contrary to natural law and the historical definition of Marriage.
What has happened, is that the SCOTUS has redefined the actual term, which alters what it means. And that not realistic. It would be better to give SS partners the same benefits yet call it something different.
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Elf01
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I’m not sure that you have. What would you say to your children if they make a friend or have a classmate being raised by a same sex couple?I already expressed the depth I would probably go with my 5 yr old. You even liked it. It’s only an introduction, and they would conclude, “oh, well Jesus knows best.” Its not really understanding much at all. Its trusting like a child.
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