Tell me what you think of this chapter in the Book of Mormon

[BartBurk]

The Book of Mormon teaches that He was eternally God, and that is what I Go by.

Do you believe that God the Father has a Father as well?

 

[ParkerD]

Do you believe that Jesus was ever less than God? Did he progress from a non-God to a God?

BartBurk,
I wanted to add that I agree with Zerinus, and that all the LDS scriptures (including the Bible) point to that same understanding.

 

[zerinus]

Do you believe that God the Father has a Father as well?

He may or may not, I wouldn’t know. That is a speculative question, and I would rather not speculate. There is nothing in canonized LDS scripture that gives a definitive answer to that question one way or another.

 

[Patrick_Joshua]

zerinus, I believe your reading the question wrong.

In your previous posts you claimed;

Quote:
claims of Christianity of three or four hundred years later, then that also does not agree with the claims of the earliest Christianity (or the Bible) either.

Quote:
Take Trinitarian theology for example; there is no trace of that found in the Bible or in what the earliest Christians believed.

I clearly referenced writings before “three of four hundred” years later. Which confirm Catholic teaching. Even on the Blessed Trinity.

I even referenced St.Ignatius an student of the Apostle John.

So your claims that;

Take Trinitarian theology for example; there is no trace of that found in the Bible or in what the earliest Christians believed.

Just fall short.

 

[Patrick_Joshua]

Maybe you want me to reference writings on different Catholic teachings what the early Christians confirmed?

 

[BartBurk]

He may or may not, I wouldn’t know. That is a speculative question, and I would rather not speculate. There is nothing in canonized LDS scripture that gives a definitive answer to that question one way or another.

How about this one:

1. And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest there is a true and living God?

1. And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God.

1. Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God?

1. And he answered, No.

1. Now Zeezrom said unto him again: How knowest thou these things?

1. And he said: An angel hath made them known unto me.

And then of course there are the ones in the Bible which make it clear there were no other Gods. I don’t think it is a matter for speculation.

 

[benidict]

I should add that the only way we can seriously discuss Mormonism with Mormons is to take the Book of Mormon very seriously. If the Book of Mormon is true we have to take the claims of groups that use the Book of Mormon seriously. On the other hand the entire Mormon religion falls apart if the Book of Mormon isn’t what it claims to be. So maybe instead of looking at the doctrines of various Mormon groups we should concentrate on Book of Mormon issues specifically to have a serious discussion.

i would totally agree with you my friend. i also take the BOM seriously, and i do appreciate it when a Mormon who is knowlegeable rightly divides it. it makes more sense to me then. do i believe the BOM? no i do not. but millions do, and there is good to be taken from everything. and i have found many Mormons to be God fearing people who are trying to live out what they believe the Gospel is. i will personally leave their judgment to God. Peace to you and yours.

 

[zerinus]

How about this one:

1. And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest there is a true and living God?
2. And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God.
3. Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God?
4. And he answered, No.
5. Now Zeezrom said unto him again: How knowest thou these things?
6. And he said: An angel hath made them known unto me.

Indeed; here is another nice one from the Book of Moses:

Moses 1:

6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.

But there are also these:

Exodus 7:

1 And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

Psalms 82:

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

John 10:

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods

1 Corinthians 8:

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

John 14:

28 . . . for my Father is greater than I.

John 20:

17 Jesus saith . . . I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

And a plethora of writings from Early Church Fathers affirming that there are many gods, and that men can become gods. The truth is that God’s word is mysterious. There are mysteries in it that God has chosen not to reveal to all of us. To His disciples Jesus said:

Mark 4:

34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

Luke 8:

10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

If you are not careful you can make the same kind of mistake that the Protestants made, and are still making: they focus on a few selective passages of scripture, and ignore a host of others which evidently contradicts it. They focus on a few isolated passages of Paul, which appears to teach justification by faith alone, and ignore ten times as many scriptures which teach the opposite, or something different. So you need to be careful how you interpret scripture to ensure you don’t make that kind of mistake.

 

[zerinus]

How about this one:

1. And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest there is a true and living God?
2. And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God.
3. Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God?
4. And he answered, No.
5. Now Zeezrom said unto him again: How knowest thou these things?
6. And he said: An angel hath made them known unto me.

Indeed; here is another nice one from the Book of Moses:

Moses 1:

6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.

But there are also these:

Exodus 7:

1 And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

Psalms 82:

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

John 10:

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods

1 Corinthians 8:

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

John 14:

28 . . . for my Father is greater than I.

John 20:

17 Jesus saith . . . I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

And a plethora of writings from Early Church Fathers affirming that there are many gods, and that men can become gods. The truth is that God’s word is mysterious. There are mysteries in it that God has chosen not to reveal to all of us. To His disciples Jesus said:

Mark 4:

34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

Luke 8:

10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

If you are not one of those to whom the “mysteries” has been revealed, you would be foolish to jump into conclusions. If we are not careful we can make the same kind of mistake that the Protestants made, and are still making: they focus on a few selective passages of scripture, and ignore a host of others which evidently contradicts it. They focus on a few isolated passages from Paul, which appears to teach “justification by faith alone,” and ignore ten times as many other scriptures which teach the opposite, or something different. So you need to be careful how you interpret scripture to ensure you don’t fall into the same trap.

 

[maximus]

I rented a while ago the first installment of a series (do not know if there have been more produced) on the book of Mormon done by the LDS. It definitely was an interesting story, very hard to believe but entertaining. It does not match up with reality.

As a person of minor Taino descent I am greatful of the LDS efforts in preserving some of the writing of the writings of native Americans. Also, as a Catholic I am grateful to them for their standing with us against some of the evils of today. They are fine Americans, we need more Catholics like them rather than like N. Pelosi and other high profile apostates.

I relation to the book of Mormon the Spalding-Rigdon theory of it’s origin is pretty much where I stand on the book of Mormon.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spalding–Rigdon_theory_of_Book_of_Mormon_authorship
In one of the Catholic Answers “This Rock” issues there is a good article on this.

In religion truth is all or nothing, a Church founded on a false claim even though it’s members are so worthy of admiration is just another branching off into heresy from the truth. If a Christian Church is not Apostolic then it is a waste of time, this is what keep me Catholic despite of the numerous problems within the Church.

God Bless,

 

[FCEGM]

This will help you makes sense of LDS thinking on this topic:

home.earthlink.net/~vanehale/resourcelibrary/id18.html

Thank you for this very interesting article. It seems then that while Mormons can’t say (and don’t seem to want to say) what God is, still they know that whatever He is He has a wife/wives.

 

[zerinus]

Sorry Tom, it looks like I had missed this post:

So if that’s true and say the Apostle Paul subscribed to these LDS beliefs, then his epistles should be chock full of LDS teachings. Yet I’m not aware of any?

I am sure his epistles are “chock full of LDS teachings”! There is certainly nothing in his epistles that we would disagree with. Every doctrine that he teaches is also LDS doctrine, so in that sense at least his epistles are indeed “chock full of LDS teachings”.

 

[zerinus]

Sorry Garry, it looks like I had missed your post too:

I’m not suggesting anything. The news speaks for itself. I watch nothing but reality nor do I read fiction. And I did explain it above. Research it you’ll find it. Two Mormon brothers. The “Universal Church of God” they started, Sound familiar?

And no I can’t think of any Catholics starting ther own religion recently?

I still don’t know what you are referring to. I Googled for “Universal Church of God,” and found nothing that resembles what you are talking about. A link or two would be helpful.

 

[ParkerD]

Thank you for this very interesting article. It seems then that while Mormons can’t say (and don’t seem to want to say) what God is, still they know that whatever He is He has a wife/wives.

FCEGM,
We can indeed describe God the Father, His Only Begotten Son, and the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit, and can understand their complete unity and the oneness of their will. We can also understand that to be “like Them” means to be “one with them” meaning that those who are raised to that state of grace will have the kind of faith they have, the kind of love they have, the kind of unity with Each Other they have, and the kind of all-knowing view of the universe they have that brings that unity to their actions and will. It is not confusing to know that They are One. The Intercessory prayer is not confusing at all about becoming One with Them.

These beliefs and understandings need not be codified into a terminology or a statement to be memorized. It is a unity and love of Them to be lived for, not something to be memorized.

How this relates to the Book of Mormon chapter that was cited in the opening of the thread (2 Nephi 25), is that those verses talk about Jesus Christ as being the Holy One of Israel–thus, the Jehovah of the Old Testament, the One and only Savior, the Rock of Salvation, who was known by the prophets but was not understood by the learned Jews who thought they were wise but did not understand that the law of Moses was a schoolmaster leading to Christ and being lifted up by Him.

Peace to you and all.

 

[zaffiroborant]

FCEGM,
We can indeed describe God the Father, His Only Begotten Son, and the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit, and can understand their complete unity and the oneness of their will. We can also understand that to be “like Them” means to be “one with them” meaning that those who are raised to that state of grace will have the kind of faith they have, the kind of love they have, the kind of unity with Each Other they have, and the kind of all-knowing view of the universe they have that brings that unity to their actions and will. It is not confusing to know that They are One. The Intercessory prayer is not confusing at all about becoming One with Them.

.

What do you mean when you say The Father, Son and, the Holy Spirit have “faith”??

 

[ParkerD]

What do you mean when you say The Father, Son and, the Holy Spirit have “faith”??

Hi, Zaffiroborant,
Thanks for asking for clarification.

I am supposing that the LDS use the word “faith” in a different way than others, since it is understood to mean “the principle of action in all intelligent beings” as taught by Joseph Smith (Lectures on Faith). To exercise “faith” in the ultimate manner is to be able to bring about positive change in the universe through willful, loving direction that is completely motivated by knowledge of the true governing principles of the universe. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, of course, know completely the true governing principles of the universe and thus They govern all matter, energy, and life forms in the universe, and do so by using their “faith”, which to me means that they will always convey “free will” and yet command obedience through perfect love. The elements, matter, energy, and life forms obey them because of their perfect love and their perfect understanding of the governing principles that the Father both ordained and governs by. He ordained those principles and governs by them because they are pure truth.

So when the Savior talked about having the faith to move a mountain, He was talking about exercising the faith necessary that matter (the mountain) would respond to a perfectly loving, purposeful command that the mountain be moved, in accordance with the divine will. (Enoch was evidently able to do that, and Melchizedek, and the brother of Jared, but few men on earth have been able to do that or have had that level of faith to do that.)

I don’t guess that was a very good answer to your question, but it was an attempt. Faith, hope in Christ, and charity are always going to be intertwined and inseparable, and they always imply action, not just passive belief.

 

[JeanMichel]

It’s better to be a lapsed Catholic because Mormons are polytheists and believe that God the father is “Elohim”, one of billions of gods, who came down to the earth and had sex with the virgin Mary. And that’s just silly.

Speaking as someone familiar with their beliefs, that is not accurate. I will leave it to LDS to clarify.

 

[BartBurk]

Indeed; here is another nice one from the Book of Moses:

Moses 1:

6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.

But there are also these:

Exodus 7:

1 And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

Psalms 82:

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

John 10:

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods

1 Corinthians 8:

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

John 14:

28 . . . for my Father is greater than I.

John 20:

17 Jesus saith . . . I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

And a plethora of writings from Early Church Fathers affirming that there are many gods, and that men can become gods. The truth is that God’s word is mysterious. There are mysteries in it that God has chosen not to reveal to all of us. To His disciples Jesus said:

Mark 4:

34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

Luke 8:

10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

If you are not one of those to whom the “mysteries” has been revealed, you would be foolish to jump into conclusions. If we are not careful we can make the same kind of mistake that the Protestants made, and are still making: they focus on a few selective passages of scripture, and ignore a host of others which evidently contradicts it. They focus on a few isolated passages from Paul, which appears to teach “justification by faith alone,” and ignore ten times as many other scriptures which teach the opposite, or something different. So you need to be careful how you interpret scripture to ensure you don’t fall into the same trap.

In other words, Gnosticism. Even if I were to believe in the Book of Mormon I would have to follow one of the groups which descended from Joseph Smith III. The Brighamites are all involved with their mysteries and their secret teachings. They ignore what the Book of Mormon says when they it comes to their secret teachings. In fact I would be most likely to remain a Catholic who simply garners what’s good in the Book of Mormon and ignores the things that don’t make sense.

 

[zerinus]

In other words, Gnosticism.

Sorry to be so blunt, but you don’t know what you are talking about. You seem to know even less about Gnosticism than you do about Mormonism. Here is a link to the Wikipedia article about Gnosticism. Have a look at that, and tell me where is the point of similarity between it and Mormonism. Whether you like it or not, the Bible talks about the “mysteries”. You can’t just brush that aside and call it “Gnosticism”. You have to find an explanation for it from within the context of the scriptures. Even Moses acknowledges that there are secrets that only God knows, and man doesn’t know:

Deuteronomy 29:

29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

You can’t dismiss all of that and just call it Gnosticism. Was Moses a Gnostic? Was Jesus a Gnostic? Were Peter and Paul and Matthew and Mark and John all Gnostics? You can do a bit better than that I hope.

 

[LongJourney]

I would be most likely to remain a Catholic who simply garners what’s good in the Book of Mormon and ignores the things that don’t make sense.