Tell me again how Islam is peaceful?

[dparker]

Some good points there Jerry.

However, what you or I believe about Islamic traditions or Christian scriptures isn’t the issue. The issue is that Muslims currently oppress women and they do so based on their scriptures and traditions.

As the clearly moderate Muslim poster AbeOman said in the other thread:

Example, the word or words “beat your wife or wives” is there in the Quran but my friend it’s ain’t just that simple as you think it is, there are certain and strong rules, regulations, ramifications and limits to how, why, for what purpose one is allowed to beat his wife. As the saying goes going in to the toilet and coming out of it is not the same.

The fact that we are even discussing “wife beating” is sad. But it is being discussed because it is practiced and defended by Muslims. No, not all Muslims. Probably not your Western Muslim friends (nor mine), but it is a problem.

The role of women in Islamic countries should concern any rational person. Have you read Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali? Or A Thousand Splendid Suns by Khaled Hosseini?

One is a factual autobiography of a Samali Muslim women, the other an historical novel by an Afghan-American about life under the Taliban from a women’s perspective. Might just open your eyes to Muslim life “outside of these United States”.

 

[jerry_h_1700]

The whole “wife beating” is more akin to the culture than it is to the religion. For example there was big news a few months ago when a Christian Iraqi husband who lived in Michigan killed his wife and daughter because they “dishonored” him. And then there was that case last year of the women who was in a Jerusalem tour group who was threatened to death by Orthodox Jews because she sat in the front of the bus. I am sure you will find much domestic abuse among all religions in that part of the world, just as in the US you find most the domestic abuse is in the deep south, but again this has more to do with culture and upbringing than anything to do with this or that religion. I am sure if I was able to find some good sources on domestic abuse in Christian countries many years ago (or in Africa today) I bet it would look very dismal and bad, but again I will not blame Christianity for that.

And I find it highly ironic that the same people who usually say how bad Muslims are treated under their religion are also the same people who say we should go out and kill and bomb those same Muslims they claim are being oppressed!

 

[dparker]

Never mind Jerry. You are clearly living in another world and discussion isn’t going to help. I will give you kudos though for probably the most posts for a new member in their first 24 hours on the forum. Congrats!

Peace and blessings to you…

 

[jerry_h_1700]

Never mind Jerry. You are clearly living in another world and discussion isn’t going to help.

Gee, can’t find a response to my arguments? Cat got your tongue?

 

[swariffin]

Thanks so much for your thoughtfulness and very constructive debating, moreover, I’m glad the link was helpful to you.

However, if we are talking the later, i.e Muslims, then yes, I will say it without any hesitation that we have major problems, just to prove my point, the number of deaths resulting from suicide bombs in Pakistan over the last few months are in hundreds, same if not more in Iraq, so to conclude, What do think these folks who are committing all these horrendous crimes as Muslims…? personally, I do not think they are not good Muslims, are they misguided and motivated by their own whims and wishes, absolutely yes, are the majority of Muslims sick and tired of them, hell, yes and that is why we are having changes in our education systems, that is why lots of reforms both politically and religion are taking place in so many Islamic countries countries.

Are there other outside forces and factors contributing or fueling these problems , without a doubt, yes, so you see in the final analyses religion teaches us how best to live our life’s but it does not force us to choose the how itself.

Again, thanks so much for your understanding and please do let me know if there is any points I missed out.

God bless.

Dear AbeOman,

From you, I do find a good muslim to have a constructive discussion to. I also believe that your problem basically rooted in both poverty and uneducation. See that in general, that suicide bombers come from largely under/still developing nations (not necessary Islamic nations). Those “ex-suicide bombers” were typically uneducated and poor people. Given a twisted Qur’an verses plus promises of Heaven, will do. Logically, if I am poor and hard to make a living, a promise of Heaven in exchange of my poor and miserable life on earth is a big deal.

 

[swariffin]

I see your point about the distinction between true Muslims and those who are name only. That is not unique to any religion. My question is more along the lines of the non-violent, peaceful types.

For example, when the folks in Europe were rioting about the depiction of Mohammid in the cartoon (I do not want to discuss the issue of the cartoon itself, just the riots), why did we not see/hear from voices of calm and peace? Why do the more moderate minded Muslims and Muslim governments not actively hunt down terrorist groups? It seems like silence is the course of action that is most common, and to many non-Muslims, silence sounds like consent.

Dear Ralphinal,

First of all, I am not speaking for the Muslims. I just like to respond that in most Muslim government, the greatest number in the population is Muslims. They tend to be poorly educated and live in poverty. Those two things are the embrio of for indoctrinations, and just like a spilled gasoline. A little spark of fire or a little provocation will end up in civil riots. Don’t forget, they are also the greatest number of voters in the elections. If you are the head of the government in this kind of country, you may end up doing the same things. No need for Qur’an nor bible verses to explain this.

 

[AbeOman]

Dear AbeOman,

From you, I do find a good Muslim to have a constructive discussion to. I also believe that your problem basically rooted in both poverty and uneducation. See that in general, that suicide bombers come from largely under/still developing nations (not necessary Islamic nations). Those “ex-suicide bombers” were typically uneducated and poor people. Given a twisted Qur’an verses plus promises of Heaven, will do. Logically, if I am poor and hard to make a living, a promise of Heaven in exchange of my poor and miserable life on earth is a big deal.

You are kind hearted and like the way you reason, you are 100% correct in both of your analyses.

To add a point, from 11 century to 18 century and that is about 8 century and even more if I’m not mistaken Islam led the world in every sphere of human life, why because of developments and progress in science, knowledge and education, imagine 3 of the oldest if not the oldest universities as we know university today where in Muslim countries, however after the modern industrial revolution which need lots of raw material and colonization and the decline of Islamic world, I think you know the rest of the story.

Once again, thanks so much and hope we keep talking to understand one another lot more better.

God bless,

 

[Montalban]

The whole “wife beating” is more akin to the culture than it is to the religion.

excepting for the evidence from Islam

 

[zerinus]

Dear AbeOman,

From you, I do find a good muslim to have a constructive discussion to.

That I agree with!

I also believe that your problem basically rooted in both poverty and uneducation. See that in general, that suicide bombers come from largely under/still developing nations (not necessary Islamic nations). Those “ex-suicide bombers” were typically uneducated and poor people. Given a twisted Qur’an verses plus promises of Heaven, will do. Logically, if I am poor and hard to make a living, a promise of Heaven in exchange of my poor and miserable life on earth is a big deal.

But with this I must disagree. The 9/11 bombers were generally from wealthy families, and had been well educated (some with university degres) in European countries. They were mostly from Saudi Arabia, which is a wealthy country. Osama bin-Laden is a wealthy man and educated in the West. His right hand man, Al-Zawahiri is very well educated and wealthy. He is an egyptian Doctor. The last series of attepted (but unsuccessful) bombings that took place in Britain were all by by educated and well off Arab Doctors who were working in British hospitals. One I believe had been educated at Oxford or Cambridge.

zerinus

 

[Valke2]

Dear AbeOman,

From you, I do find a good muslim to have a constructive discussion to. I also believe that your problem basically rooted in both poverty and uneducation. See that in general, that suicide bombers come from largely under/still developing nations (not necessary Islamic nations). Those “ex-suicide bombers” were typically uneducated and poor people. Given a twisted Qur’an verses plus promises of Heaven, will do. Logically, if I am poor and hard to make a living, a promise of Heaven in exchange of my poor and miserable life on earth is a big deal.

Suicide bombers come in all economic backgrounds. Look at 9/11.

 

[ralphinal]

I totally agree about a larger problem being one of poverty and lack of education. I left that out of the discussion intentionally. If it is simply an issue of poverty and education, why do I not see terrorism from Native American reservations? Where is the inner city terrorism in America? There has to be another dynamic involved. It is tragic to me that a few hundred years ago, most of the greatest scientific mind in the world were Muslim and educated in Muslim countries, and today, while there are still leading Muslim thinkers, they are mostly western educated. I know the historical and socio-economic issues that lead to teh decline of the economic and education systems of the Muslim world, but where is the long-overdue rebirth, especially in the oil-producing nations?

As to the issue of Islam as a religion of peace, I do not think that we can discuss this in this forum. Like so many other threads, it is devolving into a “here are verses that prove my point and here are some that prove you are wrong.” IN the West, we see TONS of images of violent acts and protests in the Muslim world, and we are told this is not true Islam. My only issue with that arguement is that to some Mulims, it is! I have seen the arguement that the governements use teh faith to their best advantage to control the masses, but how about the riots in Denmark over the cartoon? Where were the calls for peace from prominant leaders? The death threats against writers? Some the the religious leaders such as those in power in Iran have issued these, and we see few, if any, other high profile Muslims leaders issue a counter or a call for peace.

Would it be a better question to ask if Islam, as a religion, lends itself too easily to violence?

 

[jerry_h_1700]

Would it be a better question to ask if Islam, as a religion, lends itself too easily to violence?

There are 3 things I believe that can be done to calm down any forms of Islam linked violence:

1. All western nation armies should get out of Muslim territories. That would immediately reduce violence by 99%.
2. Division of state and mosque.
3. Perhaps a Vatican-style council or leadership.

 

[AgnosTheist]

There are 3 things I believe that can be done to calm down any forms of Islam linked violence:

1. All western nation armies should get out of Muslim territories. That would immediately reduce violence by 99%.

What about the fact that Alqaida wants Spain returned to the Ummah?

1. Division of state and mosque.

Completely unislamic. Would never happen without outside intervention.

1. Perhaps a Vatican-style council or leadership.

The return of the Caliph? Must we really help Alqaida get that dream? Its the Caliph’s job to wage war among the infidels, you know.

 

[AgnosTheist]

The whole “wife beating” is more akin to the culture than it is to the religion.

its both cultural and religious. its clearly spelled out in the koran that a wife can be beaten under certain conditions.

 

[jerry_h_1700]

What about the fact that Alqaida wants Spain returned to the Ummah?

I also have dreams of having a gold car, but it ain’t gonna happen

Completely unislamic. Would never happen without outside intervention.

People said the same thing about the Papal states, but eventually the pope did the right thing and gave up state power.

The return of the Caliph? Must we really help Alqaida get that dream?

How is a religious council the same as a Caliph, who is a secular state ruler?

 

[AgnosTheist]

I also have dreams of having a gold car, but it ain’t gonna happen

well you arent exactly violent are you? your analogy isnt exactly relevant. removing foreign presence would not stop muslim extremists from waging war at us. they want more. they want spain back. what do you think of that?

People said the same thing about the Papal states, but eventually the pope did the right thing and gave up state power.

Theres a world of difference between Jesus & Mohammad, my friend. A world of difference between Peter & Abu Bakr. I’m sure you know which ones practiced political domination and aggressive warfare.

How is a religious council the same as a Caliph, who is a secular state ruler?

i thought you said ‘leadership’. Anyway Im sure one thing would lead to another. A truly unified muslim council would elect a caliph. And in Islam it is the Caliph’s job to wage war against infidels like you if you refuse the ‘invitation’ to accept islam or come under its rule.

The whole “wife beating” is more akin to the culture than it is to the religion.

its both cultural and religious. its clearly spelled out in the koran that a wife can be beaten under certain conditions.

 

[jerry_h_1700]

You keep saying “they want a caliph, they want Spain, blah blah” yet do you honestly think these are realistic? Do you really think Al-Qaeda has a chance of doing any of this when even the majority of Muslims hate these guys? (Remember the majority of Al-Qaeda attacks have been against Muslims more so than outsiders) And the only reason Al-Qaeda is still around is because our occupation of Iraq has given them an excuse to convince the Muslim world that the West is out to destroy them. Leave the Middle east and the Al-Qaeda wil no longer have any excuse to rally their cause and they will either fade out of existence or the Muslim world will turn on them as they continue to bomb more Muslims.

 

[Valke2]

The cost of putting up with Islamic terrorism is cheaper than the cost of withdrawing from every muslim country.

 

[AgnosTheist]

You keep saying “they want a caliph, they want Spain, blah blah” yet do you honestly think these are realistic?

realistically muslims do dream about the return of the caliphate. you can hear that whatever muslim forum you go to. now about spain, realistically islam considers it an affront that a muslim land be taken by infidels. its gonna become an issue dude whether you like it or not.

Do you really think Al-Qaeda has a chance of doing any of this when even the majority of Muslims hate these guys?

the alqaida, no. but some muslim organization will.

Leave the Middle east and the Al-Qaeda wil no longer have any excuse to rally their cause and they will either fade out of existence or the Muslim world will turn on them as they continue to bomb more Muslims.

waitta minute, lets consider the realism of your argument. First of all, what about Israel? Even if theyve been left alone (by the U.S.) to die at the hands of the muslims, they would nuke the region to as a parting present. again the west would be blamed.

 

[jerry_h_1700]

realistically muslims do dream about the return of the caliphate. you can hear that whatever muslim forum you go to. now about spain, realistically islam considers it an affront that a muslim land be taken by infidels. its gonna become an issue dude whether you like it or not.

These dreamers make up maybe 1/10 of 0.1% of Muslims, but thats a liberal estimate. I bet you most foreign Muslims can’t even point out Spain on a map.

the alqaida, no. but some muslim organization will.

How so? With what army and military? Every Muslim nation in the world combined is still more poor than individual European countries. Plus you have nuclear armed Europe, Russia, and China bordering Muslim nations which would not be very friendly towards any Theocratic incursions into their societies.

waitta minute, lets consider the realism of your argument. First of all, what about Israel? Even if theyve been left alone (by the U.S.) to die at the hands of the muslims, they would nuke the region to as a parting present. again the west would be blamed.

Die at the hands of Muslims? Israel has a first class military and hundreds of nukes. The only reason Israel could possibly die off is because they have one of the highest abortion rates in the world.

The cost of putting up with Islamic terrorism is cheaper than the cost of withdrawing from every muslim country.

As long as we occupy there will be Islamic terrorism, so what you suggest is perpetual and eternal occupation and attacks. You are asking for eternal suffering of both Americans and Muslims.