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Michael_Mayo
Guest
I see no choice but to be unaffiliated or independent these days. Cafeteria politics
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Expatreprocedit
Guest
Yep. I would love it if the US developed something like the old-style “Christian Democratic” parties that Europe used to have, but I’m not holding my breath.I see no choice but to be unaffiliated or independent these days. Cafeteria politics
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Lily_Bernans
Guest
From what I’ve read in the past on there…yes, it is. It’s like me telling you MSNBC does not endorse Trump. Of course they don’t, they lean Democratic.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
I just don’t understand the whole third party movement. First off, it won’t be any more “moral” than any other platform. And second, you run the risk of electing fringe candidates with 34 percent support. Something seems unamerican about that. Not to mention most people clamoring for third party were the same ones whining about how trump was getting electoral vote wins with 35 percent of the voteI see no choice but to be unaffiliated or independent these days. Cafeteria politics
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Crossbones
Guest
Lincoln got less than 40% of the popular vote in 1860.
meltzerboy
New member
And how did his presidency turn out? Civil War and assassination.
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irishpatrick
Guest
Yes, and his Presidency obliterated true states rights.
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Darryl1958
Guest
That presidency turned out to be the final and definitive answer to the question that have been the bane of America since its founding, and that question was whether it really was self-evident that life, liberty and the pursuit of happyness were ttuly inherent rights or not.
Emancipation of slaves, eradication of a race-based institutional slavery, and a stronger union that went on to be the preeminent leader of the free world all emanate from Lincoln and American founding values emerging victorious from the Civil War.
I would say that presidency turned out very well indeed. More than even the American Revolution, it has set the course for the whole of human history from that point on.
meltzerboy
New member
Yes, of course. My comment was mostly tongue-in-cheek. Lincoln is one Republican President I admire; Teddy Roosevelt is another.
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irishpatrick
Guest
While the emancipation was a wonderful and needed result, the destruction of states rights was NOT so wonderful. And let us not forget the historical fact that Lincoln did not care about freeing slaves–he wanted to preserve the union.
I used to place Lincoln quite high on the lists of Presidents–but his destruction of states rights was terrible for this union.
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irishpatrick
Guest
Not me.
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pnewton
Guest
We do not know what a third party would look like in the future, any more than anyone saw the rise of the Republican part from the other challengers to the GOP. For all we know, the Republican party could return to it’s moral high ground. The Democratic Party could evolve to be democratic again. Even abortion is not an issue set in historical stone, as the nomination of Trump indicates.
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Michael_Mayo
Guest
I did not say third party. I said independent, unaffiliated with any party. That would mean voting for the best candidate each time regardless of party.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
I honestly don’t know what that means. Most people do that but consider themselves aligned with a party.
I’m independent is the new " I don’t even own a tv."
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Little_Sheep
Guest
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Little_Sheep
Guest
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St_Francis
Guest
It’s hard to say if Lincoln’s presidency turned out well or not, as we have nothing to compare it to. Maybe another president could have furthered the abolition of slavery without civil war; maybe another would have handled things better.
But to say that the US Civil War set the course for all human history since then? That is too much–think about it. And the centralization of US political power was, I fear, the beginning of the end.
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EricF
Guest
. I am right there with you. Anymore, Republican/Democrat have become nothing more than labels to give people a perceived reason to feel superior to the other side. I have come to dread election season. Otherwise normal, decent people wh I usually admire and respect, turn into uncharitable hateful things. It disrespects the system, it disrespects the country, and I dare say it disrespects our Lord. What is worse, given that I see this happening, I often find myself participating in these types of conversations too. I just really despise these seasons. Nobody’s candidate is going to “make America great again.” That’s not in their power. It is in ours. We must somehow demand better of first ourselves, and then, our elected officials. America was great despite our politicians, not because of them.
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Darryl1958
Guest
Sure we got something to compare it to.
We have the past to compare it to, and the present.
If Lincoln would have lost the Civil War, that means that the power of America would have been halved, or quartered, the West would have been settled at least as slave as free (probably more, as southern values, without slavery dominated the Wild West),and the idea of racial enslavement and a caste system of human rights would have been there in place of what America has become.
The other president that would have come to the fore if not Lincoln would have been the likes of Stevens or some other slaver. He would have done things better for the whites of the Southern but the idea of all men being created equal would have gone down the drain to the extent that he was successful.
Slavery and the acceptability of the right to own other humans was as common as mud the world over before the Civil War settled the question in blood. This is no small matter when it comes to the idea of universal human rights coming to the fore in the first place.
It is not hyperbole to say that the Civil War set the course of events since then, because a powerful America, the undivided America that settled the continent, and played the determinative factor in the era of World Wars that followed came out only because America emerged from the Civil war united.
Without Lincoln, or a president who did exact same thing as Lincoln, the whole course of human history, with democracy and human rights coming to the fore, would not have happened, because it is America that is central to those efforts.
There really is no way around that, no matter how many maybes are entered into the equation.
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Darryl1958
Guest
So many Southern Americans, with their misplaced sense of honor and Southern pride, dismiss the importance of the Lincoln presidency.
The fact is that Lincoln’s victory in the Civil War transformed the South too.
Southerners are no different than any body else in the West when it comes to no longer believing that blacks were made to be slaves.
This state of affairs came about because Lincoln won the election, and Stevens lost, the war was lost by Lincoln and lost for Jefferson Davis.
This is huge, not just for the South, not just for America, but for the world itself.
That has just how much influence that America has had on world history.
That is why it is contemptible that ingrates like Obama want to ###%% all away, as if America is not something special and unprecedented in world history.
The fact is that Lincoln’s victory in the Civil War transformed the South too.
Southerners are no different than any body else in the West when it comes to no longer believing that blacks were made to be slaves.
This state of affairs came about because Lincoln won the election, and Stevens lost, the war was lost by Lincoln and lost for Jefferson Davis.
This is huge, not just for the South, not just for America, but for the world itself.
That has just how much influence that America has had on world history.
That is why it is contemptible that ingrates like Obama want to ###%% all away, as if America is not something special and unprecedented in world history.
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