Tempted to leave the Church...

[tawny]

As one who wasted over 30 years outside the church I would have to tell you that that is a terrible idea. I urge you to prayerfully rethink in the context of the following information.
My Testimony
It’s NOT in the Bible, okay?
Does the Bible teach that everything that we believe and practice has to be found in its pages? That would be because the fundamental doctrine of Sola Scriptura is nowhere to be found in the Word of God. Only in the context of Sacred Tradition and the well informed (over 2,000 years worth) Catholic Church does any true interpretation take place. Essentially, you need to decide if you are willing to settle for something less than the fullness of truth. I am not , that’s for sure. Jesus said that He is the truth, and the fullness of truth can only bring us closer to Him.
It seems to me that you are only reading Pope Francis in news reports instead of reading him ver batim and in context. Look over in Apologetics where I hang out. We constantly examine papal writings and news reports and you soon see a difference…and be better informed.

You need to pay careful attention at Mass. Why do you think the consecration plainly says***?***
***Take this, all of you, and drink from it,
for this is the chalice of my Blood,
the Blood of the new and eternal covenant,
which will be poured out for you and for many
for the forgiveness of sins.
Do this in memory of me.

***“For many” (pro multis in Latin) is precisely what the church and Pope Francis teaches and has always taught. The blood of Christ was shed for all mankind…but not all will receive it, and so not all will be saved.
(Cont’d)

Very well stated. Walking away from the Catholic Church; you walk away from the the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist. You walk away from receiving the Body, Blood Soul & Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ. This is the Core of our faith.

 

[MT1926]

I am beginning to miss my Protestant upbringing, and the simplicity of seeking God through prayer and Holy Scripture, and not having to worry about what a pope will say or what odd things my church might teach that will violate my conscience. I also remember the comfort of being able to rest in God’s mercy and repent and grow in holiness out of a love for God and not out of fear of committing mortal sin and suffering His wrath.

I am new here and just starting to tackle the deep stuff in the Catholic faith. So I am not going to try and convince you on your other points.

This point however, really spoke to me. I don’t want to jump to any conclusions or point any fingers at you, so I would like to tell you how your statement relates to me.

I could have seen myself easily being at the same point as you are now. Just to tell you a little about myself. I am a self employed Chiropractor, run my own business, own my building which I rebuilt on my own, own a farm, a custom cabinet shop…I think you can see where I am going with this. Basically I am use to being in charge. Nothing burns me more than someone telling me I can’t do this or that.

Please don’t take offense to this but when I read this statement I saw a man that is use to being in charge of his faith. I feel your pain, nothing is harder for me than to have to place my trust in someone else. Like you said when it is just you and God it is simple and comfortable. Well if you are anything like me you know deep down that it can’t be that simple. The more I study the Bible the more I see God’s genius, it just amazes me sometimes how much he has foreseen and foretold. There is no way the Bible could be a work of man.

With all of our technology and intelligence in this day and age we still can’t translate the directions from Chinese to English without a boat load of mistakes. How can we possible believe the Word of an omniscient God would be easy to interpret without the help of interpretations being handed down since the beginning. Now I am not using this as an argument to say the Catholic church is correct. All I am saying is with all the evidence how can someone prove the Catholic churches interpretations are wrong. But more importantly if she is wrong how can we ever prove someone elses interpretations are correct.

On a side note, the way I was able to get over my need to be in charge of my Faith was by becoming more involved in my parish. It gave me a better sense of worth, as a leader in my church community and not just a follower.

God Bless

 

[MaryT777]

Very well stated. Walking away from the Catholic Church; you walk away from the the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist. You walk away from receiving the Body, Blood Soul & Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ. This is the Core of our faith.

I wonder where the OP would go next? You would encounter the same problems; many denominations subscribing to Sola Scriptura, Bible alone but yet many variations regarding faith and morals as to what this Bible teaches.

I share because I once thought of leaving the Church only to find the Church I was studying was in various synods all under the label of one denomination teaching grossly different teachings. Some accepting women Pastors, abortion as acceptable, homosexual marriage is Ok while the most conservative felt the Pope was the AntiChrist, had moral values more similar to the Catholic Church and were liturgically more similar to the Catholic Church but with some “hangovers” from the 16th century in the midst., Celebrating Reformation with gusto and their freedom from the false teachings such as works righteousness as a way to heaven, and a core teaching that they were developed to “fix” Rome yet turned a blind eye to those in the same denom teachings grossly different teachings.

I actually believe to look around and see what’s out there was the best thing I ever did.
I came running back “home to Rome”. After all, the church is the pillar and foundation of truth.

Although I never confirmed in another church which consisted of 10 Basics of the Faith classes and then I could have confirmed, I consider myself a revert.

You noted you don’t 'have a lot of time on your hands but I seriously would never leave the Church for another faith body without studying what it teaches.

Mary.

 

[grannymh]

I just find it hard to believe in Catholicism anymore.

skip) due to character count.

I think the main ones are regarding salvation. Here are some examples:

1. "Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:6

skip due to character count.

1. “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!” Galatians 1:8

skip due to character count

Also I have heard apologists try to brand Catholicism as having “not changed” over the course of 2000 years, being steadfast in the divine guidance of the Holy Spirit. In reality the Church has changed its position on slavery among other things throughout history, usually catering to the popular view of the time. There are so many contradictions in Church teaching over the years in history, and all apologetics surrounding these contradictions amounts to relying on technicalities of syntax or the meaning of “ex-cathedra.” It all sounds so bogus.

There is also a growing sentiment among Catholics, much of which comes from the clergy, that it really doesn’t matter what you believe so long as you do good and you will be saved. If that is the case, I find very little reason to remain a Catholic.

skip due to character count.

If the Church claims that her teachings are led by the Holy Spirit then I would expect something more solid than that. For example, if slavery were truly wrong, then the Holy Spirit would have always taught the Church that it were wrong. It would not have taught something different at the time it were in practice. It sounds to me like the abolitionists were more in tune with the HS than the Church was at the time.

“There is also a growing sentiment among Catholics, much of which comes from the clergy, that it really doesn’t matter what you believe so long as you do good and you will be saved.”
I will answer this statement first since there are very few people who know what you are referring to. I let my thread on the subject “Emerging Christianity” die because people did not know what it is. In addition, there is the difficulty recognizing modern Arianism.

From what I have seen, “Emerging Christianity” includes people and some clergy who no longer accept the reality of Adam and Original Sin. According to “modern” thinking, this old-time teaching needs to be updated to the status of fables. Once Devine Revelation has been removed from the first three chapters of Genesis, then it is open season on the rest of those annoying Catholic teachings. Even the full divinity of Jesus can be questioned. (modern Arianism)

This campaign (aka progressive Christianity) has been around for a long time. I first heard about it when it was called the Big Tent. In the opening paragraphs of Humani Generis, 1950, Pius XII identifies this campaign as detrimental not only to the Catholic teaching but also detrimental to individuals.

Jesus Christ did warn us about wolves in sheep’s clothing. This warning was followed by the promise of the Holy Spirit, chapter 14, Gospel of John.

When it comes to technicalities of syntax or the meaning of “ex-cathedra”, unfortunately very few people can explain the protocol of the visible Catholic Church on earth. When I landed on CAF, there were only three people posting on the Catholic protocol for determining doctrines which does include “ex cathedra”. Hopefully, recent members of CAF have taken the time to search out the ways the Catholic Church operates. We simply have to accept the fact that Catholics, including high ranking clergy, exercise free speech. That is why it is so necessary to get to the nitty-gritty of the Catholic Church.

I really doubt that there is actually a properly defined point of Divine Revelation on slavery per se which has been properly declared, in a major ecumenical council, as a divine doctrine in the Catholic Deposit of Faith. What Jesus Christ declared is that we are to love our neighbor as our self. Everyone is free to commit sins against that command. Everyone is free to teach sins against that command. Everyone is free to obey Jesus.

Personally, I rarely read media reports about what Pope Francis said. There is too much confusion about Catholic context. When I do read something, I keep in mind that the Pope is Catholic and speaks in a Catholic context. Apparently, some, not all, Catholics have not learned Catholic context.

My handicap is that I learned Catholic doctrines without the benefit of Scripture. Thus, when someone gives me a one-line quote, I have to read context above and below and sometimes the entire chapter in order to understand what is being said.

For example. this line

1. “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!” Galatians 1:8"

Verses 6-9 make it obvious that this curse does not refer to people seeking God as expressed in CCC 1260. Galatians 1:1 and following refer to the mission of the apostles given by Jesus Christ (CCC 857) Verse 6 can even refer back to the concept of wolves in sheep’s clothing.

About this “church changing” bit. Because, some, not all, people have no clue as to how the Catholic Church operates under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, there is the misunderstanding regarding free speech of humans as being Divine Revelation. Interestingly, on the other hand, there is the group trying to turn Divine Revelation into human free speech. Check out Galatians 1:10-12.

Obviously, the above is general. If you wish, I may be able to help you with something specific.

If I skipped some of your key points, please let us address them in a separate post.

 

[SJacob7]

1. “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!” Galatians 1:8
2. “But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.”

I would like to add my concern with the above statement from CCC 841. It states that Muslims and Catholics ‘adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind’.

The judge on the last day is Jesus the Son. As stated in Acts 10:42 (NABRE)

He commissioned us to preach to the people and testify that he is the one appointed by God as judge of the living and the dead.

God appointed Jesus to judge the living and the dead. Muslims don’t believe in the deity of Jesus, and wouldn’t believe that He will be our judge on the last day. So we DON’T both believe in the one that will judge.

John 3:36

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him.

Paragraph 841 from the CCC just isn’t right!

 

[Iron_Donkey]

What priest could possibly have the time to meet with me in their busy schedules?

That’s what their schedules are for, in part. You wouldn’t say that you don’t want to see a doctor if you’re not feeling well because doctors are too busy curing people, right?

 

[guanophore]

Probably not outright, I am already married to a practicing Catholic. But I would probably go to mass and just not receive communion ever again.

I just find it hard to believe in Catholicism anymore.
I remember converting to the Catholic faith five years ago. I remember how awesome I thought it was that the Catholic Church came from Jesus and the apostles. I remember thinking about how the scripture made so much sense in light of tradition. I don’t know now how I ever came to that conclusion.

Faith is like muscles. If you don’t exercise it, atrophy occurs. If faith is not growing, it is getting flabby, weak, and will eventually give out all together.

I remember struggling with certain things and just putting them in the back of my mind. Now they are coming back to haunt me.

This is a sign that it is time to grow in your faith.

I think the main ones are regarding salvation. Here are some examples:

1. "Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:6
2. “The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all!” - Pope Francis
   (not to mention that the New Testament says that without faith it is impossible to please God, whereas Pope Francis says that they need merely to do good works and follow their consciences.)

Not sure what you see as the problem here.

1. “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!” Galatians 1:8
2. “But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.”

Not sure what the problem is here either.

Are you one of those people that thinks in black and white, and don’t think both things can be true?

Please do not interpret this to mean that I am prejudiced and have a problem with the idea of other religions being saved... my problem is one of conscience because what Jesus and his apostles teach strongly differ from these teachings.

Not sure what you mean here. You seem to see a contradiciton or a “strongly differ” that I don’t.

Also I have heard apologists try to brand Catholicism as having “not changed” over the course of 2000 years, being steadfast in the divine guidance of the Holy Spirit. In reality the Church has changed its position on slavery among other things throughout history, usually catering to the popular view of the time.

I think this statement just reflects a lack of understanding about the Catholic faith. It is the doctrine that does not change. Church practices change often.

Matters like slavery that are not part of the doctrine of Christ have gone through many changes throughout history, but rarely are any of those changes related to “the popular view at the time”. On the contrary, I think you will find that the Church resists changes in pressure from modernism more than any other institution. You will find more people complain that the church does not change fast enough!

There are so many contradictions in Church teaching over the years in history, and all apologetics surrounding these contradictions amounts to relying on technicalities of syntax or the meaning of “ex-cathedra.” It all sounds so bogus.

Church teaching comes from Christ. How we undersatnd and apply those teachings over time “develops” as we develop as human beings and cultures. The fact is that the faith is One, and cannot contradict itself. It comes from God, who is One, and there are no contradicdtions in Him. Anything else that seems to be contradiciton is a human problem.

 

[guanophore]

There is also a growing sentiment among Catholics, much of which comes from the clergy, that it really doesn’t matter what you believe so long as you do good and you will be saved. If that is the case, I find very little reason to remain a Catholic.

I agree. This is not Catholic teaching, and is not the faith of the Apostles. I would not want to remain Catholic either if this were the case. Be careful not to judge the One Faith by those who have fallen away from it.

I think this sentiment is another challenge for you to grow in your faith. Indiffrentism is a sin.

Aside from the reasons I have stated above, I am beginning to miss my Protestant upbringing, and the simplicity of seeking God through prayer and Holy Scripture, and not having to worry about what a pope will say or what odd things my church might teach that will violate my conscience.

There is no reason that you should stop praying and seeking God through Holy Scripture. If you are missing this, then it is a lack of spiritual discipline on your part. Catholics are encouraged to pray and study Scripture.

Nothing to Pope says on a day to day basis need violate your conscience. He has opinions like everyone else. Pray for him, he needs our prayers.

What the Church might teach will come from Jesus, through the Holy Spirit. If it violates your conscience then your concience needs a cleansing!

 I also remember the comfort of being able to rest in God's mercy and repent and grow in holiness out of a love for God and not out of fear of committing mortal sin and suffering His wrath.

Yes. This is an inner attitude that needs to be fostered and maintained. It has nothing to do with what other people are doing or saying, but only with the quality of our relationship with God. It sounds like yours might need some renewal, as you have fallen away from your first love.

I know I have posted on this topic before but I still am not entirely satisfied with the answers. People have responded in my previous posts that the Church is a “growing organism” and that revelation is somehow “progressive” but couldn’t that be the situation with Protestants as well?

I think this is a mischaracterization. The human aspect of the Church is in growth, but the divine is not. Jesus is her Head, and she is ensouled by the Holy Spirit. The Church, like Christ, is incarnational. She has a human and a divine nature. Her divine nature is immutable.

It is not so much the revelation that is progressive as those of us receiving it are in progress. The Church teaches that Jesus is the full and final public revelation by God of Himself to humankind. The once and for all divine deposit of faith was made to the Church, and was closed at the death of the last Apostle. We are not at liberty to add or subtract from that deposit of faith.

If the Church claims that her teachings are led by the Holy Spirit then I would expect something more solid than that. For example, if slavery were truly wrong, then the Holy Spirit would have always taught the Church that it were wrong. It would not have taught something different at the time it were in practice. It sounds to me like the abolitionists were more in tune with the HS than the Church was at the time.

You seem to be putting your standards upon God. God teaches Truths to humanity at the rate we are able to understand and accept them. The HS did make it clear that slavery is wrong. The HS was moving through the abolitionists to bring about changes in our culture and society.

God wants to move through you, too, to bring the Gospel to the world. What are you willing to do in answer to His call?

 

[guanophore]

Yes, but not Roman Catholicism - there are many catholic churches which include the orthodox churches. The Roman church does not have a monopoly on salvation.

Catholicism is not “Roman”.

Neither does the Church “claim to have a monopoly on salvation”.

No one comes to the Father except through Christ, and no one comes through Christ without being a member of His One Body, the Church.

God can safe whoever He wants, however He likes. He has chosen to save people through Christ and His Church. It is His privilege to make a monopoly any way He likes.

 

[guanophore]

There are denominations who believe in graces of baptism, such as the Lutherans. These get their doctrines from the scriptures, as opposed to church teaching, which evidently is subject to change.

This is not accurate, CSG. What the Lutherans beleive about the Sacraments of Baptism and Eucharist are part of Sacred Tradition. They understand the Scriptures this way because they are reading them through the lens of what the Apostles believed and taught. Five of the seven did get lost, though…

Church teaching is not subject to change. Our understanding of it is.

You can argue on about personal interpretation, but can you really argue that the CC has a better handle on interpreting scripture than anyone else? And if so then what do you have to show for it?

Yes, we can argue that.

I think you lost me with the “little”. Perhaps you are referring to people such as yourself, who rather than taking up the commend of God to preach the Gospel and build up the Church, decide to bail out?

What do you have to show for your faith? How have you lived out the Scriptures? Is this thread a demonstration of how you live your faith?

Lutherans around here have never denied the need for Tradition and how it’s a valuable lens on how to read Scripture. In fact, many of the confessional Lutherans on CAF are more ‘catholic’ in worldview than many Catholics.

Yes. Confessional Lutherans, it turns out, are more Catholic in many ways than the majority of American nominal Catholics.

 

[Jon_Mallory]

Probably not outright, I am already married to a practicing Catholic. But I would probably go to mass and just not receive communion ever again.

I just find it hard to believe in Catholicism anymore.
I remember converting to the Catholic faith five years ago. I remember how awesome I thought it was that the Catholic Church came from Jesus and the apostles. I remember thinking about how the scripture made so much sense in light of tradition. I don’t know now how I ever came to that conclusion. I remember struggling with certain things and just putting them in the back of my mind. Now they are coming back to haunt me.

I think the main ones are regarding salvation. Here are some examples:

1. "Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:6
2. “The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all!” - Pope Francis
   (not to mention that the New Testament says that without faith it is impossible to please God, whereas Pope Francis says that they need merely to do good works and follow their consciences.)
3. “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!” Galatians 1:8
4. “But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.”

The list goes on… I don’t have time to post them all here right now.
Please do not interpret this to mean that I am prejudiced and have a problem with the idea of other religions being saved… my problem is one of conscience because what Jesus and his apostles teach strongly differ from these teachings.

Also I have heard apologists try to brand Catholicism as having “not changed” over the course of 2000 years, being steadfast in the divine guidance of the Holy Spirit. In reality the Church has changed its position on slavery among other things throughout history, usually catering to the popular view of the time. There are so many contradictions in Church teaching over the years in history, and all apologetics surrounding these contradictions amounts to relying on technicalities of syntax or the meaning of “ex-cathedra.” It all sounds so bogus.

There is also a growing sentiment among Catholics, much of which comes from the clergy, that it really doesn’t matter what you believe so long as you do good and you will be saved. If that is the case, I find very little reason to remain a Catholic. Aside from the reasons I have stated above, I am beginning to miss my Protestant upbringing, and the simplicity of seeking God through prayer and Holy Scripture, and not having to worry about what a pope will say or what odd things my church might teach that will violate my conscience. I also remember the comfort of being able to rest in God’s mercy and repent and grow in holiness out of a love for God and not out of fear of committing mortal sin and suffering His wrath.

I know I have posted on this topic before but I still am not entirely satisfied with the answers. People have responded in my previous posts that the Church is a “growing organism” and that revelation is somehow “progressive” but couldn’t that be the situation with Protestants as well? If the Church claims that her teachings are led by the Holy Spirit then I would expect something more solid than that. For example, if slavery were truly wrong, then the Holy Spirit would have always taught the Church that it were wrong. It would not have taught something different at the time it were in practice. It sounds to me like the abolitionists were more in tune with the HS than the Church was at the time.

Your thoughts echo mine almost verbatim. I too am disturbed when I encounter pluralistic thinking in the Catholic Church. People misinterpret and do abuse to Cardinal Henry Newman who coined the phrase “development of doctrine” when they see such progression as adding new doctrines. Here is a quote from Bishop Athanasius Schneider that is very illuminating on the subject:

 "The Pope is surely not the measure of tradition, but on the contrary. We must always bear in mind the following dogmatic teaching of the First Vatican Council: The office of the successors of Peter does not consist in making known some new doctrine, but in guarding and faithfully expounding the deposit of faith transmitted by the apostles (cf. Constitutio dogmatica Pastor aeternus, cap. 4).

In fulfilling one of his most important tasks, the Pope has to strive so that “the whole flock of Christ might be kept away from the poisonous food of error” (First Vatican Council, ibd.). The following expression which was in use since the first centuries of the Church, is one of the most striking definitions of the Papal office, and has to be in some sense a second nature of every Pope: “Faithfully adhering to the tradition received from the beginning of the Christian faith” (First Vatican Council, ibd.)."

Whatever concerns you have concerning Pope Francis, be assured that he does not represent the sum total of the tradition.
Again, I can't tell you enough how much your struggles resemble mine. I too was born and reared in Protestantism. People at church were friendly and always wanted to get to know me. Going to Mass feels more like a job. You go in and you go out. No one wants to socialize and get to know you. No one cares. Everybody just goes through the motions and the priest seems very distant.

 

[grannymh]

Church teaching is not subject to change. Our understanding of it is.

Regarding “Church teaching is not subject to change. Our understanding of it is.”

The more accurate terminology is found in CCC 66.
** CCC 66 **“The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries.

Sadly, there are some Catholics who are pushing that the understanding of some doctrines has significantly changed to the point that a knowledgeable Catholic recognizes that what is actually being pushed is a direct change of Divine Revelation.

As Jesus warned – there are plenty of wolves in sheep’s clothing.

Mathew 7: 15. 15“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves."

 

[Thorolfr]

For example, if slavery were truly wrong, then the Holy Spirit would have always taught the Church that it were wrong. It would not have taught something different at the time it were in practice. It sounds to me like the abolitionists were more in tune with the HS than the Church was at the time.

Because both the Old and New Testament bascially condone slavery, this is a difficult issue for me as a Protestant, too, and it sometimes makes me doubt my faith as a Christian.

 

[grannymh]

Because both the Old and New Testament bascially condone slavery, this is a difficult issue for me as a Protestant, too, and it sometimes makes me doubt my faith as a Christian.

Regarding the Catholic Church. Unfortunately very few people understand the protocol of the visible Catholic Church on planet earth when it comes to the difference between free speech actions and Divine Revelation. I have no clue why some people have trouble with the truth that not every Bible verse automatically becomes a Catholic doctrine. Some Bible verses are simply historical as to what was happening on earth, right and wrong.

When I landed on CAF, there were only three people posting on Catholic protocol for determining doctrines. Hopefully, recent members of CAF have taken the time to search out the ways the Catholic Church operates according to chapter 14, Gospel of John. We simply have to accept the fact that not every person in the Bible and not every Catholic are automatically saints on earth. That is why it is so necessary to get to the nitty-gritty of the Catholic Church.

What Jesus Christ declared is that we are to love our neighbor as our self. Everyone is free to commit sins against that command. Everyone is free to obey Jesus. That should be sufficient.

 

[Thorolfr]

Regarding the Catholic Church. Unfortunately very few people understand the protocol of the visible Catholic Church on planet earth when it comes to the difference between free speech actions and Divine Revelation. I have no clue why some people have trouble with the truth that not every Bible verse automatically becomes a Catholic doctrine. Some Bible verses are simply historical as to what was happening on earth, right and wrong.

When I landed on CAF, there were only three people posting on Catholic protocol for determining doctrines. Hopefully, recent members of CAF have taken the time to search out the ways the Catholic Church operates according to chapter 14, Gospel of John. We simply have to accept the fact that not every person in the Bible and not every Catholic are automatically saints on earth. That is why it is so necessary to get to the nitty-gritty of the Catholic Church.

What Jesus Christ declared is that we are to love our neighbor as our self. Everyone is free to commit sins against that command. Everyone is free to obey Jesus. That should be sufficient.

What the Bible says about slavery is not just “history” but is often prescriptive. For example, it says in Leviticus 25:44 ( which was supposedly written by Moses):

44 As for the male and female slaves whom you may have, it is from the nations around you that you may acquire male and female slaves. 45 You may also acquire them from among the aliens residing with you, and from their families that are with you, who have been born in your land; and they may be your property. 46 You may keep them as a possession for your children after you, for them to inherit as property.

It is not a description of what people did, but is supposedly permission from God to own slaves and pass then on as property to your children as an inheritance.

Or how about Colossians 3:22 (supposedly written by Paul):

Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything, not only while being watched and in order to please them, but wholeheartedly, fearing the Lord

 

[grannymh]

What the Bible says about slavery is not just “history” but is often prescriptive. For example, it says in Leviticus 25:44 ( which was supposedly written by Moses):

It is not a description of what people did, but is supposedly permission from God to own slaves and pass then on as property to your children as an inheritance.

Or how about Colossians 3:22 (supposedly written by Paul):

Personally, I like
Matthew 22: 34-40
Mark 12: 28-34
Luke 10: 25-28
John 13: 34-35
John 15: 12

 

[Church_Militant]

Nobody

deserves heaven. Remember, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23Can you show me anywhere that the church disagrees with that verse? No, you cannot and if you had read the links I gave you to How Is A Catholic Saved? and Who REALLY Preaches “A Different Gospel”? you would be better able to see that for yourself. There is no guarantee that anyone, Catholic or non will be saved and the majority of n-Cs preach a salvation system that clearly oversimplifies the Gospel that is found in the New Testament. Have you read the New Testament?

What priest could possibly have the time to meet with me in their busy schedules?

Badly faulty assumption. Even in Japan he will make time for counseling you because that is what priests do. You need to stop making uninformed assumptions about the church and everyone else.

So you say that Protestants are most likely going to heaven, but as a Catholic I need to secure my salvation? That doesn’t make any sense.

You badly need to read my links above and compare it to the New Testament and see if what n-Cs have taught you aligns with what the New Testament actually says in context. Make the investment of time to read it for yourself and I will wager that you too will discover, as I did, that the Biblical plan of salvation is the same Gospel that the Catholic Church has always preached and not the one that most n-C religions offer.

like your testimony!

Thanks, it’s all the result of many people praying for me and the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

 

[AnneElizabeth]

Very well stated. Walking away from the Catholic Church; you walk away from the the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist. You walk away from receiving the Body, Blood Soul & Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ. This is the Core of our faith.

I don’t mean any offense, nor do I wish to steal the Op’s thread, but I have always wondered why, if actual physical communion is so important then why is there such a thing called spiritual communion… and what is the difference?

Can God not give spiritual communion to those who ask and do not receive physically ? What about those who cannot eat gluten? Is their spiritual communion less than a person who is actually partaking in Holy Communion? What is the difference? And why is this such a big deal? If there is a difference, then why does the church teach the spiritual communion prayer? Can’t God give a spiritual communion or not?

 

[guanophore]

Your thoughts echo mine almost verbatim. I too am disturbed when I encounter pluralistic thinking in the Catholic Church.

I confess that I am also disturbed by it. All the things that bother the OP bother me too. I think this feeling of being provoked adn disturbed is the Holy Spirit calling us to stand up for the faith, and fight the indifferentism and slipping away from the foundation of the faith.

People misinterpret and do abuse to Cardinal Henry Newman who coined the phrase "development of doctrine" when they see such progression as adding new doctrines. Here is a quote from Bishop Athanasius Schneider that is very illuminating on the subject:

 "The Pope is surely not the measure of tradition, but on the contrary. We must always bear in mind the following dogmatic teaching of the First Vatican Council: The office of the successors of Peter does not consist in making known some new doctrine, but in guarding and faithfully expounding the deposit of faith transmitted by the apostles (cf. Constitutio dogmatica Pastor aeternus, cap. 4).

In fulfilling one of his most important tasks, the Pope has to strive so that “the whole flock of Christ might be kept away from the poisonous food of error” (First Vatican Council, ibd.). The following expression which was in use since the first centuries of the Church, is one of the most striking definitions of the Papal office, and has to be in some sense a second nature of every Pope: “Faithfully adhering to the tradition received from the beginning of the Christian faith” (First Vatican Council, ibd.)."

Whatever concerns you have concerning Pope Francis, be assured that he does not represent the sum total of the tradition.

 Again, I can't tell you enough how much your struggles resemble mine. I too was born and reared in Protestantism. People at church were friendly and always wanted to get to know me. Going to Mass feels more like a job. You go in and you go out. No one wants to socialize and get to know you. No one cares. Everybody just goes through the motions and the priest seems very distant.

Yes, this is a great travesty of Catholicism. We could learn a lot from our separated brethren about being more hospitable,building and maintaining community. The Church is built on relationships, and yet, our parishes do not foster these relationships as they ought. My parish does not even have a lobby in which to linger. The doors out of the sanctuary open out into the parking lot and the sidewalk, so there is no place inside to stand and visit. It is kind of a commentary on what you are describing above.

Those of us who have converted and reverted who know how different things can be need to find a way to bring about community in the ways we know it can happen.

 

[guanophore]

Regarding “Church teaching is not subject to change. Our understanding of it is.”

The more accurate terminology is found in CCC 66.
** CCC 66 **“The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries.

Sadly, there are some Catholics who are pushing that the understanding of some doctrines has significantly changed to the point that a knowledgeable Catholic recognizes that what is actually being pushed is a direct change of Divine Revelation.

As Jesus warned – there are plenty of wolves in sheep’s clothing.

Mathew 7: 15. 15“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves."

Thanks for that reference Granny. I think that is a much better statement. What I was thinking is the scriptural references like Luke 2:50

50But they did not understand the statement which He had made to them.

John 12:16
16These things His disciples did not understand at the first; but when Jesus was glorified, then they remembered that these things were written of Him, and that they had done these things to Him.

John 16:12 12"I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth;

The example was given of slavery, and I wonder if that is one issue that the whole culture was not able to bear. Eventually the Roman Empire collapsed, though slavery continued in different forms. America is successful in many ways because it was built through slavery. I am not justifying this, just saying that sometimes great good can come out of evil.