Tell me what you think of this chapter in the Book of Mormon

[LongJourney]

It appears that Utah may under-report suicides. I understand that there is a great stigma to suicide. Particularly if it happens to be related to the social stigma on homosexual inclinations and/or behavior. Just something to think about. You know: “The Miracle of Forgiveness” I could link it, if you want.

 

[ParkerD]

I read the stats very differently.
It looks dangerous to be in a low population density state, or to be a white male over 65, with a handgun. Maybe MT needs a handgun ban on white Seniors

ps, Wisconson is nice people

Todd520 and others,
This is a very sensitive topic that came up on this thread for whatever reason. I am thankful not to have been personally affected by such an occurrence, but the most important outcry by people having that inclination, as noted in the website link, is their loneliness and desperation–the need for friends and a support system. Thus one would expect states such as Alaska and Montana and New Mexico to have higher statistical averages. It means all the more that people ought to pay attention to those around them and seek to be friendly in whatever way, and give the lift of a smile or an encouraging word.

I have a daughter, living and serving in Missouri, whose timely and guided visit to someone who at that time felt depressed and discouraged, turned the corner for that person–so this can happen.

It also happens that the forces of the adversary focus concentrated efforts to discourage youth, to break up families and thus increase the impact of loneliness, and to discourage LDS youth in particular if they allow themselves to be discouraged.

This is one of the reasons why LDS youth leaders are so inspired to urge the youth to stay close to their parents and close to their leaders and others, because the downward spiral of discouragement can close in on a youth in such a short time in their life, particularly if they seek counterfeit methods of a “high” and thus have a double whammy when seeing their “real world.” It is also why LDS youth are encouraged to read the Book of Mormon which has such great insights into the cunning methods of the adversary, and which gives such a powerful witness of the healing and saving power of the atonement of Jesus Christ. The chapter that was cited in the opening of this thread is one such chapter, among several dozen that do that.

Peace and the Lord’s blessings of hope and healing to all readers.

 

[zaffiroborant]

It also happens that the forces of the adversary focus concentrated efforts to discourage youth, to break up families and thus increase the impact of loneliness, and to discourage LDS youth in particular if they allow themselves to be discouraged.

Explain this please.

 

[ParkerD]

Explain this please.

Zaffiroborant,

You are familiar that the “devil and his angels” were “cast out into the earth,” and that they seek to deceive and to bring every kind of discouragement into the minds of people through whatever means they can use to entrap them. This would be particularly true for youth, who at a young age are vulnerable.

Those forces of deception and alienation would of course concentrate with redoubled focus on youth who are in families where they can become “lights” to the world and thus if they become “lights” they will hinder the success of those “cast out angels” or “fallen angels” (deceiving spirits), who would consider it a success if they can discourage anyone and alienate them, but would consider it a double success if they can do so to “youth of promise”. So, they attack with greater concentration (as in more spirits than one attacking one individual youth).

This is why LDS youth are encouraged to be ever vigilant and ever valiant, and to know the truth of the words of the prophet Elisha, whose spiritual eyes saw that “they that be with us are more than they that be with them” and said “Fear not” though the outward odds seemed against them.

 

[benidict]

There are many things short of murder that people do out of bigotry. Have you ever taken a look at the suicide rate by state? suicide.org/suicide-statistics.html#2005 Although the statistics vary from year to year, the states which have the higher concentration of LDS tend to be at the top of the list.

I will pass on the other questions.

Mormon Constitutionalism has more to do with how Mormons interpret the constitution than how the Supreme Court interprets it.

They are no longer bothering me because I moved to Wisconsin, and a very loving and tolerant town that generally understands what I have been through. Have you ever read about the Strangites?

i am glad you are part of a better community my friend. and yes i am familiar with the strangites. although its been awhile since i studied them. is there a fringe element? im sure there is. but this sect is far removed from main stream Mormonism. to paint the average Mormon with a big brush, because of a few fringe loonies is really not that fair in my opinion. and to my knowlege, many Mormons interpret the constitution much like most conservatives would. Peace

 

[benidict]

benidict, thank you for your service.

To militant mormonism, it does exist, though it is definitely a fringey sort of thing. But I don’t think it would take much to push the entire group into militant mode. They are after all premillianiast who see violence as a Sign. Who’s previous prophets called for death oaths against non-mormons, and we see that practiced in places such as how “justice” is viewed by mormons, then and now. Mountain Meadow Massacre being the most famous.

But then again, the Catholic Church has had its militant eras. We just have this idea that we’ve come to a better understanding of the purpose for God’s Church (alibino Opus Dei assassins aside ).

I don’t know that Mormons have come to this point. Remains to be seen.

thank you rebecca. thats my daughters name too, but spelled rebekah. are Mormons pre mill? i never really studied up on that part of their theology. should be interesting. but in fairness to the pre-mill crowd, most of them are not militant. look at the Mennonites for example. they are pacifist. i think you can find this fringe element in any congregation. look at westboro for example. although im not to fond of Baptist, i would not measure them side by side with this congregation. and i doubt westboro, would be able to push the whole of the baptist community, into doing something stupid. but you are right. there have been atrocities commited by the Mormons in their early years. then again, i can point out Orthodox atrocities against Muslims in the former yugoslavia, Catholic atrocities at various times in history, even u.s. government polices aimed at extermitating the native american population of north america. but i doubt a few loonies would be able to tilt the scales and make mainstream Mormons do anything stupid also. i just cant see Marie Osmond coming at me with a butcher knife. shes just too pretty! Peace

 

[LongJourney]

many Mormons interpret the constitution much like most conservatives would.

There is a lot of pressure among Mormons to adhere to a very conservative agenda. Harry Reid, for example, is a good man. He is getting increasingly unpopular among the LDS, simply because he is not a conservative Republican Mormon. Similarly, Mitt Romney is also not conservative enough for many LDS. The people I am talking about, I call “Skousenites” Do some research on that political subset among Mormondom.

There is a new trend among LDS to stay in the LDS church despite unbelief in much of Mormonism. These rational people can prevent LDS radicalization.

Beware of pretty LDS women. The discomforts of a mixed marriage could change your mind. :nope:

 

[ParkerD]

are Mormons pre mill? i never really studied up on that part of their theology. should be interesting. but in fairness to the pre-mill crowd, most of them are not militant. look at the Mennonites for example. they are pacifist… i think you can find this fringe element in any congregation. Peace

Benedict,
Thanks for the “vote of confidence.”

Just to let you know a little more about being “pre-Millennial”, which I would say that LDS quite definitely are, then that means we fully expect that the day will come when “swords shall” (be beaten into) “plowshares, and spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more” (Isaiah 2:4) and “earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea” (Isaiah 11:9) and “all thy children shall be taught of the Lord, and great shall be the peace of thy children”. (Isaiah 54:13)

As the Book of Mormon explains,

Mormon 4:5 But, behold, the judgments of God will overtake the wicked; and it is by the wicked that the wicked are punished; for it is the wicked that stir up the hearts of the children of men unto bloodshed.

1 Ne. 14: 14
14 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory.

To be “armed with righteousness” means to be “armed with the authority of the priesthood”, prepared with the peace of covenant-making and covenant-keeping knowing that the “battle is the Lord’s”, and:

Doctrine and Covenants 27:15 Wherefore, lift up your hearts and rejoice, and gird up your loins, and take upon you my whole armor, that ye may be able to withstand the evil day, having done all, that ye may be able to stand.
16 Stand, therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, having on the breastplate of righteousness, and your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace, which I have sent mine angels to commit unto you;
17 Taking the shield of faith wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked;
18 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of my Spirit, which I will pour out upon you, and my word which I reveal unto you, and be agreed as touching all things whatsoever ye ask of me, and be faithful until I come, and ye shall be caught up, that where I am ye shall be also.

Also, just to make it very plain what the “sword of my Spirit” is,

Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance…

If there is fighting among the “wicked” nations of the earth and some of those nations turn on each other, then that is a sign of the times but while that day seems to be upon the world, the gospel is to go forth among all nations and those who in their hearts want to be gathered to the spiritual Zion and have a “covert from storm” and “not learn war anymore” will be so gathered. It is the effect of gaining the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, who heralds peace always.

 

[LongJourney]

Parker, your posts usually feed me. I am not ignoring you, it is just that I cannot disagree with much of what you post.

 

[Big_Dummy]

something sounding true does not make it true.

Besides, I doubt God speaks King James English in 1830.

apologeticspress.org/rr/reprints/Book-of-Mormon.pdf

 

[zaffiroborant]

Zaffiroborant,

Those forces of deception and alienation would of course concentrate with redoubled focus on youth who are in families where they can become “lights” to the world and thus if they become “lights” they will hinder the success of those “cast out angels” or “fallen angels” (deceiving spirits), who would consider it a success if they can discourage anyone and alienate them, but would consider it a double success if they can do so to “youth of promise”. So, they attack with greater concentration (as in more spirits than one attacking one individual youth).

Oh of course, the youth of promise would be found predominantly in LDS families.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker, your posts usually feed me. I am not ignoring you, it is just that I cannot disagree with much of what you post.

Hey, thanks, LongJourney! I appreciate this comment. (I also noticed when you remarked recently that I “preached Christianity” if I remember correctly, and I appreciated that also even if it means I “preach”–which one could certainly say I resemble that remark.)

 

[ParkerD]

Oh of course, the youth of promise would be found predominantly in LDS families.

Zaffiroborant,
While it’s true enough that there are “youth of promise” in LDS families and those “fallen angels” strike there as the opportunity arises when youth “let their guard down” and sometimes become alienated, there are definitely “youth of promise” throughout the world in many religions or not yet having found their “religious moorings”, and no question that those “fallen angels” are attacking them also so that they don’t become “lights” among those they would otherwise grow to lead toward the “light” of peace in every nation on earth.

So my hope is that every youth in the world is getting the opportunity to be shored up in their “shield of righteousness”, and that putting on the “whole armor of God” means something to them.

 

[LongJourney]

It is also a counter to some LDS who accuse me of hating ALL LDS. If one were to draw a Venn diagram of LDS who are also Christian in their beliefs, the intersection would be MUCH smaller than Catholics who are Christian. There would still be an intersection. Many LDS would call you heterodox. As to the size of that intersection, I don’t know. My own experiences give me some bias.

 

[ParkerD]

something sounding true does not make it true.

Besides, I doubt God speaks King James English in 1830.

BD,
(I wrote this as a response yesterday, and it applies to your comment as well.)

The LDS believe that William Tyndale was definitely inspired as he translated the Holy Bible into English “that a plow-boy could read”. As students of the Bible are usually aware, William Tyndale’s translation became the major basis for the King James Translation of the Holy Bible when that translation was completed.

This was a period of time of major solidifying of English usage, meanings, and expanded language–contributed to in a major way by the King James Bible translation, and also by such notable and gifted writers as the author who used the name “William Shakespeare”, John Milton, John Bunyan, and several others who refined and enhanced the English language.

The idea of having scripture written in that refined, standard-setting language that is not paralleled in modern language usage, makes complete sense to me as being inspired by God. The scriptures should elevate the mind, and the language of communication used for the scriptures should thus be elevating, and set a standard that should hold firm for generations, giving children a basis for maintaining the deep roots of their language, even if it doesn’t match how they talk every day.

So, my answer is that Joseph Smith (familiar with the King James Bible but still a young man as he translated) was inspired in the translation of the Book of Mormon, just as William Tyndale was inspired in the translation of the Holy Bible, and the two scriptural books join for those who study them both as another means of standardizing the preservation of elegant, inspired language patterns. Translations into other languages would seek to do that also, I would surmise, as a means of also preserving standardized, elevated usage patterns in those other languages as well.

So the short answer is that God has an interest in uplifting language and communication, and in preserving the roots of beautiful, poetic and deeply meaningful language of every “mother tongue”.

 

[LongJourney]

Woops. Complimenting you does have its consequences.

Solomon Spalding is said to have written in KJE. In fact, upon reading the BoM one of his friends said “Old ‘It came to pass.’ has come back alive.” Many passages from the Bible were lifted verbatim. Others were paraphrased. It was all part of the fraud.

 

[LongJourney]

You really ought to read this: cassiusuniversity.wordpress.com/mcb/

 

[Anglican_Gal]

I have just finished reading the Book of Mormon through 2 Nephi. A lot of 2 Nephi quotes chapters from Isaiah. After quoting these chapters, Nephi begins to interpret them in 2 Nephi 25. I’d be curious to know how people feel about what they read in 2 Nephi 25:

scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/25

According to the Book of Mormon this chapter was written between 559 and 545 B.C.

Hi Bart: I’ve directed a cult apologetics ministry in NJ before moving out west - and although my expertise wasn’t at that time in Mormonism, since moving out west, I’ve become somewhat of an expert in it. What you need to remember is that the Book of Mormon has many anachronism - in other words, passages which simply do not fit the time period or the historical setting. Much of Joseph Smith’s book was plagiarized from the King James Bible, which (according to the supposed timeline of the Book of Mormon) hadn’t even been written when Nephi and others were using King James language.

As far as the chapter you site, consider that it is in the Old Testament portion of the Book of Mormon, totally anachronistic, since Christ had not been born. Jews in America were supposed to be practicing Chritianity prior to Jesus’ birth, and teaching New Testament concepts before the Lord’s incarnation, even performing baptisms. This would be a giant alert that whoever wrote the Book of Mormon (and I believe, personally, that it was compiled by Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon, using some pre-existing material, including View of the Hebrews) had the New Testament at hand and attempted to retroject Christianity into a New World, Old Testament setting.

It’s important to remember that the Roman Catholic Church, with good reason, does not accept the “baptisms” performed in Mormon churches, since Mormonism denies the Blessed Trinity, the full Deity of Christ (they believe he had to “attain” godhood), and calls the Roman Church the great and abominable church. Mormonism’s goal is to appear Christian, and their missionaries attempt to project that appearance, however an indepth study of their doctrine reveals that Mormonism is far from Christian.

Mormons believe they can become gods and goddesses in the Celestial Kingdom (they believe there are three heavenly destinations in the afterlife), and eternally procreate spirit children who will be sent to experience mortal life and populate an earth over which their parents will rule, the father “god” being their “heavenly father.” They believe, likewise, that the “heavenly father” of this earth had a father god, who in turn had another father god, etc. In Mormonism there are a multitude of gods ruling over various kingdoms - it is, therefore, polytheistic.

The Book of Mormon contains none of this information, because Mormonism developed as Joseph Smith felt “inspired,” and the true doctrines of Mormonism are found in Doctrines and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price and Book of Abraham. The Book of Abraham, which Smith claimed to have translated from mummy wrappings has been proven to be a typical Egyptian funeral document used to send the dead on their way to the afterlife, and has nothing to do with Abraham at all. This has been a major embarassment to the LDS.

Unless you have access to information exposing the errors of Mormonism, and bone up on that prior to reading the Book of Mormon, it’s probably best not to read the Book of Mormon (which contains none of the unique doctrines of Mormonism - such as baptism for the dead, men becoming gods, etc.). There are sound sites on the internet which offer an overview of Mormonism from a non-sectarian basis, including Mormons in Transition, which you might wish to consult since the site is run by former Mormons who have come to realize that Mormonism is cultic.

The primary work exploring Mormon history and doctrine is “Mormonism - Shadow or Reality” by the Tanners available from Utah Lighhouse Ministry. The Tanners were both Mormon, and have an incredible amount of documentation and photocopies in their book -and have a lot more information available on their site: utlm.org/ Also, “The Kingdom of the Cults” by the late Walter Martin is packed full of information and is often available in public libraries.

Just so you know, I’m Anglican (also known as Catholic retreads!)

 

[Pahoran]

You really ought to read this: cassiusuniversity.wordpress.com/mcb/

Indeed. If anyone wants to see how low some people are willing to go to demonise those they hate, they really ought to read it.

Preferably not on a full stomach, though.

I am preparing a critique on your hate tract, LJ. I will post it here when it is complete.

Regards,
Pahoran

 

[LongJourney]

Thank you, Pahoran. I will be eager to read it. I’m always willing to make changes in response to my critics. Obviously, the changes will not necessarily please you, but I do want to plug as many holes as I can.