Teenagers and Church Music

[agapewolf]

Do the musical styles of these pieces match the solemnity and traditional character of true Catholic worship? Are the musical styles thoroughly “Catholic?” Do they represent Catholic theology and practice? Those are the questions I’m concerned with, personally.

I’m not really sure how to respond to this…
Dang. Apparently angels can have poor taste also, if this music resembles most of the stuff labeled under “Praise and Worship.”

I went to that kinda thing as a teen. I was raised in that stuff, remember. I’m not seeing the good fruits. I see kids in college without an adult faith.

A musical style cannot be inherently “Catholic”. Catholic is not a genre of music. A musical style cannot represent Catholic theology on its own.

As I have said repeatedly before, the arcs of the melody line, and the chordal structure of that particular song are very similar to the old hymn.

Taste is what taste is…it is opinion. It is people’s opinion here of how they are interpreting documents to match up what they want them to say.

I DO see the good fruits. I see many teens choosing very Catholic colleges. In 4 years of existence at one particular parish, there were 12 vocations. Teens are choosing to come back and assist the youth ministires and become full active memebers of the parish. I’ve seen college campus ministries change completely to being orthodox, and obedient because of these teens coming out of these programs demanding it.

 

[johnnydigit]

agapewolf, a advise you stop wasting your time arguing against a wall. it’ll only continue in circles and only cause aggravation. “no it doesn’t.” “yes it does.” “no it doesn’t.” “yes it does.”

“I’m not seeing the good fruits.”

we know it does, and we know it is justified. she doesn’t and won’t reason otherwise, so let her be.

http://img465.imageshack.us/img465/9510/internetargumentzd6.jpg

 

[PrayforMallory]

A musical style cannot be inherently “Catholic”. Catholic is not a genre of music. A musical style cannot represent Catholic theology on its own.

Yes it can. Gregorian Chant is inherently “Catholic.”

As I have said repeatedly before, the arcs of the melody line, and the chordal structure of that particular song are very similar to the old hymn.

You are trying to argue that stylistically the praise and worship genre is at its core very similar to Sacred choral works. If that’s the case, why good is it? Why is it necessary for these people to “feel something.” (a general Protestant complaint)

Taste is what taste is…it is opinion. It is people’s opinion here of how they are interpreting documents to match up what they want them to say.

The statements of the Roman Pontiff are pretty cut and dry. I didn’t notice any ambiguity in them. To the contrary, they seem pretty straightforward.

I DO see the good fruits. I see many teens choosing very Catholic colleges. In 4 years of existence at one particular parish, there were 12 vocations. Teens are choosing to come back and assist the youth ministires and become full active memebers of the parish. I’ve seen college campus ministries change completely to being orthodox, and obedient because of these teens coming out of these programs demanding it.

I don’t doubt that it can produce vocations. So can the Neo-Catechumenals. The issue is, does it encourage full Catholicity, a sense of Romanitas, a strong element of Catholic identity and loyalty to the message of the historic Church?

Or does it encourage a Sensus Fidelis that is essentially Protestant at its core (religion as emotional experience, with an emphases of participation instead of an internalized, intellectual understanding).

Basically, can it flower into a full adult faith? Or do the kids remain perpetually childlike in terms of understanding and faith?

 

[PrayforMallory]

agapewolf, a advise you stop wasting your time arguing against a wall. it’ll only continue in circles and only cause aggravation. “no it doesn’t.” “yes it does.” “no it doesn’t.” “yes it does.”

http://img465.imageshack.us/img465/9510/internetargumentzd6.jpg

Let’s see. His argument has been based on several premises:

1. The idea that Praise of Worship is stylistically very similar to Mozart.
2. A private revelation about some guy having an angel write a piece of music for him.
3. That our “little t” musical tradition ought to be scrapped just because he can’t relate to it, when it is completely intertwined with the historic faith, the saints, the greatest heights of Western Civilization, etc.

Not much to really argue against.

The actual substantive posts on this thread, i.e. posts of the Roman Pontiff, have been pretty much ignored, as have the substantive statements of others.

The basic gist? Catholicism is hard. It’s hard to “relate” to. It takes study, surrender, and patience, and yet somehow we throw out centuries of tradition, in a vain attempt to imbue a superficial sense of faith into the young, oftentimes against their own sensibilities and wishes. I lived through this myself, so I’m well-aware of how destructive creating a “Christian Teen” culture is. These kids need to be reading the writings of the Holy Father,

 

[aloysiusg]

agape - please listen to johnnydigit - you are commendable for fighting the good fight here, but it is one that cannot be won. Johnny - love that picture - where did you find it?

 

[agapewolf]

Let’s see. His argument has been based on several premises:

1. The idea that Praise of Worship is stylistically very similar to Mozart.
2. A private revelation about some guy having an angel write a piece of music for him.
3. That our “little t” musical tradition ought to be scrapped just because he can’t relate to it, when it is completely intertwined with the historic faith, the saints, the greatest heights of Western Civilization, etc.

Not much to really argue against.

The actual substantive posts on this thread, i.e. posts of the Roman Pontiff, have been pretty much ignored, as have the substantive statements of others.

The basic gist? Catholicism is hard. It’s hard to “relate” to. It takes study, surrender, and patience, and yet somehow we throw out centuries of tradition, in a vain attempt to imbue a superficial sense of faith into the young, oftentimes against their own sensibilities and wishes. I lived through this myself, so I’m well-aware of how destructive creating a “Christian Teen” culture is. These kids need to be reading the writings of the Holy Father,

Yea, I’m done. This isn’t the argument at all. Way to twist everything…Good JOB! I’ve never claimed any of that…thats pretty rotten, and this is how insults happen under the radar.

 

[benedictgal]

Yea, I’m done. This isn’t the argument at all. Way to twist everything…Good JOB! I’ve never claimed any of that…thats pretty rotten, and this is how insults happen under the radar.

Actually, I return to my original challenge, agapewolf. Why not teach the teenagers something that the Church has been doing for several centuries and is deeply rooted in Sacred tradition? After all, it is the music of the Church and it is the music that is specifically mentioned in all of the liturgical documents and the writings of the popes, including the founder of World Youth Day.

The big problem is that contemporary music is simply entertainment with little to no substance. The tired “Our God is an Awsome God” and “Shine, Jesus, Shine” lack any of the theological depth and sublime beauty of hymns such as “Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence”, “Attende Domine” and even the later translation of “Where Charity and Love Prevail”.

The Spriit and Song book is nothing more than a repackaged Protestant Praise and Worship manual designed to make the collection appear Catholic, which is far from the truth.

You mention the 'rrewrite" of All Creatures of Our God and King. One of the songs in the book is a horrible rewrite of Come, Holy Ghost where the author makes the community more important than the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity. Is this an improvement? Hardly. Furthemrore, all of these songs emphasize the person and or community. It’s more about the Me and the We than about HE. This is not what the Church is about at all.

Something else that the proponents and defenders of LifeTeen fail to realize is that the Fathers of the 2005 Synod on the Eucharist found that the type of music used at Youth Masses was problematic. These are bishops talking here. Furthermore, Benedict devoted a section to the problems of this kind of music in his book, The Spirit of the Liturgy. Have any of these supporters bothered to read both documents? Have any bothered to read what the Holy See says about sacred music?

It will be interesting to see how World Youth Day will play out this year.

 

[snhs]

I’m not really sure how to respond to this…Dang. Apparently angels can have poor taste also, if this music resembles most of the stuff labeled under “Praise and Worship.”

Perhaps its worth remembering that it was some of the Angels who fell along with Satan.

I completely agree with your position, but you’ll never persuade some people that nurturing a mature faith is better for children than listening to a bit of feel good music on a Sunday. The best thing we can do for young people is to expose them to authentic Catholic truth rather than going in for superficial and often morally vacuous gimmicks.

 

[benedictgal]

Perhaps its worth remembering that it was some of the Angels who fell along with Satan.

I completely agree with your position, but you’ll never persuade some people that nurturing a mature faith is better for children than listening to a bit of feel good music on a Sunday. The best thing we can do for young people is to expose them to authentic Catholic truth rather than going in for superficial and often morally vacuous gimmicks.

That is quite true. When I lived my Cursillo, it was with the younger crowd because it was the only one in English. During adoration, the music leader played some horrible praise and worship music and was encouraging everyone to clap and shout in front of the Blessed Sacrament. This was highly inappropriate. This was the time for contemplation not for having what amounted to a sacramental hoe-down complete with whooping and hollering.

The retreat also fell on Pentecost weekend. Not a word was mentioned about the Holy Spirit. No one even knew the words to Come, Holy Ghost. It was most discouraging. While the talks were interesting, the music was superficial and not at all conducive to creating a Sensus Fideum. This is what I suspect also happens at the LifeTeen liturgies as well (I happened to be at one that I couldn’t escape from). It was not at all conducive to expressing the sublime dignity and majesty of God.

What is worse is that the Salesians have adopted this aproach to their school Masses, which has disturbed many priests. I have since forwarded authoritative Church documentation to the diocesan Superintendent who managed to stop their liturgical dance stuff. Now, we have to fix the music.

 

[agapewolf]

\

This is what I suspect also happens at the LifeTeen liturgies as well (I happened to be at one that I couldn’t escape from).

 

[agapewolf]

I cannot believe that people would even insinuate that music that has had lyrics impramatured would be influenced by Satan

The whole implications of this thread are just absolutely unbelievable.

Real discussions cannot even take place with the passive aggressive nature. I’m out.

 

[benedictgal]

SO you haven’t even been to one? Oh my gosh. I see it all clearly now.

 

[johnnydigit]

agape - please listen to johnnydigit - you are commendable for fighting the good fight here, but it is one that cannot be won. Johnny - love that picture - where did you find it?

actually i was just defending Christian music outside of Mass. we won’t be able to extinguish it in Mass with the teens overnight, but perhaps we can train the leaders to know that traditional music should be the eventual target in the evolution of the teens’ spirituality. maybe they can at least introduce it to them and show them that this is what our Pope wants and where the Church is heading.

i have been to LifeTeen events, and the results vary from parish to parish. i was proud to see an entire auditorium of 3000+ rowdy teens suddenly kneel in complete silence the moment the Blessed Sacrament was processed out. that could be a good time to introduce some traditional benediction songs in English/Latin. it can inspire a further sense of awe since they are aware of the real presence.

 

[Sarabande]

actually i was just defending Christian music outside of Mass. we won’t be able to extinguish it in Mass with the teens overnight, but perhaps we can train the leaders to know that traditional music should be the eventual target in the evolution of the teens’ spirituality. maybe they can at least introduce it to them and show them that this is what our Pope wants and where the Church is heading.

i have been to LifeTeen events, and the results vary from parish to parish. i was proud to see an entire auditorium of 3000+ rowdy teens suddenly kneel in complete silence the moment the Blessed Sacrament was processed out. that could be a good time to introduce some traditional benediction songs in English/Latin. it can inspire a further sense of awe since they are aware of the real presence.

I think this is probably one of the better ways of implementing and teaching something that has become foreign to many. Because there has been the blurring of lines and a basic lack of education between “sacred” and “religious” music, it really isn’t surprising that these discussions/debates are happening now. I also realize that in terms of the music itself for whatever spiritual enjoyment that some people have taken from it outside of mass can’t be negated. Like you, I have no problem with this music outside of mass, even though it is not my cup of tea in any realm. Anyone who are on these forums know my beliefs on sacred music and music in general.

I’m personally pleased that there is an allowance of other sacred music. There has been such a wonderful musical library of spiritually inspired music that have lived up to the original sacred music standards throughout the centuries. If this wasn’t allowed, we’d only have chant - which is really the only true sacred music in almost any ancient religion as chant was originally used for sacred reasons and not secular, whereas all other forms had secular origins which were refined to be acceptable in the sacred realms. People forget that even polyphony in its earliest forms was considered crude and even banned by some popes until the 1300s when Guillaume de Machaut composed the first acceptable “sacred” polyphony which was refined to be an example of future polyphonic sacred/religious compositions.

but perhaps we can train the leaders to know that traditional music should be the eventual target in the evolution of the teens’ spirituality. maybe they can at least introduce it to them and show them that this is what our Pope wants and where the Church is heading.

I know I requoted this. Yes, this is important, but I’ve also found that it is just as important to find leaders who have a sincere love or reverence of that music. If that is not sincere and true within the teacher or leader, I’ve found that it can’t be fully instilled in the people they are influencing. I’ve known contemporary musicians who don’t have much love for any kind of traditional music and will say that they tried very hard to “teach” or “instill” a reverence or appreciation for chant or other traditional forms, but it just didn’t go over well. I believe it is much easier to instill an enthusiasm for it if you are sincere with the love or at least the reverence of this music.

At the same time, a more classically-trained musician who will usually have a love of this sacred music naturally, must also keep their hearts and souls open and loving when instilling this music. They must remind themselves where most of the people are coming from. They can’t force it upon people - patience is key. I’ve seen it done successfully when this is employed properly and with love to all generations.

It can be a vicious cycle. Musicians or enthusiasts on both sides can become very bitter and closed to each other. And I am first to admit that I have been caught up in the cycle at one time or another, as I believe most church musicians have. But as I’ve grown deeper in my understanding and love of music and in my own spiritual journey, it’s easier to get out of the cycle. Learning and revelation can’t happen without an open and loving heart.

Anyway, those are my thoughts.

 

[PrayforMallory]

agape - please listen to johnnydigit - you are commendable for fighting the good fight here, but it is one that cannot be won. Johnny - love that picture - where did you find it?

They aren’t addressing any of the topics at hand, including directives from the Supreme Pontiff.

Obviously, they cannot win the argument.

 

[PrayforMallory]

Yea, I’m done. This isn’t the argument at all. Way to twist everything…Good JOB! I’ve never claimed any of that…thats pretty rotten, and this is how insults happen under the radar.

Go back and read your posts. You stated all of that and more.

 

[PrayforMallory]

actually i was just defending Christian music outside of Mass. we won’t be able to extinguish it in Mass with the teens overnight, but perhaps we can train the leaders to know that traditional music should be the eventual target in the evolution of the teens’ spirituality. maybe they can at least introduce it to them and show them that this is what our Pope wants and where the Church is heading.

i have been to LifeTeen events, and the results vary from parish to parish. i was proud to see an entire auditorium of 3000+ rowdy teens suddenly kneel in complete silence the moment the Blessed Sacrament was processed out. that could be a good time to introduce some traditional benediction songs in English/Latin. it can inspire a further sense of awe since they are aware of the real presence.

Then why the argument? People can listen to what they want outside of Mass.

Whether or not what they listen to is good music, is beyond me.

Trite lyrics, simplicity of sentiment, lack of depth, conventional musical arrangements and unoriginal instrumentation. The Contemporary Christian stuff can be criticized in the same way secular Pop can.

 

[benedictgal]

Pope Benedict has written a plethora of articles on Sacred Music. This little gem comes from his second book on the liturgy, A New Song for the Lord. I believe that this section sums up what many of us in this thread are saying:

The new phase of the will to liturgical reform no longer sees its foundation explicitly in the words of the Second Vatican Council but in its “spirit”. As a symptomatic text, I shall use here the learned and clearly drafted article on song and music in the Church in the Nouvo Dizionario di Liturgia. The high artistic rank of Gregorian Chant or of classical polyphony is in no way contested here. It is not even a question of playing off congregational activity against elitist art. Nor is the rejection of a historicist rigidification, which only copies the past and remains without a present and a future, the real point at issue. It is rather a question of a basically new understanding of liturgy which one wishes to use in order to surpass the Council whose Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy bears two souls within itself.2

Let us briefly attempt to familiarize ourselves with this conception in its fundamental characteristics. The liturgy takes its point of departure — we are told — from the gathering of two or three who have come together in the name of Christ.3 This reference to the Lord’s words of promise in Matthew 18:20 sounds harmless and traditional at first hearing. But it receives a revolutionary turn when one isolates this one biblical text and contrasts it with the whole liturgical tradition. For the two or three are now placed in opposition to an institution with its institutional roles, and to every “codified program”. Thus this definition comes to mean: it is not the Church that precedes the group but the group that precedes the Church. It is not the Church as an integral entity that carries the liturgy of the individual group or community; rather the group is itself the specific place of the origin for the liturgy. Thus the liturgy does not grow out of a common given, a “rite” (which as a “codified program” now becomes a negative image of bondage); it arises on the spot from the creativity of those who are gathered.
In such a sociological language, the sacrament of orders presents itself as an institutional role which has created a monopoly for itself and dissolved the [Church’s] original unity and solidarity by means of the institution.4 Under these circumstances, we are told, music then became a language of the initiates just like Latin, “the language of the other Church, namely, of the institution and its clergy”.5

In other words, the dangerous trend that a lot of these contemporary pieces espouse is a celebration of the community, rather than gearing it and centering it on God. Notice that most of these songs begin with “I” or “we”, making us the actors in the song and putting the focus on us, rather than on the Lord. “Lord, I Lift Your Name on High”, which is found in the OCP pseudo Catholic songbook, Spirit and Song, does not come from a bona fide Catholic author; rather, it comes from the Time/LIfe Praise and Worship Anthems CD.

Furthermore, this kind of music is “performed” using secular pop music melodies and instruments, turning the Mass into a concert rather than the Holy Sacrifice. The music is supposed to draw us into the salvific mysteries that are about to unfold before us and penetrate our hearts and souls. Having a full set of keyboards, drums, electric guitars and whatnaught does nothing, absolutely nothing and contributes zilch to the sacred and divine worship of God that is contained in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

 

[benedictgal]

In a New Song for the Lord, Pope Benedict also makes these observations:

The content of Pius X’s motu proprio on sacred music [Tra le sollecitudini] is finally designated as a “culturally shortsighted and theologically empty ideology of sacred music”.10 Here, of course, it is not only sociologism that is at work but a total separation of the New Testament from the history of the Church, and this in turn is linked with a theory of decline, such as is characteristic for many Enlightenment situations: purity lies only in the original beginnings with Jesus. The entire further history appears as a “musical adventure with disoriented and abortive experiences” which one “must now bring to an end” in order finally to begin again with what is right.11

But what does the new and better look like? The leading concepts have already been indicated in previous allusions. We must now pay attention to their closer concretization. Two basic values are clearly formulated. The “primary value” of a renewed liturgy, we are told, is “the full and authentic action of all persons”.12 Accordingly, Church music means first and foremost that the “people of God” represents its identity in song. The second value decision operative here is likewise already addressed: music shows itself as the power that effects the coherence of the group. The familiar songs are, as it were, the identifying marks of a community.13 From this perspective, the main categories of the musical formation of the liturgy arise: the project, the program, the animation, the direction. The how, we are told, is more important than the what.14 The ability to celebrate is above all the “ability to do”. Music must above all be “done”.15

Here, the Holy Father is presenting the views of proponents of contemporary music. Notice how these misguided folks view the Mass as some community experience and how the music must identify the community. Contemporary praise and worship music works best with Protestant services because these ecclesial communities don’t have anything else other than the Word. They do not have the Sacrifice. However, the Mass is the truest expression of worship because it has both the Word and the Sacrifice.

It has become clear that the primacy of the group comes from the understanding of the Church as institution which, in turn, is based on an idea of freedom that cannot be united with the idea and reality of the institutional and is unable to perceive the dimension of mystery in the reality of the Church. Freedom is understood in terms of the leading ideas “autonomy” and “emancipation”. It is concretized in the idea of creativity which against this background becomes a direct antithesis to the objectivity and positivity that belong to the essence of the Church’s liturgy. The group always has to fabricate itself anew, only then is it free. At the same time, we saw that any liturgy deserving of the name is radically opposed to this. It is against historical caprice which knows no development and thus gropes in the dark and against an unrepeatability which is also exclusivity and loss of communication over and above individual groupings. It is not against the technical, but it is against the artificial in which man creates a counterworld and loses sight of God’s creation in his heart. The oppositions are clear. It is also clear from the beginning that the inner foundation of the group mentality comes from an autonomously conceived idea of freedom. But we must now ask about the anthropological program on which the liturgy as understood by the Church’s faith rests.

So far, the proponents of this banal and trite music have not contributed one shred of legitimate and authoritative documentation from the Holy See that would substantiate their claims. Furthermore, when documentation from the Servant of God, Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI have been presented that clearly make a strong case against this type of music, they resort to personal attacks simply because they have nothing to support them.

The music must reflect the liturgy. We pray as we believe. Unfortunately, there are some who are so enamored with their particular movements that they cannot see this very fundamental truth.

 

[benedictgal]

In this final three-part post, I submit to you Pope Benedict’s conclusion regarding the issue of sacred music:

There is agitation music which animates man for different collective purposes. There is sensual music which leads man into the erotic or essentially aims in other ways at sensual feelings of pleasure. There is light music which does not wish to say anything but only to break up the burden of silence. There is rationalistic music in which the tones serve only rational constructions but in which no real penetration of spirit and sensibility results. One would have to include many sterile catechism songs and modern hymns constructed under commission here. The music that corresponds to the liturgy of the incarnate Christ raised up on the cross lives from another, greater and broader synthesis of spirit, intuition, and sensuous sound. One can say that Western music, from Gregorian chant through the cathedral music and the great polyphony, through the renaissance and baroque music up until Bruckner and beyond, has come from the inner wealth of this synthesis and developed it in the fullness of its possibilities.

This greatness exists only here because it alone was able to grow out of this anthropological ground that joined the spiritual and the profane in an ultimate human unity. This unity is dissolved in the measure that this anthropology disappears. The greatness of this music is, for me, the most immediate and the most evident verification of the Christian image of man and of the Christian faith in redemption that history offers us. He who is touched by it knows somehow in his heart that the faith is true, even if he still has a long way to go to re-enact this insight with reason and will.

That means that the liturgical music of the Church must be ordered to that integration of human being that appears before us in faith in the Incarnation. Such a redemption is more laborious than that of intoxication. But this labor is the exertion of truth itself. In one respect, it must integrate the senses into the spirit; it must correspond to the impulse of the sursum corda [lift up your hearts]. However, it does not will a pure spiritualization but an integration of sensibility and spirit so that both become person in one another. It does not debase the spirit when it takes the senses up into itself, but first brings it the whole wealth of creation. And it does not make the senses less real when they are penetrated by the spirit, rather, in this way they first receive a share in its infinity. Every sensual pleasure is strictly circumscribed and is ultimately incapable of intensification because the sense act cannot exceed a certain measure. He who expects redemption from it will be disappointed, “frustrated” — as one would say today. But through integration into the spirit, the senses receive a new depth and reach into the infinity of the spiritual adventure. Only there do they come completely to themselves. But that presupposes that the spirit does not remain closed either.

Based on what the Holy Father has written here and elsewhere, we can certainly say that there is a basis for his statement in Sacramentum Caritatis that “one song is not as good as another as far as the liturgy is concerned.” I would submit that the proponents of the music for LifeTeen seem to be overcome with a spirit of relativism as far as music is concerned. If the music had not been so problematic, the Fathers of the 2005 Synod would not have raised the issue and Pope Benedict would not have addressed it in his response. When we make the movement more important than what the Church requests, then, we are not serving the kids well at all.

The problem is that the trend that I have observed in these threads is that the proponents of LifeTeen are fairly complacent with their own routine and seem to not want to go further and read what the Church has actually said rather than just go by some alleged spirit of the Second Vatican Council. This is certainly alarming. However, as Pope Benedict noted, such a sad misinterpretation does exist.

Mind you, these proponents sincerely believe that they are doing the right thing and they come with the best intentions. However, the Neocats have trod that road before and were taken to the liturgical woodshed by both Pope Benedict and Cardinal Arinze. They were told to stop their liturgical abuses. Their music is horrible, sounding more like wailing dirges than sacred.

As I said before, what is wrong with the proponents of LifeTeen actually teaching the kids genuine Sacred Music? What is wrong with exposing them to the treasures of the Faith, to music that is rich in legitimate Catholic theology, tradition and is certainly the most liturgically appropriate hymnody? This is how we hand the faith down.