Tell me what you think of this chapter in the Book of Mormon

[zaffiroborant]

But there was not a situation of prophecies about immediate future events as a major focus for the work of the prophets. They were more “steady as she goes” than “such and such is going to happen” in their words to the people.

Even so, LDS prophets have certainly forewarned about tough economic times (now upon us in the world) and the need for preparing and living conservatively, have forewarned about media becoming saturated with advertising that would lead to unhealthy behaviors (such as smoking); have forewarned about the need for families to stay close to each other and have family prayer and family scripture study and family time together because the world was going to operate in ways that would attempt to pull families apart and draw them away from loving God.

Many preachers, priests and, popes have also warned of these things, not to mention all the secular people who speak on these subjects, Suzie Orman, Dr. Oz, Deepak Chopra. What you list is simply, secular or spiritual common sense. There is of course the question of how common common-sense is.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anna,

Yes, I do.

I guess I’ll make three points here to give background for that short answer to your question.

First, if we read those passages in the New Testament that talk about “falling prey to false prophets, etc.” then we also read about some of their qualities including either what they preach or how they live, such as the following passage in 2 John: . . . . .

I agree that what one preaches does expose a false prophet. The Christ of Mormonism is not the Christ of Christian orthodoxy. Your own leaders have made that clear. The god you worship was once a man, and is not the God of Christian orthodoxy. The belief in the Holy Trinity is not the same in Mormonism. These issues have been discussed on countless threads. So, I’m not trying to open that discussion again. I’m simply agreeing with you that one can identify a false prophet by what he preaches.

. . . . .The “evil deeds” John writes about are if a “deceiver” “confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh” or doesn’t “love one another” or doesn’t “walk after his commandments” or when in transgression (meaning doing something short of perfection), doesn’t repent as Christ taught to do. The gospel is about repentance for sin, and believing that Jesus Christ came “in the flesh” and has the power to heal from sin.

I agree. The Gospel is about repentance; and Jesus did come in the flesh; and he does have the power to heal; but that is only part of the Gospel.

Deceit, however, comes in many forms. Preaching a false gospel and a false Christ are forms of deceit.

Christ always taught “look for their fruits”. I think you were acting out of genuine love for God and Christ when you made the choice you made, and you certainly believed that “Jesus Christ is come in the flesh”, and at that time you would have had “good fruit” in how you were living your life. So changing your mind would not require repentance since you were still going to be loving God, loving Christ, loving others, keeping the commandments, and bringing forth “good fruits”. The “before” condition was going to be the same as the “after” condition in those aspects of living the gospel.

Indeed, we are to look at the fruits; but that is not the only criteria for determining the true Gospel of Christ. An Atheist can be a humanitarian and can live a good life; while denying the existence of God.

I didn’t just “change my mind.” I realized I had been seduced by a false gospel and my eyes were opened to see the darkness I had embraced. The “before” condition was not going to be the same as the “after” condition.

. . . . .So I wasn’t trying to say we shouldn’t trust our genuine feelings, only that some few have a “gift of discerning of spirits”, and others (many) don’t.

You really are in no position to judge whether or not anyone has the “gift of discerning spirits.”

I think the Bible gives a basis for distinguishing, and it’s on the basis of the results (the fruits, meaning day-to-day actions). But even so, the Savior will have compassion on all genuine actions of the heart that also include having loved God and having sought to keep His commandments.

The basis for spiritual discernment is not based only on “the results.”

. . . . . .Third point: I think it is unwise to base the picture one draws for their life on any single religious experience.

False assumption. I never said I draw the picture for my life from this one single experience. I have had numerous experiences of spiritual throughout my life.

I don’t think the New Testament shows the Holy Ghost working in that way, usually. (Everyone is not a Saul/Paul.)

I’m not claiming to be Saul/Paul. Again, it’s really not up to you to decide in what way the Holy Ghost works.

In Christ,
Anna

Edited to add:

. . . . .I’m rather shocked that you would claim there is no need for repentance when one realizes they have embraced a false gospel. Do you really believe that?

Are you still maintaining that embracing a false gospel does not require repentance?

 

[SteveVH]

SteveVH,
I was respecting that you had asked that I “lay off.” I have no problem responding to your comments, since evidently that is now what you would like me to do.

My comment that you “lay off” was concerning your personal comments and judgments Parker, not the discussion. So I do appreciate your response.

If as you say “evil has a bad spiritual odor” then everyone should be always choosing good because no one likes a bad odor around them. This would be forcing behavior, regardless that you don’t think so.

The comment about children and drugs gives a similar situation. If God were interested in seeing to it that no one gets involved with drug use and God uses feelings of “illness” to bring people toward the choices He wants them to make, then He would cause an “illness” before a person moves toward taking drugs, and they would not do it. They would have reacted to the negative situation, and chosen against being ill and there would be a cause-and-effect relationship in that the idea of that choice leads to the “illness” and that leads to not choosing drug use.

Instead, the dark spirits do indeed tempt toward taking illicit drugs and there is no precursor of illness; instead there is a false “high” and perhaps manipulative “friends” and soon the person becomes addicted to that false “high”. To be warned is not the same thing as to have been made “ill” or even to have sensed some “bad spiritual odor”.

I would say, with little doubt, that anyone who decides to use drugs smells a “bad spiritual odor”, however the promise of pleasure, the allure of the flesh, wins out. Even after being warned spiritually, the flesh prevails, the lie is accepted and the choice is made. That is why it is sin. If we were all wandering around without a clue as to right or wrong we could not be held culpable for our actions. It’s called an informed conscience.

In the case of the BoM, the temptation of the flesh is absent. All we have is the bad spiritual odor. I find no temptation to read it, only a spiritually instinctive urge to run away.

God warns through the scriptures and the words of the prophets, but does not warn through “illness” or through “bad spiritual odor” because those are elements of forced behavior. But the dark spirits certainly would want a person to think an ill feeling or “bad spiritual odor” is God talking to the person, because they can then mimic those qualities–which they are allowed to do by God since He is never about forced choices yet allows the dark spirits to have a place on the earth temporarily. So that is what they do when given the chance, and when given the attention by the person.

You again miss the entire point that has been made over and over. God does not cause the bad feelings, Parker, it is caused by the falsehood of the Book of Mormon; just as God does not cause the odor of a rotting carcass; it is caused by death and decay. Instead, God has only equiped us to recognize it. How many times must this be said?
Do you find these words unreasonable? Do you throw food away when you recognize that it is too old to eat and may cause sickness? Or do you just eat it anyway and take your chances? It is no diffrent in the spiritual realm.

 

[ParkerD]

Do you find these words unreasonable?

SteveVH,
Yes, I do.

You may go ahead and give a specific example from the book itself of the “falsehood of the Book of Mormon.” (I assure you that I will then follow up and refute it, and show examples directly from the Bible that refute the purported “falsehood”.)

Deceiving spirits are more interested in creating “bad spiritual odors” that deceive people than God would ever be, since God is all about giving humankind their free will agency.

Anna Scott,

No need to look and see if I am going to respond to your comment. We simply aren’t communicating at all.

 

[SteveVH]

SteveVH,
Yes, I do.

You may go ahead and give a specific example from the book itself of the “falsehood of the Book of Mormon.” (I assure you that I will then follow up and refute it, and show examples directly from the Bible that refute the purported “falsehood”.)

Deceiving spirits are more interested in creating “bad spiritual odors” that deceive people than God would ever be, since God is all about giving humankind their free will agency.

Anna Scott,

No need to look and see if I am going to respond to your comment. We simply aren’t communicating at all.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Parker,

I think you are missing the whole issue of “spiritual discernment” of which the Bible speaks; and the battle that is fought in the spiritual realm.

The New Testament has much to say about falling prey to false prophets, false apostles, etc. I’m rather shocked that you would claim there is no need for repentance when one realizes they have embraced a false gospel. Do you really believe that?

In Christ,
Anna

SteveVH,
Yes, I do.

You may go ahead and give a specific example from the book itself of the “falsehood of the Book of Mormon.” (I assure you that I will then follow up and refute it, and show examples directly from the Bible that refute the purported “falsehood”.)

Deceiving spirits are more interested in creating “bad spiritual odors” that deceive people than God would ever be, since God is all about giving humankind their free will agency.

Anna Scott,

No need to look and see if I am going to respond to your comment. We simply aren’t communicating at all.

Parker,
As you wish.

Anna

 

[ParkerD]

SteveVH,
It wasn’t hard to figure out that you not only would not be able to do that, but that your only basis for your statements about “bad spiritual odor” or “feeling sick” is a subjective response to an unfamiliar piece of writing (meaning yours alone, without actually reading the book or considering its messages through first-hand experience).

 

[LongJourney]

Alma 16 on the consequences of war:

16:9 And thus ended the eleventh year of the Judges, the Lamanites having been driven out of the land, and the people of Ammonihah were destroyed; yea, every living soul of the Ammonihahites were destroyed , and also their great city, which they said God could not destroy, because of its greatness.
16:10 --But behold, in one day it was left desolate; and their carcases were mangled by dogs and wild beasts of the wilderness;
16:11 nevertheless, after many days, their dead bodies were heaped up upon the face of the earth, and they were covered with a shallow covering. And now so great was the scent thereof, that the people did not go in to possess the land of Ammonihah for many years. And it was called desolation of Nehors; for they were of the profession of Nehor, which were slain; and their lands remained desolate.

The Ammonihahites were the “bad” people, every one of them, according to the BoM. And Alma and his Nephites killed them, every last one.

Thank you, Parker, for giving me the opportunity to post this.

 

[ParkerD]

Alma 16 on the consequences of war:

The Ammonihahites were the “bad” people, every one of them, according to the BoM. And Alma and his Nephites killed them, every last one.

Thank you, Parker, for giving me the opportunity to post this.

LJ,
Thanks, so I could clarify your misunderstanding of the part you evidently didn’t read which was not some mystery text–it was very simple to understand.

First, the Ammonihahites were not all “bad people”. Many had been killed by their own people. One among them, Amulek, became Alma’s companion doing “missionary work” beginning in Alma chapter 10 and later, who had hosted Alma at his house (in the city of Ammonihah) and came to understand that Alma was teaching the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

Second, the Nephites tried to protect the Ammonihahites from the Lamanites, but the Lamanites made a surprise attack and destroyed the city of Ammonihah “in one day” (v. 10), as recounted in Alma 16:2-3. That also is explained in the chapter heading. The Nephites immediately sent a party to try and recover the people (some of them Ammonihahites) who had been taken captive by the Lamanites as recounted in Alma 16.

So you had it completely wrong, LJ.

 

[LongJourney]

And all Lamanites who did not become Ammonites, and all Ammonihahites who did not listen to Alma and Amulek and convert were killed in this war, because they would not convert?

Alma and Amulek’s Ammonihahites left before the city fell, didn’t they?

 

[CEM5]

The Book of Mormon is a false testimony, with many parts plagarized from the KJV (errors included!).

There is no other testimony from Christ - He came once for all, and all revelation of Christ was fulfilled.

Heed the words of Holy Scripture:

Galations 1:6-7
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel-- 7 not that there is another gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.

Galatians 1:8
But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed.

Gee, seems that Joseph Smith was preached a gospel (by an “angel”) contrary to that of what the Apostles preached, so he must be accursed, and his book of Mormon as well.

Similar to what the Muslims claim. They too were preached the Koran by an “angel”.

Hmmm…both Mohammed and Smith were illiterate and had scribes write for them. Both claimed to have been given true revelations. Both were men of immoral character…

Gee. They founded their own religions, and rejected the truth of Christ.

The devil always uses some truth to lure people, but then twists lies throughout those truths, for that is what he does. He is the “father of lies”, and woe to those men who are beguiled by him and do not follow Christ and His Apostles.

So, in effect Mormons call Jesus a liar for they claim the Church fell into apostacy, and Christ was quite clear that

Matthew 16 (KJV)
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and** the gates of hell shall not prevail against it**. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

This Church is the Catholic Church that was established by Christ with the Apostles as its foundation and Peter as its rock! Not the Mormon church that was founded in the nineteenth century by that adulterer Joseph Smith.

 

[LongJourney]

The devil always uses some truth to lure people, but then twists lies throughout those truths, for that is what he does. He is the “father of lies”, and woe to those men who are beguiled by him and do not follow Christ and His Apostles.

Parker I can see when you post, but I don’t have to look at it.

 

[ParkerD]

And all Lamanites who did not become Ammonites, and all Ammonihahites who did not listen to Alma and Amulek and convert were killed in this war, because they would not convert?

Alma and Amulek’s Ammonihahites left before the city fell, didn’t they?

LJ,
Again, you didn’t read–not even what I wrote, let alone the Book of Mormon text.

Some of the Ammonihahites were taken captive–meaning they weren’t killed. The others who were killed weren’t killed “because they wouldn’t convert”–they were killed by the Lamanites merely because the Lamanites wanted to control more territory. These were territorial wars by the Lamanites against a peace-loving people who were defending their homes and families, and even defended a group (the Ammonihahites) who had already turned against them (the Nephites) and had killed their own Ammonihahite people.

As far as your recent post, I have no idea who you were quoting or why.

Bye, LJ.

 

[ParkerD]

…
In Christ,
Anna

Edited to add:

Are you still maintaining that embracing a false gospel does not require repentance?

Anna (if you ever read this thread again),

When I responded by saying we weren’t communicating, I either had missed your edit or it came after my post.

So, to answer you or anyone wondering the same question:

If a person was acting out of the sincerity of their heart and directly in accordance with the Bible in loving God and loving Christ and loving others, and later decided they wanted to change religions, then that doesn’t mean they needed to “repent” for how they had acted in the sincerity of their heart and kept the commandments to the best of intentions and the best of their efforts so to do.

God is not so small-minded as to require that the word use in worshiping Him be precisely according to some formula prescribed by whomever. Those who worship Him in the sincerity of their heart, and learn something new that leads them to change religions but yet are still worshiping Him in the sincerity of their heart, have not sinned during the “before” stage if they were repenting of real actions that needed to be repented of such as getting angry or being judgmental or being unloving in a personal relationship.

Thus, the answer to your question is emphatically “yes” from the standpoint of loving God “before” and loving God “after” a change in religions when the sincere actions were there and sincere repentance was occurring from real sins during both intervals of time, in accordance with clear Christ-centered Biblical teachings.

Thus also, your point about an atheist has not the slightest bearing on the question.

 

[yankee_drifter]

Anna,

Yes, I do.

I guess I’ll make three points here to give background for that short answer to your question.

First, if we read those passages in the New Testament that talk about “falling prey to false prophets, etc.” then we also read about some of their qualities including either what they preach or how they live, such as the following passage in 2 John:

The book of Deuteronomy tells us how to test a prophet. If he makes even one false prophecy (regardless of having made some true prophecies) he is a false prophet. A prophet appointed by God cannot make a single false prophecy as he is God’s very mouthpiece.

Did Joseph Smith ever make any false prophecies? If you say no, can you show me how you have come to that conclusion.

 

[yankee_drifter]

LJ,
Again, you didn’t read–not even what I wrote, let alone the Book of Mormon text.

Some of the Ammonihahites were taken captive–meaning they weren’t killed. The others who were killed weren’t killed “because they wouldn’t convert”–they were killed by the Lamanites merely because the Lamanites wanted to control more territory. These were territorial wars by the Lamanites against a peace-loving people who were defending their homes and families, and even defended a group (the Ammonihahites) who had already turned against them (the Nephites) and had killed their own Ammonihahite people.

As far as your recent post, I have no idea who you were quoting or why.

Bye, LJ.

Why is it that not a single remain of these BoM people have ever been unearthed? Nor evidence any of those battles took place? Not even a coin have been dug up.

 

[LongJourney]

Put, Parker, this fiction says that all this death and destruction was the Mormon god’s doing BECAUSE they refused to convert to Alma’s religion. And why were the Ammonites deprived of the right of self-defense??

The destruction of Ammonihah City was presented as the Mormon god’s “justice”.

That post I quoted was from CEM5.

 

[yankee_drifter]

SteveVH,
Yes, I do.

You may go ahead and give a specific example from the book itself of the “falsehood of the Book of Mormon.” (I assure you that I will then follow up and refute it, and show examples directly from the Bible that refute the purported “falsehood”.)

Deceiving spirits are more interested in creating “bad spiritual odors” that deceive people than God would ever be, since God is all about giving humankind their free will agency.

Anna Scott,

No need to look and see if I am going to respond to your comment. We simply aren’t communicating at all.

With all due respect Parker, it would take pages to show the errors of the BoM. The mode of weapons, transportation, machinery, steel, glass, and many other things which did not exist in that time period. The Bom indicates the tremendous spread of the cultures of these races, and numerous cities and great battles. However archeological research and historians have found nothing. You also have the Mongoloid factor. Ask any Native American if his descendants were lamanites (who were of the Semitic race) and he will be swift to correct you. The BoM also has many anachronisms and contradictions.

Like I said, it would take pages to discuss each of these problems individually.

 

[LongJourney]

The most glaring anachronism, for me, is in Ether, supposedly long before the time of Jesus, where the criminals search the scripture while plotting to kill someone. They happen on to the death of John the Baptist.

 

[ParkerD]

The book of Deuteronomy tells us how to test a prophet. If he makes even one false prophecy (regardless of having made some true prophecies) he is a false prophet. A prophet appointed by God cannot make a single false prophecy as he is God’s very mouthpiece.

Did Joseph Smith ever make any false prophecies? If you say no, can you show me how you have come to that conclusion.

Yankee Drifter,

I disagree with your understanding of the passage in Deuteronomy, but in answer about Joseph Smith and prophecy, my answer is that he never made false prophecies, and I have been able to explain whenever anyone has tried to demonstrate otherwise through whatever source they come up with.