Tell me again how Islam is peaceful?

[Valke2]

I am saying that we are willing to put up with such a cost, yes. Especially, as there is absolutely no assurance whatsoever that we will not remain a target for terrorism if we were to withdraw from and break our alliances with, all Muslim countries.

 

[jerry_h_1700]

I am saying that we are willing to put up with such a cost, yes. Especially, as there is absolutely no assurance whatsoever that we will not remain a target for terrorism if we were to withdraw from and break our alliances with, all Muslim countries.

WE are? YOU may be, but not 70% of Americans. Look and read the list of reasons why terrorists target Americans, you will see all the reasons have to do with occupation and interference. They may wrap it up in religious language, but this war has NOTHING to do with religion or Islam, it has everything to do with foreign entanglements and occupations.

 

[swariffin]

The whole “wife beating” is more akin to the culture than it is to the religion. For example there was big news a few months ago when a Christian Iraqi husband who lived in Michigan killed his wife and daughter because they “dishonored” him. And then there was that case last year of the women who was in a Jerusalem tour group who was threatened to death by Orthodox Jews because she sat in the front of the bus. I am sure you will find much domestic abuse among all religions in that part of the world, just as in the US you find most the domestic abuse is in the deep south, but again this has more to do with culture and upbringing than anything to do with this or that religion. I am sure if I was able to find some good sources on domestic abuse in Christian countries many years ago (or in Africa today) I bet it would look very dismal and bad, but again I will not blame Christianity for that.

And I find it highly ironic that the same people who usually say how bad Muslims are treated under their religion are also the same people who say we should go out and kill and bomb those same Muslims they claim are being oppressed!

Dear Jerry,

In this case, you are right. A mistake or a sin done by a person in a particular religion does not mean that the mistake/sin is taught by such religion. We can not blame a sin of a person to his/her religion.

 

[swariffin]

Suicide bombers come in all economic backgrounds. Look at 9/11.

OOOps, I am sorry. I mean in general. The one in 9/11 did require 4 aircrafts to do their evil acts, and it was unique. Talking about aircraft and how you could fly it, requires educations and money. Anyway, 9/11 type of suicidal killing is rare. Typically they carry boms covered by their clothes with a simple detonator. No education nor money needed to do so, since the bombs are usually provided (even battery is included).

 

[ralphinal]

Agnos,
From your posts I would think that you feel that even if we totally capitulated everything that the radicals wants, they would create a new set of issues to hate us. Would that be correct?

Great set of posts, btw. But, I always expect great posts from you and are seldom disapointed, even if I do not agree.

 

[swariffin]

I totally agree about a larger problem being one of poverty and lack of education. I left that out of the discussion intentionally. If it is simply an issue of poverty and education, why do I not see terrorism from Native American reservations? Where is the inner city terrorism in America?

Dear Ralph,

That is why you should be grateful that you are living in the US. Living in poverty in the US is not the same as living in poverty in a poor country. The circumstances among them are totally different.

 

[Valke2]

WE are? YOU may be, but not 70% of Americans. Look and read the list of reasons why terrorists target Americans, you will see all the reasons have to do with occupation and interference. They may wrap it up in religious language, but this war has NOTHING to do with religion or Islam, it has everything to do with foreign entanglements and occupations.

70% are against Bush and the IRaq war. That is not the same thing. Show me a survey that says 70% of Americans want the US to remove itself from Saudi Arabia, to remain silent about Darfur, to withdraw unconditional support of Israel should it be attacked. I assume you also mean that 70% of AMerican’s want to stop giving foriegn aid to Egypt and Pakistan. Most terrorists are targeting other arabs or muslims, not Americans.

THe US wants cheap oil. It is willing to put up with terrorism in order to get it.

 

[jerry_h_1700]

70% are against Bush and the IRaq war. That is not the same thing. Show me a survey that says 70% of Americans want the US to remove itself from Saudi Arabia, to remain silent about Darfur, to withdraw unconditional support of Israel should it be attacked. I assume you also mean that 70% of AMerican’s want to stop giving foriegn aid to Egypt and Pakistan.

I am willing to bet those 70% are also reassessing our other foreign entanglements as well. Survey’s have asked them only about Iraq, but if asked about the other issues I am sure they would have agreed with disengaging from those conflicts as well.

Most terrorists are targeting other arabs or muslims, not Americans.

Agreed, I also mentioned this in another thread

THe US wants cheap oil. It is willing to put up with terrorism in order to get it.

If we changed our foreign policy, we could have cheap oil AND less terrorism

 

[Valke2]

I am willing to bet those 70% are also reassessing our other foreign entanglements as well. Survey’s have asked them only about Iraq, but if asked about the other issues I am sure they would have agreed with disengaging from those conflicts as well.

THat’s pure guesswork and I’d disagree with your guess on this.

 

[Booklover]

What about the fact that Alqaida wants Spain returned to the Ummah?

Why do they always want everything that is not theirs!!

Completely unislamic. Would never happen without outside intervention.

Agree.

The return of the Caliph? Must we really help Alqaida get that dream? Its the Caliph’s job to wage war among the infidels, you know.

Exactly! See this chilling account: Is a Caliph really needed?

“Here is an incident that shows how Islam was used by the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire to control his subjects. From the time of Suleiman I in the sixteenth century, the Sultan of the Ottomans was also the Caliph, Allah’s vice-regent on earth…”

Vickie

 

[ralphinal]

Dear Ralph,

That is why you should be grateful that you are living in the US. Living in poverty in the US is not the same as living in poverty in a poor country. The circumstances among them are totally different.

I am thankful for the blessings that God has given me. I just wonder if the problem isn’t a combination of a poor, uneducated people being manipulated by those in control of their faith. But setting those aside, how about the violent rhetoric form the wealthier, more educated Muslims like the ones in Saudi Arabia or those living in England? What about the riots in Denmark last year? I know that living in the US creates a disconnect, but I want to understand. The only issue causing radical Islam cannot be poverty. Why do we not see violence in the same way from poor Hindus in India? Or Buddists? I have never heard of a Buddist suicide bomber.

 

[dparker]

It is not poverty.

The Western Left just doesn’t get it. They want to believe that everything is about money (or the lack of it) because that premise fits their world view. Just isn’t true.

Read what the Islamists actually say. They view the West as an evil influence on their concept of a pure society. They aren’t joking when they call us the ‘Great Satan’. They view us and our freedoms as decadent and sinful. It’s all about the supremacy of Islam and their perceived need to eliminate all ‘outside’ evil influence.

Problem is, they have plenty of support for such views from not only the radicalized, but many ‘moderates’ in those societies, and plenty of supporting scripture and traditions.

 

[jerry_h_1700]

Why do we not see violence in the same way from poor Hindus in India? Or Buddists? I have never heard of a Buddist suicide bomber.

There are actually many Hindu riots, at least once a year, and there was actually a large Buddhist riot in Nepal 2 years ago that left many deaths. But since our media and government have decided that Muslims are now the official “bad guys”, these types of incidents are swept under the radar from reporting so they don’t conflict with the current worldview they want us to believe.

 

[AgnosTheist]

These dreamers make up maybe 1/10 of 0.1% of Muslims, but thats a liberal estimate. I bet you most foreign Muslims can’t even point out Spain on a map.

imuslim spain must be a part of their history lessons, for those who could afford to go to school. and the caliphate, its realistically pretty standard.

How so? With what army and military? Every Muslim nation in the world combined is still more poor than individual European countries. Plus you have nuclear armed Europe, Russia, and China bordering Muslim nations which would not be very friendly towards any Theocratic incursions into their societies.

iraq alone used to have the 5th largest army. if the muslims are united under one military dictatorship, they could easily build an army that far outnumbers america, russia & europe combined.

Die at the hands of Muslims? Israel has a first class military and hundreds of nukes.

and that did not hinder the palestinians and saddam hussein from harrassing israel. it did not hinder iran from proclaiming the destruction of israel.

 

[jerry_h_1700]

iraq alone used to have the 5th largest army. if the muslims are united under one military dictatorship, they could easily build an army that far outnumbers america, russia & europe combined.

Stop living in a fantasy. Shia and Sunni will never unite, they hate each other more than any form of non-muslim, even with oil Muslim nations are 3rd world countries and would be even more poor with out the Texas tea, and Muslims are leaving the religion at such fast annual rates that experts say Islam will either cease to exist completely by 2100 AD or will be smaller than Judaism is today.

 

[swariffin]

Read what the Islamists actually say. They view the West as an evil influence on their concept of a pure society. They aren’t joking when they call us the ‘Great Satan’. They view us and our freedoms as decadent and sinful. It’s all about the supremacy of Islam and their perceived need to eliminate all ‘outside’ evil influence.

Problem is, they have plenty of support for such views from not only the radicalized, but many ‘moderates’ in those societies, and plenty of supporting scripture and traditions.

Combined with posting of Jerry

There are actually many Hindu riots, at least once a year, and there was actually a large Buddhist riot in Nepal 2 years ago that left many deaths. But since our media and government have decided that Muslims are now the official “bad guys”, these types of incidents are swept under the radar from reporting so they don’t conflict with the current worldview they want us to believe.

From these two occations, there is a similarity. There has to be a person/persons who planted the idea of things like “Great Satan” etc. and those people who believe on such provocations. Those two subjects must be separated. You can see that the “doer” of both the riots and the suicidal bombers come from the lesser economic background (in general) as compared to the ones who planted the provocations. Once such provocations involving religious belief (such as twisting holy book verses), then we have the problems as we are facing today. The provocators seldom work within his/her nativeland, for example we see was Dr. Azahari from Malaysia, who conducted his movements in Indonesia rather than in Malaysia.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Buddhist riots in Nepal? Are you kidding? The Nepalese are mainly Hindus for a start, and I’m not aware of any riots inspired or caused by Buddhism.

It is not the same with Islam - whose members want to subjugate the world to Islam, according to the dictat of their prophet.

You won’t find Gautama Buddha urging violence against disbelievers, unlike you-know-who.

 

[jerry_h_1700]

It is not the same with Islam - whose members want to subjugate the world to Islam, according to the dictat of their prophet.

“There shall be no compulsion in religion. True guidance is now distinct from error. He that renounces idol worship and puts faith in God shall grasp a firm handle that will never break. God hears all and knows all.” - Koran (2:256)

 

[dparker]

“There shall be no compulsion in religion. True guidance is now distinct from error. He that renounces idol worship and puts faith in God shall grasp a firm handle that will never break. God hears all and knows all.” - Koran (2:256)

I wish that verse was Islam’s final truth on the matter. Sadly, that very early Koranic verse was abrogated by many other later verses. A partial sampling:

Qur’an:47:4 “When you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah’s Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam.”

Qur’an:2:193 “Fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief) and religion is only for Allah. But if they cease/desist, let there be no hostility except against infidel disbelievers.”

Qur’an:9:88 “The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in Allah’s Cause.”

Qur’an:9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”

Qur’an:9:112 “The Believers fight in Allah’s Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed.”

Qur’an:9:29 “Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission.”

Qur’an:8:39 “So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).”

Qur’an:8:65 “O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding.”

Qur’an:9:38 “Believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth and fight in Allah’s Cause you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? Unless you go forth, He will afflict and punish you with a painful doom, and put others in your place.”

Qur’an:9:123 “Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you.”

Qur’an:9:19 “Do you make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Mosque, equal to those who fight in the Cause of Allah? They are not comparable in the sight of Allah. Those who believe, and left their homes, striving with might, fighting in Allah’s Cause with their goods and their lives, have the highest rank in the sight of Allah.”

Qur’an:61:4 “Surely Allah loves those who fight in His Cause.”

Qur’an:61:11 “Believers, shall I lead you to a bargain or trade that will save you from a painful torment? That you believe in Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad), and that you strive and fight in Allah’s Cause with your property and your lives: That will be best for you!” Qur’an 61:12 “He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to Gardens under which rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in Eden: that is indeed the Supreme Achievement. And another (favor) which you love: help from Allah for a speedy victory over your enemies.”

Qur’an:4:94 “Believers, when you go abroad to fight wars in Allah’s Cause, investigate carefully, and say not to anyone who greets you: ‘You are not a believer!’ Coveting the chance profits of this life (so that you may despoil him). With Allah are plenteous spoils and booty.”

Qur’an:4:95 “Not equal are believers who sit home and receive no hurt and those who fight in Allah’s Cause with their wealth and lives. Allah has granted a grade higher to those who fight with their possessions and bodies to those who sit home. Those who fight He has distinguished with a special reward.”

Qur’an:4:100 “He who leaves his home in Allah’s Cause finds abundant resources and many a refuge. Should he die as a refugee for Allah and His Messenger His reward becomes due and sure with Allah. When you travel through the earth there is no blame on you if you curtail your worship for fear unbelievers may attack you. In truth the disbelievers are your enemy.”

Qur’an:4:102 “When you (Prophet) lead them in prayer, let some stand with you, taking their arms with them. When they finish their prostrations, let them take positions in the rear. And let others who have not yet prayed come - taking all precaution, and bearing arms. The Infidels wish, if you were negligent of your arms, to assault you in a rush. But there is no blame on you if you put away your arms because of the inconvenience of rain or because you are ill; but take precaution. For the Unbelieving Infidels Allah hath prepared a humiliating punishment.”

 

[jerry_h_1700]

It should not surprise us to find contradictory quotes in the Koran since we as Christians do not believe it to be Holy inspired. Still, if you guys think the stuff in the Koran is bad, get a load of what the Talmud says about Jesus and Mary…