Ten Commandments Disallowed in Courthouses

[wabrams]

Lizzie:

English common law was established by Catholics in the Middle Ages and was based on customs…the way Catholics settled their lay questions.

And it was used by the founding fathers to set up our laws based on how it was being used in England at that time. Several hundred years has a way of changing laws to some degree. Besides, english common law also comes from the traditions of Germanic law, which parts of it can be dated back to the barbarian tribes. There is no denying that the Catholic Church had influence on the law, but so would any other entity that dominated and creeped into every facit of civilization for several hundred years.

 

[wabrams]

mlchance:

Not Iroquois. The myth that the Founders studied the Iroquois Nations for inspiration about the American form of government is just that: a myth. It never happened.

The thesis was advanced by a few historians who got a bit carried away noting superficial similarities and minor meetings combined with a whole bunch of unsupportable speculation about the Founders “real motives.” Basically, the entire thesis was a giant post hoc error that was seized upon by the media and then took on a life of its own.

– Mark L. Chance.

Oh, so Ben Franklin just spent a couple of months in upstate New York before going to France for vacation?

 

[Brad]

Lizzie:

For some reason, persons on this Catholic site keep trying to deny the basis of Christianity in the founding of this country. Why is that?

Not converted to the Gospel OR actions not in sync with beliefs.

Either way, irrational in faith practice.

 

[Brad]

Thekla:

I am born and raised Catholic and my question is “Why care?” Honestly, I don’t understand. It seems people are so needy and hung up on branding government with some sort of Christian stamp. I see it as a sign of weak faith; as if they need the approval of the government.

I suggest you study some history. Study RECENT history.

Then study case law and how decisions have been made.

You see as a “branding” of government what is actually a reflection of government.

This is not about people forcing Christianity into the public. It has ALWAYS been in the public in this country. This is about systematic attempt to remove Christian principles from our education, legal, and political systems, which are highly influential.

Now, when you study recent history, notice how Hitler rose to power. Study how Stalin rose to power. Their rise required Christianity to be stomped out. Stomp it out in public first. Stomp it out in private later. Christian principles are diametrically opposed to tyrannical governments. Without them (thought control), tyrnannical government can and do rise to power and they become the deciders of right or wrong.

 

[Lizzie]

wabrams:

And it was used by the founding fathers to set up our laws based on how it was being used in England at that time.

Wrong. The papers in the Library of Congress refute your supposition. The US rebelled against the laws of the English state which imposed one religion on their populace.

 

[Brad]

David_Paul:

Why care? Because there are people running around trying to rewrite American history. It is Orwellian. Why would Catholics deny the truth of the role of religion in the founding of America? It happens on thread after thread. What happened, what was preached, that church services were held for over 60 years in the House of Representatives, that they were held in Supreme Court chambers and in executive branch office buildings in not a matter for debate.

It is fact. It is not “branding” the founding of American with anything. It is telling the truth. I wouldn’t even bother mentioning religion and early America if misinformation wasn’t so widespread.

Yet when information is provided proving Catholics on this forum were incorrect…a few days later a new thread on the topic is posted and the people come out with the same disinformation.

Why?

I don’t get it.

Liberal agenda opposed to how the Church operates. Why wouldn’t we have people on this forum doing this when we have them in our churches as lay people AND religious.

This is part of it. Secondly are those that, through no fault of their own, have been extremely poorly educated in history AND catechesis. They are victims of the liberal agenda.

 

[Brad]

Thekla:

Okay, but it’s not really about rewriting history, but about what you consider the rewriting of American religious history. I don’t see people wailing and carrying on over the way Columbus’ first trip to the Americas has been portrayed. It’s not like we have a nation of history buffs outraged over history textbooks and TV portrayals.

It’s a certain kind of history, and I’d call your examples practices - not events. It just feels like people give this stuff all this importance and in the end they are arguing over minutia. That early settlers wanted to be free to practice their faith and now they want the government’s stamp of approval; it’s ironic.

Besides, I think Catholics need to tread very carefully when they walk with “Christians.” I’ve seen a lot of rewriting of history on this board when it comes to the anti-Catholic bigotry espoused by some of our “cousins.” I rarely mind things that get their shorts in a knot.

You are on the titanic. It is sinking. Any you are worried there is not enough food for the next 2 weeks of the trip.

Your concern about anti-Catholic bigotry is a good one. But when it comes at the expense of the country reflecting ANYTHING Christian, it will soon be irrelevant.

 

[Brad]

patg:

Thanks for the clarification. That almost no one can read them does change their significance in regards to promoting a specific religion.

Oh. But some atheist tourist may have a background in Hebrew AND binoculaurs. We wouldn’t want to upset his apple cart. He may be in a bad mood at lunchtime.

 

[Brad]

patg:

I don’t deny it - I just recognize the inherent dangers of a political system supporting a specific religion, regardless of the views of the founders. It has never been a good thing.

Let’s see. It was a pretty darn good thing for the United States of America for the past 230 years or so.

In fact, it gave us the fortitude to stand up against Nazism, Fascism, and Communism. I’d say there are a few countries that are happy that those systems do not dominate their way of life any longer. By the way, all 3 require that God NOT be acknowledged. That is what the SC majority is essentially moving towards.

 

[Brad]

Richardols:

This country was not founded on the basis of the Christian religion nor was established as a Christian nation.

Just because the Fundies are pushing that false view of American history to fit into their eschatological doctrine doesn’t mean that Catholics should buy into it.

Still wrong. Still suggesting that the Founding Fathers didn’t understand their own Constitution. Still suggesting that the Founding Fathers ignored the Declaration of Independence that was the basis for formation of a country and a Constitution. Still out of touch with the Pope who pushed heavily for the European Constitution to mention it’s Christian roots and foundation.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=62539

 

[Brad]

Richardols:

I agree. The “Christians” (who generally deny that Catholics are also Christians) have an agenda to make America a “Christian” nation. To them, that means not a Protestant nation (few, if any mainline Protestants are pushing that line) but a Fundamentalist evangelical nation based on their reading of the Bible.

Sadly, they’ve suckered some Catholics into agreeing with them.

Actually, I agree with the Gospel and it is much more in sync with their actual position (not the one you are concerned about) than the position of liberal Catholics that mostly are opposed to teachings of their own Church, let alone the principles of their country.

I see it more as a prejudicial position against Protestants is skewing your understanding of what they are trying to do.

Can you find any quote from anywhere by any Protestant that suggest they want to force Catholics to convert?

 

[Richardols]

Lizzie:

Wrong. The papers in the Library of Congress refute your supposition. The US rebelled against the laws of the English state which imposed one religion on their populace.

Lizzie, you don’t know what you’re talking about. We didn’t rebel against British law; we continued to rely on British common law, then and even now much of our law is still based on British common law.

The rightists on this Board who are so hot to believe that our country was founded on religious principles ought to be aware of how hated Catholics were in the American colonies. In 1774, the British Parliament passed The Quebec Act which allowed the Catholic faith to be practiced.

The CAtholic Church consistently then counseled loyalty to the Crown. Protestant Americans were outraged that the Crown would allow Catholics to practice their faith freely. Intolerance of CAtholics and Catholicism was virtually universal in the American colonies.

All the Catholics on this Board who are so anxious to side with the Fundies on a “Christian America” ought to read about the Act and see just what a “Christian America” would have amounted to.

That’s another reason I never want to see a “Christian” America because I know what it meant historically.

 

[Brad]

Richardols:

You’re right and you can also bet the farm that not one of those services were Catholic, a religion that was generally despised by the Founding Fathers as well as by most Americans at the beginning of the 19th century. (Only one Catholic, Charles Carroll, signed the Declaration if Independence)

Your repeated argument has been that this nation was not founded based on Christian principles and now you complain that only one signer of the Declaration was Catholic. Why should it matter if they established such a secular nation?

Hmmm. Seems like your issue is the nation is not Catholic, not that the nation was not founded on Christian principles.

 

[patg]

Brad:

Let’s see. It was a pretty darn good thing for the United States of America for the past 230 years or so.

In fact, it gave us the fortitude to stand up against Nazism, Fascism, and Communism. I’d say there are a few countries that are happy that those systems do not dominate their way of life any longer. By the way, all 3 require that God NOT be acknowledged. That is what the SC majority is essentially moving towards.

We stood up to them because we were “Christian”? What nonsense! We stood up to them because they were trying to kill us. Basic survival is what drove us, not the notion that we were a nation with a specific religion.

 

[Brad]

Lizzie:

Thank you for bringing Catholic reason and logic into the discussion.

So hard to find these days. I try but I am weak and need help!

 

[Richardols]

Brad:

Still suggesting that the Founding Fathers didn’t understand their own Constitution.

Okay, you tell me where God and Christianity are mentioned in the Constitution and I’ll apologize. They did understand their own Constitution and they deliberately kept God out of it.

I never want to see a “Christian” America because history has shown us what it would be perverted to be.

 

[Brad]

Lizzie:

Wrong. The papers in the Library of Congress refute your supposition. The US rebelled against the laws of the English state which imposed one religion on their populace.

Thank God for those rebellious Protestants! We could all be in the Church of England today. Instead, we can be Catholics!

 

[Richardols]

Brad:

Your repeated argument has been that this nation was not founded based on Christian principles and now you complain that only one signer of the Declaration was Catholic. Why should it matter if they established such a secular nation?

Hmmm. Seems like your issue is the nation is not Catholic, not that the nation was not founded on Christian principles.

Okay, I was wrong to mention that incidental fact. The country was not founded as a Christian nation. Thank God and thanks to the wisdom of the founding fathers.

 

[Thekla]

Brad:

I suggest you study some history. Study RECENT history.

Then study case law and how decisions have been made.

You see as a “branding” of government what is actually a reflection of government.

This is not about people forcing Christianity into the public. It has ALWAYS been in the public in this country. This is about systematic attempt to remove Christian principles from our education, legal, and political systems, which are highly influential.

Now, when you study recent history, notice how Hitler rose to power. Study how Stalin rose to power. Their rise required Christianity to be stomped out. Stomp it out in public first. Stomp it out in private later. Christian principles are diametrically opposed to tyrannical governments. Without them (thought control), tyrnannical government can and do rise to power and they become the deciders of right or wrong.

I hardly need to be lectured by you about my need to learn history. Actually, I’ll just suggest that you do the same. Being a German American who minored in history, my family and I are keenly aware of Hitler’s rise to power. My grandfather and his brothers weren’t long American citizens before they were called to serve in WWII to fight against former friends and relatives.

Hitler was no tyrant; he ruled with the support of the German people. He exploited fear and used propaganda to curtail freedoms and they let him. Hitler used religion to his own advantage in order to strengthen his government.

Just another reason why I am incredible put off by the mixing of government and religion.

 

[Brad]

Richardols:

Lizzie, you don’t know what you’re talking about. We didn’t rebel against British law; we continued to rely on British common law, then and even now much of our law is still based on British common law.

The rightists on this Board who are so hot to believe that our country was founded on religious principles ought to be aware of how hated Catholics were in the American colonies. In 1774, the British Parliament passed The Quebec Act which allowed the Catholic faith to be practiced.

The CAtholic Church consistently then counseled loyalty to the Crown. Protestant Americans were outraged that the Crown would allow Catholics to practice their faith freely. Intolerance of CAtholics and Catholicism was virtually universal in the American colonies.

All the Catholics on this Board who are so anxious to side with the Fundies on a “Christian America” ought to read about the Act and see just what a “Christian America” would have amounted to.

That’s another reason I never want to see a “Christian” America because I know what it meant historically.

Ok. When you produce evidence that any Protestant has a gameplan to establish a Christian nation that will jail, torture, and kill Catholics then I will have some concern.

Until then, I’m more concerned about the real problem that our government is becoming hostile to God and Christianity, as reflected by our rampant immorality, which is killing bodies and souls faster than you can say bigotry.