Tempted by Orthodoxy

[Cat_Herder]

Cat Herder, if you get a chance read my thread posted today about what I heard at a diocesan congress.

I saw it. After what happened with the NAB footnotes, it isn’t surprising.

Solution: at the parish level, better catechesis, more catechists; above, bishops putting their feet down.

I was really disappointed…not going to leave the Church…but I want the most traditional parish I can find! (I think I’m in it!) : )

Traditional is good, as long as it’s not too traditional as in, say, sedevacantist.

 

[crazzeto]

I hesitate to do this, because people will make it about each individual case and that’s not the point. The point is the overall movement within The Church. Nevertheless here are some of the things I see that, to me, bring into question The Church’s belief in Christ:

**From the catechism: **841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330

Pope John Paul II’s action here

Are you suggesting then, that it is impossible for a Muslim to make it to heaven? Or are you suggesting that Muslims do not profess to hold the same faith of Abraham even if their understanding of it is in error?

In light of this why have I never heard a homily preaching on the sin of homosexuality? Why have I never heard a sermon on sin? Why have I only heard one on contraception, considering this, and that was at a daily Mass? All of this despite the fact that I went to a conservative parish? I did get my bishop’s letter on the evils of those who are against illegal immigration.

I don’t think you are paying very close attention to what the Bishops have been saying, to be perfectly honest. Do you take home your church bulletin? Do you read what your Bishops write? Do you keep up with the USCCB? I can’t very well imagine you do, as you couldn’t have posted this objection if you didn’t.

Though again, you make an error in your argumentation. Here you suggest that the Bishops not preaching about homosexuality (the sinfulness of) is evidence of church compramise. You are incorrect, the church has never changed her stance. In fact you may wish to read this link:

catholicnewsagency.com/news/same-sex_marriage_law_forces_d.c._catholic_charities_to_close_adoption_program/

Why is the Novus Ordo so aesthetically bankrupt, especially when we see the beauty in the Divine Liturgy and the Tridentine (which I attend. I’m lucky - there are two, exactly two such Masses in my entire diocese and one happens to be in my city now. How gracious of my bishop to provide for his flock). Why do we see this happening? Why has the (strongly) arguably heretical translation of “Pro multis” been allowed to be used for over forty years?

I disagree that there is anything wrong with the Ordinary Form, and if you would study and understand it I think you would probably come to the same conclusion. Now I do understand that for many, the Tridentine just feels right. If that’s the case for you, then I suggest rather than leaving the Sea of Peter, I would instead suggest you find a parish were you can more regularly attend the Tridentines Mass.

With regard to liturgical abuses, guess what they exist… In fact they’ve always existed, and they also exist out east. So does modernism, and a host of other problems. For instance, you point out how Catholics in this nation seem to be “losing the faith” (because they’re not a part of the tea party?). How about Russia, where odds are better than 50/50 that you will be aborted by your mother. I don’t mean to suggest that there is anything fundamentally wrong with what our Russian Orthodox brothers and sisters are doing, but rather to remind you to take a more fair look at the picture.

You have liturgical abuse, east and west. You have the West dechristianizing, you have the east dechristianizing. There is right now, a fundamental problem with our culture. Father Carapi on one of his wonderful programs, wondered aloud whether the following applied to us

"a monk asked his superior:
Will people in the future fast like us? Will they pray like us? Will they practice mortification like we do?

The superior answered:
No, they will be far weaker and softer. But they will be greater than us, for we fight satan chained, they will fight satan unchained"

I often have also wondered the same, is it us? Are we fighting satan unchained? Obviously none of us can answer that, but I can understand and sympathise with the temptation to believe so, considering the world is spinning out of control so fast.

Could it be Pope Leo XIII really did witness Jesus give satan the time and power needed to try and destroy the church?

Right now I’m in communion with this parish, which is suffering no repercussions from what I can tell, but this organization is treated like lepers.

I could be entirely wrong. I may have to admit that The Church is going through a crises just as the Jews not obeying God in the Old Testament but still possessing The Truth, even if they didn’t know it.Honestly that is the position I lean towards right now. I’m no longer able, however, to lightly ignore these or just focus on the positive in the Church. The hierarchy needs to get it’s act together, and I mean now.

 

[mardukm]

One of the things that impresses me most about Catholicism is the character of people that wish to join her. I’ve personally never met a convert to Catholicism who left their former life angry. Something about Catholicism really inspires that peace that knows no comprehension. In distinction, people who leave Catholicism seem like very angry people, and once they have left, they spend an inordinate amount of time attacking the Catholic Church. Of course it doesn’t help when the organization they enter after having left Catholicism promotes anti-Catholicism.

That’s just what I’ve observed from my own experience, not a generalization.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Cat_Herder]

**From the catechism: **841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330

The Church affirms that all salvation is through Christ; however we are not to usurp Christ’s judgment seat and declare that all members of Religion X are going to hell. Because salvation is through Christ, it is Christ who decides that.

How is affirming Christ’s role as Just Judge denying His saving work in any way?

Pope John Paul II’s action here

Would you react the same way if he had kissed a Protestant Bible? A Hebrew Bible? The Talmud?

In light of this why have I never heard a homily preaching on the sin of homosexuality? Why have I never heard a sermon on sin? Why have I only heard one on contraception, considering this, and that was at a daily Mass? All of this despite the fact that I went to a conservative parish? I did get my bishop’s letter on the evils of those who are against illegal immigration.

Do you think that [Westboro Baptist Church](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro Baptist Church) is helping homosexuals to recover with their sermons against homosexuality?

I could be entirely wrong. I may have to admit that The Church is going through a crises just as the Jews not obeying God in the Old Testament but still possessing The Truth, even if they didn’t know it.Honestly that is the position I lean towards right now. I’m no longer able, however, to lightly ignore these or just focus on the positive in the Church. The hierarchy needs to get it’s act together, and I mean now.

The Catholic Church: Proudly Going Through A Crisis For Two Thousand Years.™

 

[Rawb]

Thanks to the few people who actually helped.

The rest of you obviously were not listening to what I was saying. I’m not a member of the tea party, and have no idea what their platform is, but thanks. Yes I would be just as offended if Pope John Paul II had kissed any other work as full of blasphemy and heresy (comparing the Hebrew Bible to the koran? Are you serious?), but I guess I just recognize the pope can sin and make mistakes, unlike many of you. Just because Westboro fails in one extreme it does not follow that we must fail in the other, but nice try.

It will help you if you actually take time to read what the person is saying (such as where I pointed out that I didn’t want to make this about each individual episode but more of an observation of a trend, which was followed by people breaking down each episode). Half of you appeared to skim what I said, and respond to what I didn’t.

Three or four people helped me here. The rest of you pushed me farther away from The Church. Thank God y’all are not my only source of support within The Catholic Church or I would be hightailing it out of here. Thank you to the few who helped. As for the rest of you, I’m done. I won’t be responding to this thread again.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Yes I would be just as offended if Pope John Paul II had kissed any other work as full of blasphemy and heresy (comparing the Hebrew Bible to the koran? Are you serious?),

I wasn’t comparing them. Both books are asserted by the respective religion as the complete and final Word of God and neither is the Christian Bible. That’s the only parallel.

but I guess I just recognize the pope can sin and make mistakes, unlike many of you.

We know the pope can sin. We also know the pope can make mistakes when the infallible magisterium is not involved.

Just because Westboro fails in one extreme it does not follow that we must fail in the other, but nice try.

I admit that example was a bit extreme; I am bringing it up only to show that (as you have amply made clear) condemnation is not ministry.

It will help you if you actually take time to read what the person is saying (such as where I pointed out that I didn’t want to make this about each individual episode but more of an observation of a trend, which was followed by people breaking down each episode).

How we are supposed to answer you without breaking down each episode, I don’t know.

I am praying for your discernment.

 

[dswearin]

Thanks to the few people who actually helped.

The rest of you obviously were not listening to what I was saying. I’m not a member of the tea party, and have no idea what their platform is, but thanks. Yes I would be just as offended if Pope John Paul II had kissed any other work as full of blasphemy and heresy (comparing the Hebrew Bible to the koran? Are you serious?), but I guess I just recognize the pope can sin and make mistakes, unlike many of you. Just because Westboro fails in one extreme it does not follow that we must fail in the other, but nice try.

It will help you if you actually take time to read what the person is saying (such as where I pointed out that I didn’t want to make this about each individual episode but more of an observation of a trend, which was followed by people breaking down each episode). Half of you appeared to skim what I said, and respond to what I didn’t.

Three or four people helped me here. The rest of you pushed me farther away from The Church. Thank God y’all are not my only source of support within The Catholic Church or I would be hightailing it out of here. Thank you to the few who helped. As for the rest of you, I’m done. I won’t be responding to this thread again.

Well, since you didn’t respond to anything I posted, I’ll assume your accusations aren’t aimed at my posts. The Pope is still a sinful human being. He can make mistakes, and he doesn’t always act in ways that send the best message.

How can you analyze a trend without looking at the individual actions that comprise the trend? Accurate and scientific statistics require filters for accuracy, why wouldn’t an analysis of trends in the Roman Catholic Church have to factor in individual variables for accuracy?

Also, you’ve set up a double standard. You say that we can’t break down each episode, yet you are free to do so by citing a bunch of individual episodes, such as SSPX and preaching against homosexuality. What exactly are we left with to help you? You’ve asked the questions and then put limits on what answers can be given by us. I’m not sure how that’s fair to us. Then you respond with anger, accusing us of not reading anything you posted and then blaming us for pushing you away from the Church. I’m just not sure what you are expecting, but then again, I guess we won’t find out, as you’ve indicated that you are not going to respond further.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I have a friend who’s devout Orthodox, and we talk often. I love the Catholic Church, and I love people I’ve met within her, but I have a very, very hard time believing The Church believes what she claims to believe when I hear every day about the latest heterodoxy, or even unorthodoxy being spouted by bishops and priests and laity. I struggle with being in Communion with a church that seems to compromise truth at every turn and be far more concerned with politics than saving souls. Every time I hear something good that a bishop or priest has done, it’s quickly turned around and overturned by their next action where they apologize and prostrate to heterodox or outright wrong teachings or people.

I understand that Orthodoxy isn’t perfect either, but I have to admit that such things seem much more systemic in Catholicism. Yes I could find an orthodox Catholic ‘enclave’ in a solid parish, but that’s just ignoring the fact that this is going on elsewhere and with apparent full approval of Rome. I’ve tried to grin and bear it, but it’s getting more and more difficult.

I told my friend leaving Catholicism would feel like getting a divorce. I love The Church, I love the Holy Father, I believe firmly in her teachings, but for all the gates of hell not prevailing, it certainly seems that the evil one marches through Catholicism with abandon and even, sometimes, welcome. Is this a sign that Christ’s true church lies elsewhere? I’m frustrated, confused, angry, and unbelievably sorrowful, almost to tears. I don’t know what I want or am asking for, maybe I just needed to vent. Anyone have anything for me?

**This is “the grass is greener on the other side” syndrome and it’s dangerous to use as your deciding factor. Even good Eastern Orthodox folks will tell you this. **
I’ve known people who did just this and were sadly disappointed, for they found the EO side has similar problems as well, including accounts of homosexuality problems and liberalism in EO parishes.

Your choice should be about seeking Truth - and the sad story is that even Jesus said the True Church would have scandals and (unrepentant) sinners in it.

 

[Jeffgo]

I’m sorry to hear that the OP isn’t going to read this thread anymore:blush: I was really looking forward to trying to give him some advice. In fact, I actually just joined the Catholic Answers forum to do so (ok, I’m also probably going to take advantage of the Scrupulosity board as well, but still)… So, Rawb, I know that you said that you wouldn’t be reading this thread anymore, but if you change your mind…

 

[Hesychios]

Are you single? Watch out for Orthodox women. …

You should listen to yourself, that’s one of the nastiest uncalled for remarks I have ever seen at CAF.

 

[Monica4316]

I have a friend who’s devout Orthodox, and we talk often. I love the Catholic Church, and I love people I’ve met within her, but I have a very, very hard time believing The Church believes what she claims to believe when I hear every day about the latest heterodoxy, or even unorthodoxy being spouted by bishops and priests and laity. I struggle with being in Communion with a church that seems to compromise truth at every turn and be far more concerned with politics than saving souls. Every time I hear something good that a bishop or priest has done, it’s quickly turned around and overturned by their next action where they apologize and prostrate to heterodox or outright wrong teachings or people.

I understand that Orthodoxy isn’t perfect either, but I have to admit that such things seem much more systemic in Catholicism. Yes I could find an orthodox Catholic ‘enclave’ in a solid parish, but that’s just ignoring the fact that this is going on elsewhere and with apparent full approval of Rome. I’ve tried to grin and bear it, but it’s getting more and more difficult.

I told my friend leaving Catholicism would feel like getting a divorce. I love The Church, I love the Holy Father, I believe firmly in her teachings, but for all the gates of hell not prevailing, it certainly seems that the evil one marches through Catholicism with abandon and even, sometimes, welcome. Is this a sign that Christ’s true church lies elsewhere? I’m frustrated, confused, angry, and unbelievably sorrowful, almost to tears. I don’t know what I want or am asking for, maybe I just needed to vent. Anyone have anything for me?

I know how you feel… but I think in a way this makes sense, i mean the devil would attack the truth more, wouldn’t he? (Orthodoxy is true too but if Catholicism has the fulness of truth then the devil would focus more on that)

btw in the early Church, most of the East (including Bishops) was in heresy, and it was the Pope who was orthodox. In fact if it wasn’t for the Pope, the iconoclast heresy might have won and the Orthodox (and Eastern Catholic) churches wouldn’t have the beautiful icons they do today.

 

[josephdaniel29]

Are you single? Watch out for Orthodox women. Some of them have the same attitude to marriage as a tennis player to serving.

This surely is one of the nastiest things I’ve ever heard on CAF. And what’s even more shameful is how many of your fellow Catholics have looked at this post without a single word of condemnation. You should all be ashamed of yourselves.

 

[Jeffgo]

And what’s even more shameful is how many of your fellow Catholics have looked at this post without a single word of condemnation.

Yeah, now that you mention it, I do feel rather dissapointed with myself for not raising an objection to that, especially considering the fact that I’ve met a good number of truly wonderful women who are Orthodox.

 

[dswearin]

And what’s even more shameful is how many of your fellow Catholics have looked at this post without a single word of condemnation. You should all be ashamed of yourselves.

It’s not my job to defend orthodoxy. I was staying on topic and responding only to the OP and his issues. Lob your accusations at the one who made the comment alone.

Edited to be more charitable

 

[josephdaniel29]

It’s not my job to defend orthodoxy. I was staying on topic and responding only to the OP and his issues. Lob your accusations at the one who made the comment alone.

It’s not about defending Orthodoxy, it’s about basic charity and decency, things I thought Catholics would stand for. Apparently not.

Edited to be more charitable

Why worry about charity now?

 

[dswearin]

It’s not about defending Orthodoxy, it’s about basic charity and decency, things I thought Catholics would stand for. Apparently not.

Why worry about charity now?

Because what I originally posted was not as kind…And if you’re so charitable, why are YOU lobbing uncharitable generalizations around about Catholics? Like I said, I was trying to stay on point, not hijack the thread because of someone’s pointless comment. His comment, while offensive, could be made about any Christian group (I’ve seen examples from Catholics and Protestants). He said some, not all. Instead of condemning him, why didn’t YOU act charitable and explain to him why most Orthodox women aren’t like his description? Why didn’t YOU act charitable and refrain from shaming every Catholic on this thread for not condemning him?

 

[dswearin]

What does “QFT” stand for?

 

[dswearin]

I agree that the comment was very offensive, and your post identified the issue and explained why the poster’s comment was unfounded. My issue was with being shamed because I stayed on topic with the OP. There was another Orthodox poster who responded to the comment without condemning everyone else. The poster should retract it or at least explain the personal experiences that brought him to that conclusion.

 

[josephdaniel29]

Because what I originally posted was not as kind…And if you’re so charitable, why are YOU lobbing uncharitable generalizations around about Catholics? Like I said, I was trying to stay on point, not hijack the thread because of someone’s pointless comment. His comment, while offensive, could be made about any Christian group (I’ve seen examples from Catholics and Protestants). He said some, not all. Instead of condemning him, why didn’t YOU act charitable and explain to him why most Orthodox women aren’t like his description? Why didn’t YOU act charitable and refrain from shaming every Catholic on this thread for not condemning him?

Where did I claim that I was a paragon of charity? I can assure you if someone made such an offensive statement about Catholic priests for example, I wouldn’t hesitate to call them out on it. I am genuinely shocked that the post has been on the board from three days and no one had condemned it yet.

I spent many years defending Catholics on nasty Protestant forums from comments such as this. I like it here on CAF because for the most part Catholics are different. I hope that doesn’t change.

In Christ
Joe

 

[dswearin]

Where did I claim that I was a paragon of charity? I can assure you if someone made such an offensive statement about Catholic priests for example, I wouldn’t hesitate to call them out on it. I am genuinely shocked that the post has been on the board from three days and no one had condemned it yet.

I spent many years defending Catholics on nasty Protestant forums from comments such as this. I like it here on CAF because for the most part Catholics are different. I hope that doesn’t change.

In Christ
Joe

You insinuated that I was not really concerned with charity. I merely pointed out that you yourself were acting in the same manner as your insinuations by throwing out unwarranted generalizations. I haven’t broadened this spat to other Orthodox, as you have broadened it to other Catholics.

Also, I don’t see how your failure to react appropriately instead of condemning everyone in this thread makes the Catholics here the same as in other forums. Yeah, I guess you’re right in that we should have responded to his comment. It wasn’t the first thought in my mind. I was more concerned with the OP’s problems. I will also agree that my first thought when reading the poster’s comments should have been to respond with correction. That still does not warrant you shaming everyone instead of just dealing with the poster’s comment. I guess I just get a little defensive when someone points a finger at me and says, “Shame on you!”

EDIT: Regardless, the OP is not responding to any further posts, so there is no point in continuing this. I will not post further.