Teenagers and Church Music

[Jimsdun]

In a New Song for the Lord, Pope Benedict also makes these observations:

Here, the Holy Father is presenting the views of proponents of contemporary music. Notice how these misguided folks view the Mass as some community experience and how the music must identify the community. Contemporary praise and worship music works best with Protestant services because these ecclesial communities don’t have anything else other than the Word. They do not have the Sacrifice. However, the Mass is the truest expression of worship because it has both the Word and the Sacrifice.

So far, the proponents of this banal and trite music have not contributed one shred of legitimate and authoritative documentation from the Holy See that would substantiate their claims. Furthermore, when documentation from the Servant of God, Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI have been presented that clearly make a strong case against this type of music, they resort to personal attacks simply because they have nothing to support them.

The music must reflect the liturgy. We pray as we believe. Unfortunately, there are some who are so enamored with their particular movements that they cannot see this very fundamental truth.

Here’s an example. Are you paying attention Agapewolf? This B]very Protestant/B] song is regularly used at one of the local parishes in Mesa (and they clap along with it):

Happy Day - Tim Hughes

Verse 1:
The greatest day in history, Death is beaten
You have rescued me
Sing it out Jesus is alive
The empty cross, The empty grave
Life eternal You have won the day
Shout it out Jesus is alive
He’s alive

Chorus:
Oh happy day, happy day
You washed my sin away
Oh happy day, happy day
I’ll never be the same
Forever I am changed

Verse 2:
When I stand, in that place
Free at last, meeting face to face
I am Yours Jesus You are mine
Endless joy, perfect peace
Earthly pain finally will cease
Celebrate Jesus is alive
He’s alive

Bridge:
Oh what a glorious day
What a glorious way
That You have saved me
Oh what a glorious day
What a glorious name

As anyone with half a brain can see, the lyrics are totally Protestant, yet this music is used at one of the Catholic parishes, not to mention the sensuous rhythm, which is more appropriate for a secular rock concert.

 

[johnnydigit]

Here’s an example. Are you paying attention Agapewolf? This B]very Protestant/B] song is regularly used at one of the local parishes in Mesa (and they clap along with it):

Happy Day - Tim Hughes

Verse 1:
The greatest day in history, Death is beaten
You have rescued me
Sing it out Jesus is alive
The empty cross, The empty grave
Life eternal You have won the day
Shout it out Jesus is alive
He’s alive

Chorus:
Oh happy day, happy day
You washed my sin away
Oh happy day, happy day
I’ll never be the same
Forever I am changed

Verse 2:
When I stand, in that place
Free at last, meeting face to face
I am Yours Jesus You are mine
Endless joy, perfect peace
Earthly pain finally will cease
Celebrate Jesus is alive
He’s alive

Bridge:
Oh what a glorious day
What a glorious way
That You have saved me
Oh what a glorious day
What a glorious name

As anyone with half a brain can see, the lyrics are totally Protestant, yet this music is used at one of the Catholic parishes, not to mention the sensuous rhythm, which is more appropriate for a secular rock concert.

“lyrics are totally protestant”? what does that mean? i don’t see any heresy. there is nothing wrong with listening to that, outside of Mass.

Then why the argument?

because you’ve made ignorant generalizations about Christian music in addition to pointing out why they aren’t suited for the liturgy.

 

[PrayforMallory]

“lyrics are totally protestant”? what does that mean? i don’t see any heresy. there is nothing wrong with listening to that, outside of Mass.

because you’ve made ignorant generalizations about Christian music in addition to pointing out why they aren’t suited for the liturgy.

They are all entirely true.

Why the ad hominem? Why not just refute them?

I gave very specific criticisms. Why don’t you actually deal with them instead of hurling insults?

You guys need to present an argument or cede defeat.

 

[Sarabande]

As anyone with half a brain can see, the lyrics are totally Protestant, yet this music is used at one of the Catholic parishes, not to mention the sensuous rhythm, which is more appropriate for a secular rock concert.

I’m not familiar with the song, so I can’t comment on the melody or rhythm, but we need to be careful in condemning the rhythm of a piece of music as a reason to be rid of it altogether. In the late middle ages, polyphony was just starting to make its way across Europe as a secular form of music and slowly creeping into mass. I recently finished a biography on Eleanor of Acquitaine which made some comments on the arts and society of the time. Eleanor of Acquitaine was around in the 1100s and sacred polyphony wasn’t officially accepted in the mass until 1364 or 65.

At the time, secular polyphony, even the earlier forms of polyphony used at mass until Guillame de Machaut in the 1300s, was considered “sensual”. A contemporary (John of Salisbury) of Eleanor and Henry II time compared the English court at the time to “ancient Babylon, particularly condemned…the polyphonic music that kindled all kinds of licentiousness, the widespread indulgence in lovemaking that would once have been described by serious men as depraved…” His opinion on this kind of music was not singular. Many during those centuries condemned it.

Please note that I’m not disagreeing that a piece of music like your example is not appropriate for during mass, but many works and styles of sacred music and the arts which have stood the test of time had to be refined a bit to fit within the Church’s standards. The ones which were trite, banal and ridiculous were eventually trashed or never was accepted. Today, I don’t know what is going on. We went through a period which anything was acceptable - no policing whatsoever - so no refinement and sometimes no adherance to the utmost in quality and talent within the composer and the musician.

If the Church continues to actively uphold its standards, I believe it will perhaps encourage and challenge today’s composers to step up to the plate and really create something better than they could ever imagine. Any faith-filled, seemingly gifted person can be spiritually inspired and give something from the heart - but it’s not always ‘beautiful’ or particularily “deep” to others. (I’m NOT negating or denying the inspiration the creator or the musician had. We all fall short of that at one time or another as musicians.) The gifted sometimes needs to be challenged to not accept mediocrity (which I’ve seen way to often in some parishes) and really create and perform to his/her fullest. To not do so is denying the fullness of one’s gift from God. The religious artists and musicians of the past were many times challenged to their utmost and that is why they created long-lasting works. It just needs to be stepped up even more now. I’m optimistic that it is slowly happening.

 

[PrayforMallory]

I’m not familiar with the song, so I can’t comment on the melody or rhythm, but we need to be careful in condemning the rhythm of a piece of music as a reason to be rid of it altogether. In the late middle ages, polyphony was just starting to make its way across Europe as a secular form of music and slowly creeping into mass. I recently finished a biography on Eleanor of Acquitaine which made some comments on the arts and society of the time. Eleanor of Acquitaine was around in the 1100s and sacred polyphony wasn’t officially accepted in the mass until 1364 or 65.

At the time, secular polyphony, even the earlier forms of polyphony used at mass until Guillame de Machaut in the 1300s, was considered “sensual”. A contemporary (John of Salisbury) of Eleanor and Henry II time compared the English court at the time to “ancient Babylon, particularly condemned…the polyphonic music that kindled all kinds of licentiousness, the widespread indulgence in lovemaking that would once have been described by serious men as depraved…” His opinion on this kind of music was not singular. Many during those centuries condemned it.

Please note that I’m not disagreeing that a piece of music like your example is not appropriate for during mass, but many works and styles of sacred music and the arts which have stood the test of time had to be refined a bit to fit within the Church’s standards. The ones which were trite, banal and ridiculous were eventually trashed or never was accepted. Today, I don’t know what is going on. We went through a period which anything was acceptable - no policing whatsoever - so no refinement and sometimes no adherance to the utmost in quality and talent within the composer and the musician.

If the Church continues to actively uphold its standards, I believe it will perhaps encourage and challenge today’s composers to step up to the plate and really create something better than they could ever imagine. Any faith-filled, seemingly gifted person can be spiritually inspired and give something from the heart - but it’s not always ‘beautiful’ or particularily “deep” to others. (I’m NOT negating or denying the inspiration the creator or the musician had. We all fall short of that at one time or another as musicians.) The gifted sometimes needs to be challenged to not accept mediocrity (which I’ve seen way to often in some parishes) and really create and perform to his/her fullest. To not do so is denying the fullness of one’s gift from God. The religious artists and musicians of the past were many times challenged to their utmost and that is why they created long-lasting works. It just needs to be stepped up even more now. I’m optimistic that it is slowly happening.

You’re right about Polyphony. The big difference in my opinion between polyphony and contemporary Christian is that polyphony has a lot of depth and meaning to it. Obviously, Sacred Music can develop, but the radical break that we’ve seen in the last couple of decades can’t be a good thing. Chant, Polyphony, and even some more recent forms of Sacred Music can all be classified as “High Art.” I’m not too sure about the contemporary genre.

Fortunately, there are several new composers producing great works that work well in the traditional Mass, though they have certain more contemporary elements (increased dissonance, etc).

So, all in all, I found your post to be very enlightening.

 

[GreenLantern]

I don’t understand where the assumption that just because teenagers like a certain type of music, that means they want it in church.

Where was the movement to bring swing music into churches back in the 30’s-40’s?

 

[Jimsdun]

I don’t understand where the assumption that just because teenagers like a certain type of music, that means they want it in church.

Where was the movement to bring swing music into churches back in the 30’s-40’s?

My point exactly. I asked practically the same thing either earlier in this thread or in another thread. Why didn’t anyone introduce Vaudeville music in the churches in the 1920s?

There were teenagers in the 20s, 30s and 40s. They would be people in their 80s, 90s and centenarians now. And they did fine without having to introduce their music into the mass. And what about nowadays? At least there not introducng hip-hop into the masses to my knowledge

So was there an anthropological change in humans born after 1948 that there was some sort of need to change the liturgy to accommodate them?

I was a teenager in the 1970s. I loved rock music as much as the next person. But I** DID NOT WANT IT IN CHURCH** and introducing rock music into church as a method of enticing more teenagers into church and creating a mass especially for them did not work in the long run. I predict that the Life Teen mass will be extinct by 2040.

 

[Sarabande]

My point exactly. I asked practically the same thing either earlier in this thread or in another thread. Why didn’t anyone introduce Vaudeville music in the churches in the 1920s?

There were teenagers in the 20s, 30s and 40s. They would be people in their 80s, 90s and centenarians now. And they did fine without having to introduce their music into the mass. And what about nowadays? At least there not introducng hip-hop into the masses to my knowledge

So was there an anthropological change in humans born after 1948 that there was some sort of need to change the liturgy to accommodate them?

I was a teenager in the 1970s. I loved rock music as much as the next person. But I** DID NOT WANT IT IN CHURCH** and introducing rock music into church as a method of enticing more teenagers into church and creating a mass especially for them did not work in the long run. I predict that the Life Teen mass will be extinct by 2040.

I think it was partly due to the lack of “policing” with the arts entering the Church in recent times (relatively-speaking) as I mentioned in my earlier post. Another reason is a lack of education. I have a cousin and friends who are Jewish. My former voice teacher was a Jewish cantor. Their responsibilities and use within their worship is somewhat different than in the Catholic mass. They many times also had the responsibility of preparing children for their bat/bar mitvahs, in which one of the things they were prepared with were their Hebrew chants which were chanted alone during the mitvah. I would sometimes accompany my former voice teacher to these classes and found them very interesting and enlightening.

I use this example because, at least with conservative and orthodox Jews, the children are taught from a young age what is appropriate within their worship and what is not. The line is definite - not blurred - as it was in our Church. These kids and teens loved the music of their time, but they also had a reverence and sometimes love for the Hebrew chants during their worship. AND they keep it separate. They do not feel it’s important to have the trendy music of their time within worship. I’ve been to a couple of services due to the fact that my cousin is Jewish and when I was assisting my teacher in things. When they need to sing the chants, practically everyone will chant in Hebrew and many understand what they are saying - even I have learned a little bit with the songs/chants when I’ve had music gigs.

I’m not saying we need to be like the Jews, as we are a different faith, but I think it was a decent example of how a specific religion instills the sense of reverence for their music and arts within their woship without going with the trendy of their time.

 

[benedictgal]

Tonight, I came across this item in my inbox from Zenit. Archbishop Burke, the Metropolitan of the Archdiocese of St. Louis, established an Institute of Sacred Music in his diocese and appointed Fr. Samuel Weber, a Benedictine, to head it.

Fr. Weber, in an interview with Zenit, made some very crucial remarks that are certainly germaine to the topic at hand:

Q: Is there a difference between sacred music and religious music?

Father Weber: Although the two terms are often used interchangeably, we can make a distinction.

Sacred music, properly speaking, is music that is united to a sacred text – especially psalms and other scriptural texts and texts of the Mass, such as the Introit, Gloria, Sanctus, Agnus Dei, etc., and it includes certain traditional hymns that are – or have been – part of the official liturgical books. The authority of the Church must confirm all the liturgical texts; these sacred words are not to be altered in setting them to music.

All sacred music is “religious music,” obviously. But ***religious music would encompass everything from classic hymns to contemporary songs with a religious theme in a wide variety of styles and varying quality. Not all religious music is suitable for sacred worship, certainly. ***

Ultimately, it is the responsibility of competent authority – i.e., the bishop or the Holy See – to determine the suitability of all religious music for sacred worship, even though parish musicians will usually choose the music for a parish Mass and other liturgical celebrations. All Church musicians need to be able to make truly informed choices about appropriate music for use in the liturgy, based on authentic Church teaching. This is not always easy, nor is the choice simply a matter of taste.

Therefore, the “religious music” spewed out by OCP in its Spirit and Song books, would certainly not qualify for use in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Spirit and Song is the book used mostly at Youth Masses and is filled with a lot of fluff and very little substance.

 

[benedictgal]

This second question addressed to Fr. Weber should give proponents of the Praise and Worship genre an occasion to perhaps re-think their selection:

After the Second Vatican Council it was the pop and folk style music of the late 1960s and 1970s that dominated newly composed music for worship – Catholic and Protestant. Despite the Constitution on the Liturgy’s emphasis on the “pride of place” for Gregorian chant in the liturgy, the council’s teaching was ignored, and chant virtually disappeared.

The reasons for this are many and complex. But one major element was plain confusion and misunderstanding. ***The liturgical reform following the Council was astoundingly rapid, and serious upheavals in the secular world of those times also affected the anti-authoritarian mood within the Church. ***

This was played out dramatically in the liturgy. ***Changes were made precipitously with too little consultation with the bishops. ***During the papacy of Pope John Paul II, we began to see a sober reassessment of the post-conciliar liturgical changes, culminating in his last encyclical, “Ecclesia de Eucharistia.”

The present “renaissance” in liturgical music we are now seeing is in large part due to Pope Benedict XVI and his many scholarly works on the subject even before he became pope. The historic heritage of sacred music, then, always serves as an indispensable teacher and model of what best serves the celebration of sacred worship, and leads worshipers to greater holiness.

This is precisely what happens when publishing houses like OCP are allowed to run unbridled and unsupervised. OCP is the main purveyor of the kind of music that is not at all suitable for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and that is used mostly at these youth Masses.

It’s as though the publishing house (and the people who use the music) have completely disregarded what transpired at the Synod on the Eucharist, let alone have read the Constitution on Sacred Liturgy and Musicam Sacram.

 

[wjj2001]

We need only traditional music at Mass. Preferably sung in Aramaic. And accompanied only by lutes, lyres, and clashing cymbals.

 

[VociMike]

We need only traditional music at Mass. Preferably sung in Aramaic. And accompanied only by lutes, lyres, and clashing cymbals.

Since you seem to be somebody who knows what he (she?) is talking about, would you please summarize what the Church teaches concerning the ideals of Catholic liturgical music? I’m sure it would be helpful to the discussion.

 

[jjschlueter23]

Personally, I think the problem is the contemporary music we use and how we sing it. My definition of contemporary is something like “Sanctuary” or “Shout to the Lord” or “Here I Am to Worship.” I’ve had 4 years of experience in Catholic music ministry, and I think contemporary music needs to have a bigger role.

First and foremost, we (at least in America for the most part) say the Mass in English. This is called the vernacular as I’m sure you’re well aware. The reason we changed it to the vernacular during VAII was to bring the Mass to the people’s level so they could understand what was going on. The best way for people to participate musically, I believe, is to use music that has a meaning to them and help them connect with God. I’m not sure about you, but at 15, “Gather Us In” means so much less than say “Crazy” by MercyMe.

Secondly, Gregorian Chant and Polyphony have their creative limits. There’s only so much you can do with that. Using contemporary music allows you to create something new for God on the spot. You’re literally singing a new song right then and there. “Open the Eyes of My Heart” is a great example, although probably a bit overplayed. You can do it faster with a little bit more of a rock edge (again, not overdoing it. This isn’t death metal or anything, but depending on the audience, I believe electric guitars are acceptable) or you can slow it down and do a nice acoustic guitar version. Either way, you’re using your creativity AND musical ability for God.

Lastly, we’re losing the next generation of the church. My youth minister always says, “If you think Mass is boring, find some part about it you like. Say its the music. Just focus on that and pretty soon you’ll discover something else you like.” Music can be the biggest turn on for people at Mass. Now I’m not saying go out and use contemporary music to fill seats, I’m saying use it to speak to people in their own language and invite them to join into the rest of the Mass, because after all, isn’t that the whole point of music at Mass?

This last bit is sort of unrelated but I think it’s close enough. When Teenagers make music in Church, they should sound like teenagers making music. When 30 year olds make music in church, they should sound like who they are, 30 year olds. When 80 year old grandmas sing, they should sound like grandmas. Every age ground has their own style. Don’t squash that diversity, nourish it because it’s diversity that makes us stronger.

-as usual, apologies for grammar mistakes

 

[Cat]

Personally, I think the problem is the contemporary music we use and how we sing it. My definition of contemporary is something like “Sanctuary” or “Shout to the Lord” or “Here I Am to Worship.” I’ve had 4 years of experience in Catholic music ministry, and I think contemporary music needs to have a bigger role.

First and foremost, we (at least in America for the most part) say the Mass in English. This is called the vernacular as I’m sure you’re well aware. The reason we changed it to the vernacular during VAII was to bring the Mass to the people’s level so they could understand what was going on. The best way for people to participate musically, I believe, is to use music that has a meaning to them and help them connect with God. I’m not sure about you, but at 15, “Gather Us In” means so much less than say “Crazy” by MercyMe.

Secondly, Gregorian Chant and Polyphony have their creative limits. There’s only so much you can do with that. Using contemporary music allows you to create something new for God on the spot. You’re literally singing a new song right then and there. “Open the Eyes of My Heart” is a great example, although probably a bit overplayed. You can do it faster with a little bit more of a rock edge (again, not overdoing it. This isn’t death metal or anything, but depending on the audience, I believe electric guitars are acceptable) or you can slow it down and do a nice acoustic guitar version. Either way, you’re using your creativity AND musical ability for God.

Lastly, we’re losing the next generation of the church. My youth minister always says, “If you think Mass is boring, find some part about it you like. Say its the music. Just focus on that and pretty soon you’ll discover something else you like.” Music can be the biggest turn on for people at Mass. Now I’m not saying go out and use contemporary music to fill seats, I’m saying use it to speak to people in their own language and invite them to join into the rest of the Mass, because after all, isn’t that the whole point of music at Mass?

This last bit is sort of unrelated but I think it’s close enough. When Teenagers make music in Church, they should sound like teenagers making music. When 30 year olds make music in church, they should sound like who they are, 30 year olds. When 80 year old grandmas sing, they should sound like grandmas. Every age ground has their own style. Don’t squash that diversity, nourish it because it’s diversity that makes us stronger.

-as usual, apologies for grammar mistakes

Thank you for this post! Very sensible.

In our parish, it is the TEENAGERS who play the music at Life Teen Mass, and it sounds so teenagerish! I love it! I think that’s one reason why so many teenagers attend our Life Teen Mass. It’s THEIR friends up there playing the music, not a bunch of fifty-something parents who just can’t get used to the idea that all their childhood idols are old enough for social security now.

And it’s not just the teenagers who attend Life Teen. A lot of boomers show up, too.

I think that, like it or not, a LOT of people like rock music and find it very conducive to prayer and worship and entering into deep fellowship with Our Lord Jesus. Honest! Those who don’t like rock music find this incomprehensible, but it’s true.

Obviously we need to think about what GOD likes, not just what we like. But who can say for sure that God dislikes rock music? A reading of Psalm 150 gives a strong impression that God likes rock! All the instruments are there.

The Church has said that the best music for Mass is Gregorian chant and the pipe organ. But the Church has NOT forbidden other music styles. Certainly many austere Catholics have opinions that rock music is not the best choice, but an opinion is not dogma.

 

[snhs]

Secondly, Gregorian Chant and Polyphony have their creative limits. … Either way, you’re using your creativity AND musical ability for God.

Lastly, we’re losing the next generation of the church. My youth minister always says, “If you think Mass is boring, find some part about it you like. Say its the music. Just focus on that and pretty soon you’ll discover something else you like.” Music can be the biggest turn on for people at Mass.

Now I’m not saying go out and use contemporary music to fill seats, I’m saying use it to speak to people in their own language and invite them to join into the rest of the Mass, because after all, isn’t that the whole point of music at Mass?

This last bit is sort of unrelated but I think it’s close enough. When Teenagers make music in Church, they should sound like teenagers making music. When 30 year olds make music in church, they should sound like who they are, 30 year olds. When 80 year old grandmas sing, they should sound like grandmas. Every age ground has their own style. Don’t squash that diversity, nourish it because it’s diversity that makes us stronger.

-as usual, apologies for grammar mistakes

As do all musical forms, not sure I see what your point is. Gregorian Chant has existed as a distinct musical genre for centuries, on that basis I think its done quite well. It has not changed anything like as much as orchestral music or the ‘Classical’ genre and new pieces can be composed as surely as they can for any other form. You can ‘create something new’ in Gregorian Chant, you can sing a ‘new song’ in the form of a Gregorian Chant and if you really want in moderation you can change the tempo of Gregorian Chant. The perceived advantages you see in contemporary music exist in all musical forms, you haven’t provided a basis for using contemporary instead of more established forms.

Your ‘youth minister’ is wrong. Instead of focusing on superficial parts of the Mass, or dividing it into fragments that they may find more in tune with their secular lives they should be focusing on the prayers and consecration which are at the heart of the Mass. Trying to spoon feed young people by catering for their perceived tastes is completely the wrong the direction. If their faith is built on a good beat at the Mass, or electric guitars or getting up at the front and strumming away how can you expect it to stand? You would not build a house on a base of straw for it will fall as surely as the wind will blow, why try to build the faith of young people on such a flimsy basis when the challenges they face in life will be far stronger than any wind. The rock of the Church still stands, there is no reason to be ‘losing the next generation’ if only the youth leaders, teachers and Priests would stay true to the Church rather than using gimmicks and showing them nothing of substance.

What are you saying then? We are to use it to speak to people who presumably must be at the Mass in the first place before inviting them to join the rest of the Mass which is interspersed with similar music? How does that differ from using it to fill seats?

Again I disagree with you. I play the flute, but to be honest I’d far rather sound like a flautist playing the flute than an 18 y/o playing the flute. I’d also far rather sound like Sir James Galway playing the flute than I do playing the flute. If I play in a group there are often 5 or 6 other flautists, the trick is we want to be playing and sounding in unison, the individuality in our tone etc remains but the freedom of expression, slurring etc we might have if we were doing a solo does not. There are times when individuality must be subject to the overall good. When we sing at Mass it should be as a community, whether one person goes to his car to listen to heavy metal and the next to Bach should not matter. One style should not be imposed to suit any interest group, the Mass is far more important than that.

 

[jjschlueter23]

Obviously our opinions are different.

I’m not suggesting building your faith around the music of the church. All I’m saying is that music is a great gate-way to the prayers of the Church. I still don’t understand it all and never will. How do you explain to someone who doesn’t regularly go to Mass to really pay attention to the Eucharistic Prayer even though we don’t understand it? Greater understanding comes in time. It’s not like one morning you wake up and go “EUREKA I COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND THE TRINITY!” That’s not going to happen. My youth minister is still correct.

As for Gregorian chant being flexible, I really disagree. I bet there’d be only one or two people in church who could actually tell two versions of the same Gregorian chant apart.

And as for for sounding like a teenager when playing at church, it’s very clear our opinions differ. When I play the piano or sing, I want it to sound like it’s me. Not someone else because it’s my time and effort in what I do so I want it to sound original. I do see your point in sounding like a great, but with a lot of practice and tons of work, anyone can sound like a great. Only you can sound like you, and isn’t doesn’t God want us to be ourselves when we serve him?

-sorry for grammar errors

 

[snhs]

Obviously our opinions are different.

I’m not suggesting building your faith around the music of the church. All I’m saying is that music is a great gate-way to the prayers of the Church. I still don’t understand it all and never will. How do you explain to someone who doesn’t regularly go to Mass to really pay attention to the Eucharistic Prayer even though we don’t understand it? Greater understanding comes in time. It’s not like one morning you wake up and go “EUREKA I COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND THE TRINITY!” That’s not going to happen. My youth minister is still correct.

As for Gregorian chant being flexible, I really disagree. I bet there’d be only one or two people in church who could actually tell two versions of the same Gregorian chant apart.

And as for for sounding like a teenager when playing at church, it’s very clear our opinions differ. When I play the piano or sing, I want it to sound like it’s me. Not someone else because it’s my time and effort in what I do so I want it to sound original. I do see your point in sounding like a great, but with a lot of practice and tons of work, anyone can sound like a great. Only you can sound like you, and isn’t doesn’t God want us to be ourselves when we serve him?

-sorry for grammar errors

You suggest people coming to Church having been encouraged to look to the music as something to alleviate boredom is not basing their faith on it? If their faith existed already then they would come for the Mass itself and would not find it boring.

Our Lord said ‘suffer the children to come unto me’, he didn’t send St Peter to break out the guitars and St Paul to obtain a drum kit (or whatever the equivalent c.10-40 A.D. was) to provide suitable musical interludes between his teachings. You confuse understanding with a full understanding. We do not need to have a full understanding of the Trinity or the actual minutiae of Transubstantiation, what we do need is a fairly basic comprehension, and if God wishes to show us more during the Mass then he can, just as he did with Peter. If you tell someone before going into the Church that during the Mass on the Altar bread and wine becomes the Body and Blood of Our Lord, who gave himself for our salvation and they come with an open mind then they are going to get far more out of it and a far better understanding of Catholicism than listening attentively to whatever drivel the youth ministry has decided to force feed the Parishioners. If you are looking at your mates playing guitar then you are less likely to look at what is happening at the Altar.

Your youth minister may be right in so far as it goes, however they remain wrong, indeed fatally flawed, in principle. I’m sure people who come to Mass looking to the music as the one redeeming feature which saves them from boredom will ‘discover’ something else they like, maybe the hairstyle of the lead guitarist, or how nice the singer looks in that tank top. Whether that method of saving them from boredom also leads them to even the most elementary understanding of the Mass, their faith or the path to salvation is far more dubious.

Interesting, so you don’t credit the people in the pews with the understanding to hear differences in music? Well I’m rather inclined to credit them with the ability to differentiate between two versions of Gregorian Chant just as different versions of other hymns.

Do you not want God to be given the best? Isn’t that what he deserves, we should offer him the best that we can give. I could play the flute when I first started, although only a note or two. If I hadn’t learnt how to produce what is objectively a better sound I’d probably still sound much the same, it would certainly be individual and original. Not everyone can be a great, no matter how much time, effort or practice they put in. We should use those talents which God has given us, but not to the extent that we place our desires ahead of what is right. When we sing in Church it should be as a community, but that does not mean allowing our own way of doing things to outweigh those of others. In a given Parish you may have a very able coloratura soprano with a particular penchant for trills, you may also have someone who would normally shout each word in a harsh monotone rather than sing in accord with their selected genre. If those people are to glory in diversity as you advocate then you get something which sounds horrible. So what happens is quite simple, they temper that individuality to the group, being true to themselves but also being true to what is appropriate for the time, place and the Holy Sacrifice of Mass.

 

[wjj2001]

Today we had two missionary sisters visit our church. They were part of the procession into the church, dressed in native Ugandan clothing, one playing a hand drum and the other doing a sort of swaying dance to the Lord, singing songs of praise in their native language.

The Church says this music and dance is acceptable where culturally appropriate. Clearly in many parts of Africa drums and dance are a big part of their culture.

My point: As others pointed out, the octogenarians and the teens have different styles of music, dress, language, etc. Different cultures, as it were. We need to reach out to the youth who cannot relate to pipe organs and 1870-era music, make the church a place comfortable so they can meet God, not a place they are so stiff and uncomfortable they put up walls around themselves. But all with our Savior as the focus.

I am psyched about taking our youth to the Steubby conference next weekend. 5,000 teens singing together for the Lord, and also praying the rosary together, all kneeling when appropriate, and crying as their sins are absolved in reconciliation. Praise the Lord!

Or, let’s go back to singing psalms in Aramaic.

 

[jjschlueter23]

Today we had two missionary sisters visit our church. They were part of the procession into the church, dressed in native Ugandan clothing, one playing a hand drum and the other doing a sort of swaying dance to the Lord, singing songs of praise in their native language.

The Church says this music and dance is acceptable where culturally appropriate. Clearly in many parts of Africa drums and dance are a big part of their culture.

My point: As others pointed out, the octogenarians and the teens have different styles of music, dress, language, etc. Different cultures, as it were. We need to reach out to the youth who cannot relate to pipe organs and 1870-era music, make the church a place comfortable so they can meet God, not a place they are so stiff and uncomfortable they put up walls around themselves. But all with our Savior as the focus.

I am psyched about taking our youth to the Steubby conference next weekend. 5,000 teens singing together for the Lord, and also praying the rosary together, all kneeling when appropriate, and crying as their sins are absolved in reconciliation. Praise the Lord!

Or, let’s go back to singing psalms in Aramaic.

Exactly. I couldn’t have said it better. And yes, I want to give God the best. When I die and hopefully make it to heaven, I’ll ask Jesus what his favorite song was. If he says Gregorian Chant, I’ll humbly agree that you are indeed right. Until that day comes, I’m inclined to believe that God wants us to sing to him the best way we know how.

I’m not suggesting people come to church and listen to the music to alleviate boredom. There’s people, generally teenager (I myself being one of them) who are dragged to church every Sunday. For the most part I want to go, but there are some days when I really just don’t want to be there. For all those people out there, at least give them some good music that can help them focus in and at least almost allow the Mass to speak to them.

So you’re basically saying that contemporary music is a distraction from whats really going on on the Altar? I don’t think so. Whenever you have young people involved they’re going to get a bit distracted. We’re all a little ADD.

Ok so maybe I did discredit the congregation’s musical ear. I’ll give you that, but there’s no way in Heaven or hell that you’re going to get a bunch of 15 year olds up on the Altar to do Georgian Chant. You can’t have the youth involved and get every traditional facet you want. We (the Youth) are the future and the future is now. The church is supposed to be built on a solid rock, which it has been. But to say we can’t redecorate once in a while is absolutely absurd.

Yes, yes, you are right. Not everyone can be great. But like wjj2001 said, we need some diversity more than once in a while. It’s good for us. It lets us grow. That actually brings up another point. When the Apostle’s first started celebrating Mass, I believe it’s pretty much agreed upon that they sang AND danced. Now where’d those songs come from? We’ll I’m pretty sure they had to make them up and that they were pretty upbeat because dancing to Gregorian chant would be very difficult.

Jesus didn’t send anyone away, so I’m pretty sure that, in the right context, God would want you to use your talent at guitar or harmonica during the greatest prayer, the Mass.

 

[wjj2001]

Jesus didn’t send anyone away, so I’m pretty sure that, in the right context, God would want you to use your talent at guitar or harmonica during the greatest prayer, the Mass.

When I was young (12, to be exact), I was asked to join our new “Folk Mass”. I had played guitar for a couple years, wasn’t great but could stay on tune. We ended up with TWENTY-THREE guitars, plus a flute, clarinet, and bass, playing the then-new Ray Repp songs. As I continued in high school, I often wasn’t real excited to go to church every Sunday, but because I played guitar there I went. We weren’t perfect, but sometimes it was the ONLY reason I went to Mass. I believe it was God’s way of keeping me close to Him even when I wasn’t, well, you know…

I guess a seed was planted. I now eagerly anticipate going to Mass, get a special blessing from an hour of Adoration (and get happy chills when we spontaneously sing O Salutaris Hostia - yes, in Latin), and listen to Christian music in the car. I’m still not perfect, in life or guitar, and I still do play guitar sometimes at youth retreats.