Tempted to leave the Church...

[Church_Militant]

It’s one thing to recommend penances for people. It’s another to say that you have to do a particular penance on a particular day, or else you will burn in hell for all eternity.

Which is your opinion (and ill informed I might add).
You completely forget the many times that the Bible speaks of the whole nation of faithful Israel being called to penance. Efficacious penance at that. Was that wrong too.take a close look at this. Scriptures About Penance

Again I point out that our society is so far gone that it is only the prayers and penances of God’s people that are holding back His judgement on the world. Is this wrong in your opinion?

More specious rhetoric from you? No one has said that anyone goes to hell for failing in fast and abstinence. It sounds to me that you just want excuses to return to your past forms of “Christianity Lite”.

Mark 2:23-27

Poor choice of scripture and you either ignore or are ignorant of the following verses Acts 20:7 and 1st Corinthians 16:1, 2.which indicates that the apostles (and early church) continued to meet on Sunday. If that was the mandated practice (since our Lord rose on the first day of the week then so all Christians should worship on that day of the week especially. Who are we to change that?.

 

[Church_Militant]

So you believe that the Jesus and the apostles of the gospels were all about indulgences and poring over canon law? Because I just don’t see that in the gospels…

Indulgences are quite scriptural. Look at the following scriptures and realize the explicit authority and mandate (of mercy) that Our Blessed lord Jesus Christ gave to His church.

You can argue and rationalize all you want but if you are a believer who accepts scripture as inspired and authoritative then your issues are with Christ and and not with the Catholic Church that He established.

---

Matthew 16:19
And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

Matthew 18:18
Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.

John 20: 21-23
[21] He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. [22] When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. [23] Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

***I know of no one who “pores over canon law” and so I don’t see a valid argument here.

 

[Church_Militant]

Ah yes, SPSE. I had been trying to get a chapter started in my city before life happened, along with a baby, that has slowed me down for the time being. Right now I support them financially but we still haven’t gotten our group together.

Keep working at it.

I can assure you, there are a huge number of Catholics in good standing with the Church who would tell you that what you are doing is wrong, that you shouldn’t be actually sharing the Catholic faith with non-Catholics, and that evangelizing just means being nice to people and buttering them up, making them feel good about themselves. And if you challenge them, there response will just be “Vatican II.”

And their opinion is no more valid than your own. Have you read the documents of Vatican II? Didn’t think so. They’re on the Vatican site. I pay attention to what the church actually says and not the various opinions that drift around. I go to the source and that has never failed me yet.

It’s pretty naive to sit around and assume that others are right with God or to “get saved” and then assume (wrongly) that we now have the fullness of truth just because we have a Bible in hand. 500 years of Protestantism certainly hasn’t proved that to be either true or feasible. All it really has done is grossly divide and cripple Christianity and cause errors to proliferate like popcorn popping.

If you know that evangelism is the right thing to do, then you seek to find ways in which to share that faith with others and you spend your life exploring that fullness of truth that is found only in the church that Christ Himself established.

 

[exnihilo]

So you believe that the Jesus and the apostles of the gospels were all about indulgences and poring over canon law? Because I just don’t see that in the gospels…

There is a lot we don’t see in the Gospels if by that you mean the books. The Gospels aren’t an exhaustive explanation of the Faith. If they were we wouldn’t have been given the Epistles. The Epistles are often more detailed explanations of how to live the Faith. This is all Canon Law is. Indulgences are just detailed examples of meritorious works.

Finally, I think one of the number one struggle I have is with my protestant friends and relatives. I know I have repeated this many times on these forums. My brother is an evangelical Christian, currently in a seminary, who is probably the holiest person I have ever known. He has gone on multiple mission trips overseas where he helped to build wells to bring clean water to people. He has helped multiple homeless people, literally bringing them into his home, to the point where he was taken advantage of financially, etc. multiple times because of his willingness to help the poor. In college we lived in the same house; every moment he wasn’t hitting the books, he was in his Bible. He actually converted a number of people to faith in Christ. He was gracious to everyone around him. When I was converting to Catholicism, he frequently challenged me on topics related to faith. He still challenges me because of my devotion to Mary (which I absolutely won’t give up… I believe my devotion to her is the only reason why I was able to overcome a sinful addiction and I believe that as soon as I stop praying to her, I will be right back in that spiral. I love her and can’t thank her enough for helping me through that trial and I would not abandon her). The thing is, it is hard for me to understand from a Catholic perspective how Zach could live such a holy life when he does not have the sacraments. He has never been to confession, he has never received the Body and Blood of Christ… but to see the way his life changed in high school when he found God… you would understand where I am coming from. It was night and day. I remember thinking, who is this guy and where is my brother? This is not the same guy I grew up with.

Earlier you were complaining about the statement from Mother Teresa. But here you are basically affirming it. You are affirming it in so far as it meant God can come to us in whatever state we find ourselves. You are affirming it in so far as it meant that there can be elements of truth outside the Catholic Faith and that this truth is in reality a part of the Catholic Faith.

 

[Church_Militant]

They do.

Just make an appointment. Happens all the time.

And as I suggested above - also call the Apologist line at Catholic Answers.

Fr Serpa is available 9-5 M-F at CA’s number.

And they simply do not know what they are talking about…

Such is* contrary*

to the Teaching of the Church – *including *the last Council (Vatican II).

Just cause some do not know their Faith or are confused…that is not the measure of what the Faith Teaches…but only of the confusion of particular persons.

Heck - you can go on the street and ask history questions about the US of people and they will give wrong answers…or about any number of topics…Lord ain’t that the truth.

OK, I think what I need to do is go back and read through the gospels, the Acts of the apostles, and the letters to the churches and take notes, and write down anything that sticks out to me as being problematic. Periodically I will go through these notes and then post here on the forums as well as do research in Catholic Answers articles to see what has to be said about these matters.

Excellent idea and please feel free to PM me on here if you hit a rock or something.

The problem is, over the past five years I have run across verses and also run across quotes by popes, stuff from encyclicals and elsewhere that has bothered me, but I would push it to the back of my mind because I didn’t want it to challenge my Catholic faith. Because of that, they are swimming around in my mind but it is hard to recall the exact location of the verses, the exact encyclicals, etc. I need to keep my eye out for these and nab them when I find them.

Context is everything my friend. I have found that it always clarifies things for me.

Finally, I think one of the number one struggle I have is with my protestant friends and relatives. I know I have repeated this many times on these forums. My brother is an evangelical Christian, currently in a seminary, who is probably the holiest person I have ever known. He has gone on multiple mission trips overseas where he helped to build wells to bring clean water to people. He has helped multiple homeless people, literally bringing them into his home, to the point where he was taken advantage of financially, etc. multiple times because of his willingness to help the poor. In college we lived in the same house; every moment he wasn’t hitting the books, he was in his Bible. He actually converted a number of people to faith in Christ. He was gracious to everyone around him. When I was converting to Catholicism, he frequently challenged me on topics related to faith. He still challenges me because of my devotion to Mary (which I absolutely

won’t give up… I believe my devotion to her is the only reason why I was able to overcome a sinful addiction and I believe that as soon as I stop praying to her, I will be right back in that spiral. I love her and can’t thank her enough for helping me through that trial and I would not abandon her). The thing is, it is hard for me to understand from a Catholic perspective how Zach could live such a holy life when he does not have the sacraments. He has never been to confession, he has never received the Body and Blood of Christ… but to see the way his life changed in high school when he found God… you would understand where I am coming from. It was night and day. I remember thinking, who is this guy and where is my brother? This is not the same guy I grew up with.

God bless you guys, thank you for your involvement here.Then we have something in common because the Blessed Virgin was largely responsible for my own reversion to the Catholic faith and you can see from My Testimony

Just realize that Zach is still a work in progress by God and God has obviously given him much grace to be where he is today. Remember though that Jesus is the truth and to know Him we need always be seeking the fullness of His truth.

CompSciGuy, what I am about to tell you I am saying to myself as well - humble yourself and lay your ego/pride aside.

You have been given excellent advice on here by Church Militant and Della.

Della, you don’t have to be a former Evangelical to have the mindset you wrote about:

Traditional Catholics, who go to (even who are former members because it is a very hard mindset to shake once it is acquired) chapels that are not in communion with the Church (SSPX/sedevacantists), do the same thing.

Yeah but we still love you dear friend and we are glad that you are here with us.

I never thought I’d ever say this on CAF, but many Catholics here put me to shame, and I thank you for that.

See Luke 17:10 about that. We are all just converted sinners and following Our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[7_Sorrows]

I’ve got a cousin who is an evangelical Christian. She’s also a Baptist missionary in one of the countries in central America like Guatemala or Honduras, where she and other Protestant missionaries are providing a lot of help to the local inhabitants. But the other thing she and her fellow missionaries are doing is converting Catholics into Baptists and one of the ways they do this is because they have the money and resources to provide help to people whose own Catholic parishes lack the necessary resources and manpower to do the same. There aren’t even enough Catholic priests for the parishes there and the Catholic Church is stretched thin in many of those places. They don’t have enough people there to dig wells for people and provide houses for homeless people like many of the Protestant missionaries who are doing work there.

Another one of my cousins is a Baptist minister and he wants to take his family to go and do missionary work in the Philippines, another mostly Catholic country (although there are a few Muslims there, too),

Maybe the mission work your brother is doing is different, but I’m a little skeptical of what a lot of Protestant missionaries are doing since many of them are just poaching people from other Christian groups.

the Catholoc Church had been persecuted by so many Central American governments in recent history. I believe there are some parishes that probably do not have daily or even regular Sunday Mass because the priest is traveling to different parishes. So, yes, they are stretched thin in many ways. The protestant churches are growing in South America (in Brazil the pentacostal church is really growing) and in Mexico also. Haven’t the protestant churches from the beginning taken Catholics away. These missionaries are well trained and like you said have many resources.

 

[fhansen]

Probably not outright, I am already married to a practicing Catholic. But I would probably go to mass and just not receive communion ever again.

I just find it hard to believe in Catholicism anymore.
I remember converting to the Catholic faith five years ago. I remember how awesome I thought it was that the Catholic Church came from Jesus and the apostles. I remember thinking about how the scripture made so much sense in light of tradition. I don’t know now how I ever came to that conclusion. I remember struggling with certain things and just putting them in the back of my mind. Now they are coming back to haunt me.

I think the main ones are regarding salvation. Here are some examples:

1. "Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:6
2. “The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all!” - Pope Francis
   (not to mention that the New Testament says that without faith it is impossible to please God, whereas Pope Francis says that they need merely to do good works and follow their consciences.)
3. “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!” Galatians 1:8
4. “But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.”

The list goes on… I don’t have time to post them all here right now.
Please do not interpret this to mean that I am prejudiced and have a problem with the idea of other religions being saved… my problem is one of conscience because what Jesus and his apostles teach strongly differ from these teachings.

Also I have heard apologists try to brand Catholicism as having “not changed” over the course of 2000 years, being steadfast in the divine guidance of the Holy Spirit. In reality the Church has changed its position on slavery among other things throughout history, usually catering to the popular view of the time. There are so many contradictions in Church teaching over the years in history, and all apologetics surrounding these contradictions amounts to relying on technicalities of syntax or the meaning of “ex-cathedra.” It all sounds so bogus.

There is also a growing sentiment among Catholics, much of which comes from the clergy, that it really doesn’t matter what you believe so long as you do good and you will be saved. If that is the case, I find very little reason to remain a Catholic. Aside from the reasons I have stated above, I am beginning to miss my Protestant upbringing, and the simplicity of seeking God through prayer and Holy Scripture, and not having to worry about what a pope will say or what odd things my church might teach that will violate my conscience. I also remember the comfort of being able to rest in God’s mercy and repent and grow in holiness out of a love for God and not out of fear of committing mortal sin and suffering His wrath.

I know I have posted on this topic before but I still am not entirely satisfied with the answers. People have responded in my previous posts that the Church is a “growing organism” and that revelation is somehow “progressive” but couldn’t that be the situation with Protestants as well? If the Church claims that her teachings are led by the Holy Spirit then I would expect something more solid than that. For example, if slavery were truly wrong, then the Holy Spirit would have always taught the Church that it were wrong. It would not have taught something different at the time it were in practice. It sounds to me like the abolitionists were more in tune with the HS than the Church was at the time.

Protestants also say odd things that violate our consciences at times. And some say that Scripture, itself, isn’t opposed strongly to slavery-that Paul even seemed to condone it, which made a sola scriptura based society such as the early USA all the more prone to permitting it.

Revelation isn’t progressive, but our understanding of the light of the gospel and how we apply it definitely is progressive. It takes time for human agendas and preferences and selfishness and greed and traditions to step aside and give way, to give way to love, which is the core of the gospel. Meanwhile we’ll keep looking for ways to circumvent this most basic obligation.

Even recognizing God’s will in relation to non-Christians is a movement towards this end; truth is absolutely necessary, and right and good, which makes God’s Church and her message necessary/essential, but that doesn’t mean He doesn’t, by His love, desire all to be saved, and that He cannot accomplish that in spite of a person’s ignorance of the truth, in spite of imperfect knowledge. It’s really all a matter of the Church coming to know God better and better, a huge undertaking, and preferring Him and His way over ours.

 

[CompSciGuy]

More specious rhetoric from you? No one has said that anyone goes to hell for failing in fast and abstinence. It sounds to me that you just want excuses to return to your past forms of “Christianity Lite”.

Wait, so are you saying that failing to fasting and abstinence is not grave matter?
I have no problem with fasting and abstinence themselves, Sometimes during lent I forget it is a Friday and I will get a chicken salad sandwich or something, and I will be halfway through it when I realize it is lent, and I will facepalm. I remember the Pope saying at one point it is better to finish it than to throw it away because it would be a greater sin to waste food. I am wondering at this point would finishing it be a mortal sin.

 

[CompSciGuy]

Keep working at it.
And their opinion is no more valid than your own. Have you read the documents of Vatican II? Didn’t think so. They’re on the Vatican site. I pay attention to what the church actually says and not the various opinions that drift around. I go to the source and that has never failed me yet.

It’s pretty naive to sit around and assume that others are right with God or to “get saved” and then assume (wrongly) that we now have the fullness of truth just because we have a Bible in hand. 500 years of Protestantism certainly hasn’t proved that to be either true or feasible. All it really has done is grossly divide and cripple Christianity and cause errors to proliferate like popcorn popping.

If you know that evangelism is the right thing to do, then you seek to find ways in which to share that faith with others and you spend your life exploring that fullness of truth that is found only in the church that Christ Himself established.

I have read Lumen Gentium many, many times because it is probably the one document that I have had the hardest time with. I quoted parts of it earlier in this thread, in particular the part on Muslims that I can’t for the life of me reconcile with scripture. I have also read Unam Sanctam many times because this document seems very much to contradict Lumen Gentium.

 

[CompSciGuy]

Revelation isn’t progressive, but our understanding of the light of the gospel and how we apply it definitely is progressive. It takes time for human agendas and preferences and selfishness and greed and traditions to step aside and give way, to give way to love, which is the core of the gospel. Meanwhile we’ll keep looking for ways to circumvent this most basic obligation.

This is probably one of the better answers I’ve heard in this thread with regard to revelation.

 

[CompSciGuy]

Earlier you were complaining about the statement from Mother Teresa. But here you are basically affirming it. You are affirming it in so far as it meant God can come to us in whatever state we find ourselves. You are affirming it in so far as it meant that there can be elements of truth outside the Catholic Faith and that this truth is in reality a part of the Catholic Faith.

I think you are misunderstanding me. Mother Theresa’s quote bothered me because it suggested that it is honorable to encourage people in following false gods instead of leading them toward Christ. I then said that my brother, who is not a Catholic, seems to be doing better spiritually than a lot of Catholics I know (myself included). He too would be saddened at Mother Theresa’s quote. So what I am suggesting is could it be possible that the things the Catholic Church has to offer could be unnecessary or even detrimental to the spiritual life? Could it be that all I need is to study the scripture every day like Zach does and seek God in prayer?

 

[fred_conty]

I think you are misunderstanding me. Mother Theresa’s quote bothered me because it suggested that it is honorable to encourage people in following false gods instead of leading them toward Christ. I then said that my brother, who is not a Catholic, seems to be doing better spiritually than a lot of Catholics I know (myself included). He too would be saddened at Mother Theresa’s quote. So what I am suggesting is could it be possible that the things the Catholic Church has to offer could be unnecessary or even detrimental to the spiritual life? Could it be that all I need is to study the scripture every day like Zach does and seek God in prayer?

I look at Mother Teresa in this way … she exorcised many a corporal work of mercy. I would exchange places with her right now.

She may have been in error in saying what she said for everything a saint says isn’t infallible. And I would agree with you that in this case I feel she did make an error in this expression. But then I could be wrong too in not seeing something she rightly saw.

It may have been her deep love for the people that carried her away. All are sometimes guilty of this.

 

[Della]

I think you are misunderstanding me. Mother Theresa’s quote bothered me because it suggested that it is honorable to encourage people in following false gods instead of leading them toward Christ. I then said that my brother, who is not a Catholic, seems to be doing better spiritually than a lot of Catholics I know (myself included). He too would be saddened at Mother Theresa’s quote. So what I am suggesting is could it be possible that the things the Catholic Church has to offer could be unnecessary or even detrimental to the spiritual life? Could it be that all I need is to study the scripture every day like Zach does and seek God in prayer?

To quote Mother Teresa’s comments about Hindus and Muslims following their own faith in order to gain salvation is to take such comments out of the context of her mission, which was not to convert anyone, but to simply to minister to their needs. She left converting others to those who specifically have that charism. By her example of unselfish love she demonstrated the heart of Christianity. She didn’t feel it was up to her to convince anyone of anything, but rather, like the Samaritan who aided the man beaten and left to die, she picked up the physically wounded and dying to minister to their bodily needs. I’m sure she made converts–indeed Malcolm Muggeridge was one of her most famous converts. He say her unconditional love for the lowliest, the most broken was what moved him to conversion.

In her statements she was simplifying what the Church teaches about salvation outside the Church/Christianity: Christ’s death and resurrection redeemed all mankind allowing saving grace to flow to all persons. Whoever avails himself of that grace may be saved. The main emphasis is on the words “may be saved.” We still need to evangelize because so few people, even those who have heard the Gospel, do avail themselves of the saving grace of Christ. It is only in Christ and through Christ that anyone can be saved. That is the truth the Church firmly upholds and will always uphold.

See Acts 10:34-35; Rom 10:12; Ps. 19:1-4a; Hb. 11:6. These verses speak of the universal knowledge of God and that God rewards those who seek him.

 

[exnihilo]

I think you are misunderstanding me. Mother Theresa’s quote bothered me because it suggested that it is honorable to encourage people in following false gods instead of leading them toward Christ. I then said that my brother, who is not a Catholic, seems to be doing better spiritually than a lot of Catholics I know (myself included). He too would be saddened at Mother Theresa’s quote. So what I am suggesting is could it be possible that the things the Catholic Church has to offer could be unnecessary or even detrimental to the spiritual life? Could it be that all I need is to study the scripture every day like Zach does and seek God in prayer?

Della explains well how I view it. I think you are misunderstanding Mother Teresa. I think what she was saying was that her primary role is to help people wherever they were spiritually. She had a charism to perform corporal works of mercy. As a part of the Body of Christ she had a particular gift and focus. She used that gift.

I would be saddened if I thought Mother Teresa meant it was of no use to be a Catholic, that all religions are the same, or that all who are saved are not saved by Jesus through the Church. But I don’t think she meant that by that quote.

 

[Della]

Della explains well how I view it. I think you are misunderstanding Mother Teresa. I think what she was saying was that her primary role is to help people wherever they were spiritually. She had a charism to perform corporal works of mercy. As a part of the Body of Christ she had a particular gift and focus. She used that gift.

I would be saddened if I thought Mother Teresa meant it was of no use to be a Catholic, that all religions are the same, or that all who are saved are not saved by Jesus through the Church. But I don’t think she meant that by that quote.

Yes, Mother Teresa had her own focus, and she didn’t speak for the Church in matters of faith and morals–that’s the duty and authority of the Magisterium. That is who we listen to in such matters not any particular bishop, priest, or religious. The human beings that make up the Church, as individuals, can be wrong and can do things they shouldn’t (not saying Mother Teresa was wrong or did anything wrong). For example, St. Peter didn’t eat with the Gentile Christians because he feared what the Jewish Christians might think, but that didn’t negate his office as the first pope. St. Paul rightly upbraided him for it. Popes and bishops down through the centuries have made bad decisions or been bad people, but the Church’s teachings have never been corrupted because they are not merely the Church’s teachings but those of her Head, Christ Jesus.

 

[Church_Militant]

Wait, so are you saying that failing to fasting and abstinence is not grave matter?
I have no problem with fasting and abstinence themselves, Sometimes during lent I forget it is a Friday and I will get a chicken salad sandwich or something, and I will be halfway through it when I realize it is lent, and I will facepalm. I remember the Pope saying at one point it is better to finish it than to throw it away because it would be a greater sin to waste food. I am wondering at this point would finishing it be a mortal sin.

If deliberate perhaps but to just forget or goof up, you can ask any priest and get the right answer. The church actually teaches that we can substitute other penances in place of Friday penances.

I have read Lumen Gentium many, many times because it is probably the one document that I have had the hardest time with. I quoted parts of it earlier in this thread, in particular the part on Muslims that I can’t for the life of me reconcile with scripture. I have also read Unam Sanctam many times because this document seems very much to contradict Lumen Gentium.

What exactly are these portions that you find so problematic?

 

[fred_conty]

If deliberate perhaps but to just forget or goof up, you can ask any priest and get the right answer. The church actually teaches that we can substitute other penances in place of Friday penances.
What exactly are these portions that you find so problematic?

I thought that on any Friday of the year, except those in Lent, we could substitute something in place of abstinence from meat. But on Fridays in Lent, the church law required us to abstinence from meat. Right?

 

[Church_Militant]

I thought that on any Friday of the year, except those in Lent, we could substitute something in place of abstinence from meat. But on Fridays in Lent, the church law required us to abstinence from meat. Right?

From Fr. Grondin.
Do Catholics need to abstain from meat every Friday?

And Jimmy Akin.
Meat on Lenten Fridays: A Mortal Sin? by Jimmy Akin

 

[PRmerger]

These get their doctrines from the scriptures, as opposed to church teaching, which evidently is subject to change.

Firstly, the doctrine that you get your doctrine from the Scriptures can’t be found in a single page of the Bible.

Secondly, since the Catholic Church gave them their Bible, they are actually getting their doctrines from what the Catholic Church gives them.

IOW: without a religion (that is, without the Catholic Church) there is no Bible. At least, no New Testament.

 

[Lormar]

I think you are misunderstanding me. Mother Theresa’s quote bothered me because it suggested that it is honorable to encourage people in following false gods instead of leading them toward Christ. I then said that my brother, who is not a Catholic, seems to be doing better spiritually than a lot of Catholics I know (myself included). He too would be saddened at Mother Theresa’s quote. So what I am suggesting is could it be possible that the things the Catholic Church has to offer could be unnecessary or even detrimental to the spiritual life? Could it be that all I need is to study the scripture every day like Zach does and seek God in prayer?

I understand what you mean.
One gets the impression these days from the Church that it matters not what you believe or if, for that matter, you believe in anything. All are saved. God is Mercy. We are told we do not know for a fact if anyone at all is in Hell other than Lucifer and some of his minions. If it doesn’t matter whether a person is Catholic or not, and all can and will get to Heaven no matter what they are, why bother being Catholic?