Ten Commandments

[geometer]

What you said about Catholics and Catholicism was disrespectful-should you be immune from criticism?

Well, I guess I am being criticized regardless of whether I am immune or not. I have only said what I believe to be true, about catholic tradition’s rejection of the first commandment of the decalogue.

What you suggest, even without saying such a thing, is that Jewish tradition invented a new first commandment for the decalogue, because they were bigoted toward catholics.

Such an idea is really absurd. It seems obvious to me that the Rabbis have never been confused about that first commandment, and those who disagree are confused.

 

[Ignatius]

My question is why do Catholics list the Commandments differently than what is in the Bible??

Your presumption is incorrect. The Catholic Church has the commandments correctly as in the bible. They are all there. Which ones do you think are missing?
**I **Deu 5:6 I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Deu 5:7 Thou shalt not have strange gods in my sight.
Deu 5:8 Thou shalt not make to thy self a graven thing, nor the likeness of any things, that are in heaven above, or that are in the earth beneath, or that abide in the waters under the earth.
Deu 5:9 Thou shalt not adore them, and thou shalt not serve them. For I am the Lord thy God, a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon their children unto the third and fourth generation, to them that hate me,
Deu 5:10 And shewing mercy unto many thousands, to them that love me, and keep my commandments.
**II **Deu 5:11 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for he shall not be unpunished that taketh his name upon a vain thing.
**III **Deu 5:12 Observe the day of the sabbath, to sanctify it, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee.
Deu 5:13 Six days shalt thou labour, and shalt do all thy works.
Deu 5:14 The seventh is the day of the sabbath, that is, the rest of the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not do any work therein, thou nor thy son nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant nor thy maidservant, nor thy ox, nor thy ***, nor any of thy beasts, nor the stranger that is within thy gates: that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest, even as thyself.
Deu 5:15 Remember that thou also didst serve in Egypt, and the Lord thy God brought thee out from thence with a strong hand, and a stretched out arm. Therefore hath he commanded thee that thou shouldst observe the sabbath day.
**IV **Deu 5:16 Honour thy father and mother, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee, that thou mayst live a long time, and it may be well with thee in the land, which the Lord thy God will give thee.
**V **Deu 5:17 Thou shalt not kill.
**VI **Deu 5:18 Neither shalt thou commit adultery.
**VII **Deu 5:19 And thou shalt not steal.
**VIII **Deu 5:20 Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.
**IX **Deu 5:21 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife:
**X **nor his house, nor his field, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his as s, nor any thing that is his.

There are several ways of numbering them, the Protestant method isn’t in the bible.
Here are the five most common ways of numbering the decalogue.
catholic-resources.org/Bible/Decalogue.htm

 

[geometer]

Your presumption is incorrect. The Catholic Church has the commandments correctly as in the bible. They are all there. Which ones do you think are missing?

Exodus 20 verse one is missing which is Kodesh.

 

[juliamajor]

Well, I guess I am being criticized regardless of whether I am immune or not. I have only said what I believe to be true, about catholic tradition’s rejection of the first commandment of the decalogue.

What you suggest, even without saying such a thing, is that Jewish tradition invented a new first commandment for the decalogue, because they were bigoted toward catholics.

Such an idea is really absurd. It seems obvious to me that the Rabbis have never been confused about that first commandment, and those who disagree are confused.

that’s freakin hilarious! Do you even understand what your saying? Your statement is bizarre on so many levels that I cannot even fathom it.
Ah , israelites predate Catholics by several thousand years so that odd little tidbit is just absurd.
Rabbis interpret one one, others another.Do Christians and Jews interpret the same way.? were the early Christians idolators.? Art work and statuary honoring saints and God have been around a very long time.You need to see the catacombs.
art that depicts God Jesus the saints, plus animals is intrinsically evil? that’s what your saying.Why don’t we go to all the museums, churches and private home and destroy those wicked sin causing idols.Lets get rid of Michaeangelo, Da vinci,Fra angelico,Botticelli and the rest of the great artist because it is creating paganism? Do you even see the absurdity of such views?Are those idols? When does an idol become an idol- how and why is it considered and idol?Do you know the difference between an idol and a statue?Can one not be the other or is a art work that portrays a human or an animal idolatry in and of itself?If we were to stay as strict as the ‘first word’ nothing of animal,human,cosmos would ever be portrayed by people of faith.We know that that does not happen.-that such strictures would be virtually impossible to follow.
Idolatry is more in the mind and heart that a physical structure of paint and wood.Intangibles as well as tangibles can be deified and turned to idols. this sillines is the same as veiling a woman to keep her virtue- is the woman virtuous or does the veil make her virtuous?does the statue make one an idolator, or is it the person’s idoatrous behavior?

 

[Ignatius]

Exodus 20 verse one is missing which is Kodesh.

Exo 20:1 And the Lord spoke all these words. That is what you have a problem with?

The main discrepancies with the Protestant numbering occur at the **BEGINNING ** of the texts, in the first and/or second commandments:

• Most contemporary Jews consider Exod 20:1-2 to be the first commandment, enjoining people to recognize the LORD as their God, while taking Exod 20:3-6 together forbiding both polytheistic beliefs and practices.
• In contrast with the Jewish numbering, many of the Protestant sects ignore Exod 20:1-2 (and Deut 5:6) and emphasize the commandments that oppose polytheism (no other gods; Exod 20:3-6), and artifically separate out the related commandment and call it the second commandment.

**I **Deu 5:6 I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Deu 5:7 Thou shalt not have strange gods in my sight.
Deu 5:8 Thou shalt not make to thy self a graven thing, nor the likeness of any things, that are in heaven above, or that are in the earth beneath, or that abide in the waters under the earth.
Deu 5:9 Thou shalt not adore them, and thou shalt not serve them. For I am the Lord thy God, a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon their children unto the third and fourth generation, to them that hate me,
Deu 5:10 And shewing mercy unto many thousands, to them that love me, and keep my commandments.
**II **Deu 5:11 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for he shall not be unpunished that taketh his name upon a vain thing.
**III **Deu 5:12 Observe the day of the sabbath, to sanctify it, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee.
Deu 5:13 Six days shalt thou labour, and shalt do all thy works.
Deu 5:14 The seventh is the day of the sabbath, that is, the rest of the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not do any work therein, thou nor thy son nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant nor thy maidservant, nor thy ox, nor thy ***, nor any of thy beasts, nor the stranger that is within thy gates: that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest, even as thyself.
Deu 5:15 Remember that thou also didst serve in Egypt, and the Lord thy God brought thee out from thence with a strong hand, and a stretched out arm. Therefore hath he commanded thee that thou shouldst observe the sabbath day.
**IV **Deu 5:16 Honour thy father and mother, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee, that thou mayst live a long time, and it may be well with thee in the land, which the Lord thy God will give thee.
**V **Deu 5:17 Thou shalt not kill.
**VI **Deu 5:18 Neither shalt thou commit adultery.
**VII **Deu 5:19 And thou shalt not steal.
**VIII **Deu 5:20 Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.
**IX **Deu 5:21 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife:
**X **nor his house, nor his field, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his as s, nor any thing that is his.

Notice that the Protestant method isn’t found in the bible.

 

[geometer]

that’s freakin hilarious! Do you even understand what your saying? Your statement is bizarre on so many levels that I cannot even fathom it.
Ah , israelites predate Catholics by several thousand years so that odd little tidbit is just absurd.
Rabbis interpret one one, others another.Do Christians and Jews interpret the same way.? were the early Christians idolators.? Art work and statuary honoring saints and God have been around a very long time.You need to see the catacombs.
art that depicts God Jesus the saints, plus animals is intrinsically evil? that’s what your saying.Why don’t we go to all the museums, churches and private home and destroy those wicked sin causing idols.Lets get rid of Michaeangelo, Da vinci,Fra angelico,Botticelli and the rest of the great artist because it is creating paganism? Do you even see the absurdity of such views?Are those idols? When does an idol become an idol- how and why is it considered and idol?Do you know the difference between an idol and a statue?Can one not be the other or is a art work that portrays a human or an animal idolatry in and of itself?

Oh boy, does somebody have questions, about idols, no less…

When I had questions, I did as Jesus said to do, I asked a Rabbi.

Really you need it bad, because I haven’t posted one word about idols in this thread.

But, when you calm down, and realize who does not like idols, you might tell me what a real idol is, and then why do you not approve of a real idol?

 

[juliamajor]

I am perfectly calm and I read the Rabbis and their commentaries.So you could say I have a good working relationship with the sages

 

[geometer]

I am perfectly calm and I read the Rabbis and their commentaries.So you could say I have a good working relationship with the sages

Well, thanks for the reply, but next time you have a question, especially like the littany that you presented me with, be brave, screw up your courage, and talk to a live Rabbi. You’ll be glad you did.

If you would be so kind, my questions were not rhetorical, I would really like to know you better.

What is a real idol?

Why should you disapprove of it?

 

[juliamajor]

According to Jewish tradition, G-d gave the Jewish people 613 mitzvot (commandments). All 613 of those mitzvot are equally sacred, equally binding and equally the word of G-d. All of these mitzvot are treated as equally important, because human beings, with our limited understanding of the universe, have no way of knowing which mitzvot are more important in the eyes of the Creator. Pirkei Avot, a book of the Mishnah, teaches “Be as meticulous in performing a ‘minor’ mitzvah as you are with a ‘major’ one, because you don’t know what kind of reward you’ll get for various mitzvot.” It also says, “Run after the most ‘minor’ mitzvah as you would after the most ‘important’ and flee from transgression, because doing one mitzvah draws you into doing another, and doing one transgression draws you into doing another, and because the reward for a mitzvah is a mitzvah and the punishment for a transgression is a transgression.” In other words, every mitzvah is important, because even the most seemingly trivial mitzvot draw you into a pattern of leading your life in accordance with the Creator’s wishes, rather than in accordance with your own.

But what about the so-called “Ten Commandments,” the words recorded in Exodus 20, the words that the Creator Himself wrote on the two stone tablets that Moses brought down from Mount Sinai (Ex. 31:18), which Moses smashed upon seeing the idolatry of the golden calf (Ex. 32:19)? In the Torah, these words are never referred to as the Ten Commandments. In the Torah, they are called Aseret ha-D’varim (Ex. 34:28, Deut. 4:13 and Deut. 10:4). In rabbinical texts, they are referred to as Aseret ha-Dibrot. The words d’varim and dibrot come from the Hebrew root Dalet-Beit-Reish, meaning word, speak or thing; thus, the phrase is accurately translated as the Ten Sayings, the Ten Statements, the Ten Declarations, the Ten Words or even the Ten Things, but not as the Ten Commandments, which would be Aseret ha-Mitzvot.

The Aseret ha-Dibrot are not understood as individual mitzvot; rather, they are categories or classifications of mitzvot. Each of the 613 mitzvot can be subsumed under one of these ten categories, some in more obvious ways than others. For example, the mitzvah not to work on Shabbat rather obviously falls within the category of remembering the Sabbath day and keeping it holy. The mitzvah to fast on Yom Kippur fits into that category somewhat less obviously: all holidays are in some sense a Sabbath, and the category encompasses any mitzvah related to sacred time. The mitzvah not to stand aside while a person’s life is in danger fits somewhat obviously into the category against murder. It is not particularly obvious, however, that the mitzvah not to embarrass a person fits within the category against murder: it causes the blood to drain from your face thereby shedding blood.

List of the Aseret ha-Dibrot
According to Judaism, the Aseret ha-Dibrot identify the following ten categories of mitzvot. Other religions divide this passage differently. See The “Ten Commandments” Controversy below. Please remember that these are categories of the 613 mitzvot, which according to Jewish tradition are binding only upon Jews. The only mitzvot binding upon gentiles are the seven Noahic commandments.

1. Belief in G-d
   This category is derived from the declaration in Ex. 20:2 beginning, “I am the L-rd, your G-d…”
2. Prohibition of Improper Worship
   This category is derived from Ex. 20:3-6, beginning, “You shall not have other gods…” It encompasses within it the prohibition against the worship of other gods as well as the prohibition of improper forms of worship of the one true G-d, such as worshiping G-d through an idol.
3. Prohibition of Oaths
   This category is derived from Ex. 20:7, beginning, “You shall not take the name of the L-rd your G-d in vain…” This includes prohibitions against perjury, breaking or delaying the performance of vows or promises, and speaking G-d’s name or swearing unnecessarily.
4. Observance of Sacred Times
   This category is derived from Ex. 20:8-11, beginning, “Remember the Sabbath day…” It encompasses all mitzvot related to Shabbat, holidays, or other sacred time.
5. Respect for Parents and Teachers
   This category is derived from Ex. 20:12, beginning, “Honor your father and mother…”
6. Prohibition of Physically Harming a Person
   This category is derived from Ex. 20:13, saying, “You shall not murder.”
7. Prohibition of Sexual Immorality
   This category is derived from Ex. 20:13, saying, “You shall not commit adultery.”
8. Prohibition of Theft
   This category is derived from Ex. 20:13, saying, “You shall not steal.” It includes within it both outright robbery as well as various forms of theft by deception and unethical business practices. It also includes kidnapping, which is essentially “stealing” a person.
9. Prohibition of Harming a Person through Speech
   This category is derived from Ex. 20:13, saying, “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.” It includes all forms of lashon ha-ra (sins relating to speech).
10. Prohibition of Coveting
    This category is derived from Ex. 20:14, beginning, “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house…”

 

[adrift]

I would pose a question. The Ten Commandments are listed in the Bible in at least 2 different places. My question is why do Catholics list the Commandments differently than what is in the Bible??

We do? You are quite mistaken. I will ask you a question. Where in the Bible does it number the commandments?

Does not the Ten Commandments state that one will have no idols?? Yet you pray to these idols. Sounds to me something in your religion has gone amiss.

Dragon

1
1 Then God delivered all these commandments:
2
"I, the LORD, am your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery.
3
You shall not have other gods besides me.
4
You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth;
5
2 you shall not bow down before them or worship them. For I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishment for their fathers’ wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation;
6
but bestowing mercy down to the thousandth generation, on the children of those who love me and keep my commandments.
7

It sounds to me that you don’t know what you are saying. Note the commandment is speaking of false WORSHIP. Idols are believed to be gods. Where do we have idols that we worship and treat as a god? Are you referring to statues? I hope not. You need to understand what an idol is before you make baseless accusations. False accusations are breaking the commandment against false witness.

 

[geometer]

stonewalling again…

life is too short to be so cold…

Julia, earth to Julia, come in Julia…

 

[kepha1]

It can be repeatedly demonstrated in various ways that the Catholic Bible has not changed anything, but is actually closer to the Talmud than Protestant Bibles. PROTESTANTS CHANGED THE NUMBERING OF THE COMMANDMENTS, NOT CATHOLICS. This false charge is always followed by cults accusations of idolatry, which, upon analysis, is an insane, ridiculous, and even hateful charge. It is a gross misrepresentation of Catholic teaching, depends on biblical contortionisms, it denies the BIBLICAL use of statuary, and is tied in to the heresy of iconoclasm which is rooted in Gnosticism.

Exo 20:1 And the Lord spoke all these words. That is what you have a problem with?

The main discrepancies with the Protestant numbering occur at the **BEGINNING **of the texts, in the first and/or second commandments:

• Most contemporary Jews consider Exod 20:1-2 to be the first commandment, enjoining people to recognize the LORD as their God, while taking Exod 20:3-6 together forbiding both polytheistic beliefs and practices.
• In contrast with the Jewish numbering, many of the Protestant sects ignore Exod 20:1-2 (and Deut 5:6) and emphasize the commandments that oppose polytheism (no other gods; Exod 20:3-6), and artifically separate out the related commandment and call it the second commandment.

**I **Deu 5:6 I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Deu 5:7 Thou shalt not have strange gods in my sight.
Deu 5:8 Thou shalt not make to thy self a graven thing, nor the likeness of any things, that are in heaven above, or that are in the earth beneath, or that abide in the waters under the earth.
Deu 5:9 Thou shalt not adore them, and thou shalt not serve them. For I am the Lord thy God, a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon their children unto the third and fourth generation, to them that hate me,
Deu 5:10 And shewing mercy unto many thousands, to them that love me, and keep my commandments.
**II **Deu 5:11 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for he shall not be unpunished that taketh his name upon a vain thing.
**III **Deu 5:12 Observe the day of the sabbath, to sanctify it, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee.
Deu 5:13 Six days shalt thou labour, and shalt do all thy works.
Deu 5:14 The seventh is the day of the sabbath, that is, the rest of the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not do any work therein, thou nor thy son nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant nor thy maidservant, nor thy ox, nor thy ***, nor any of thy beasts, nor the stranger that is within thy gates: that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest, even as thyself.
Deu 5:15 Remember that thou also didst serve in Egypt, and the Lord thy God brought thee out from thence with a strong hand, and a stretched out arm. Therefore hath he commanded thee that thou shouldst observe the sabbath day.
**IV **Deu 5:16 Honour thy father and mother, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee, that thou mayst live a long time, and it may be well with thee in the land, which the Lord thy God will give thee.
**V **Deu 5:17 Thou shalt not kill.
**VI **Deu 5:18 Neither shalt thou commit adultery.
**VII **Deu 5:19 And thou shalt not steal.
**VIII **Deu 5:20 Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.
**IX **Deu 5:21 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife:
**X **nor his house, nor his field, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his as s, nor any thing that is his.

Notice that the Protestant method isn’t found in the bible.

Ignatius is correct. Protestants who rely on versions altered in the 16th century are wrong to think they have what in their opinion are infallible versions to measure Catholic bibles. They do so in a very dim light.

Just Who Did Change The Ten Commandments?

 

[Joe_5859]

The first commandment of the decalogue is Exodus 20:1-2. The catholic church rejects these.

I have no idea, what you mean. The first commandment is the first two verses of Exodus 20.

We all know that catholicism rejects that commandment, and you say it has something to do with bigotry. Well, define it any way you like, but I must respect the Rabbis oppinion. I have no idea why you were able to find that odd document. That would be just another question for a Rabbi to answer.

I would ask for evidence of this ridiculous assertion but I fear that you are not here for honest discussion.

 

[geometer]

I would ask for evidence of this ridiculous assertion but I fear that you are not here for honest discussion.

Perfect love casts out all fear…

 

[crazzeto]

Perfect love casts out all fear…

That isn’t evidence of your claims, nice try though.

 

[MonFrere]

Perfect love casts out all fear…

Yes, and I just bet Joe was shaking in his shoes with “fear” when he wrote that.

Maybe we do need an 11th Commandment ---- Thou shalt not insult your neighbor, nor his intelligence, nor his integrity, but you shall honor him as your equal.

MonFrere

 

[Joe_5859]

Perfect love casts out all fear…

Nice dodge. Am I to assume by that that you simply have no evidence to support the claim that the Catholic Church rejects the First Commandment?

 

[geometer]

Nice dodge. Am I to assume by that that you simply have no evidence to support the claim that the Catholic Church rejects the First Commandment?

Well, the first two verses of Exodus 20 are together the first commandment. They are both performances.

I believe that several catholics on this forum have posted that the first commandment is “you shall have no other gods before me” this is part of the second commandment and is a prohibition.

 

[crazzeto]

Well, the first two verses of Exodus 20 are together the first commandment. They are both performances.

I believe that several catholics on this forum have posted that the first commandment is “you shall have no other gods before me” this is part of the second commandment and is a prohibition.

Where in this is a Commandment?

drbo.org/chapter/02020.htm

1 And the Lord spoke all these words: 2 I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage

God is identifying him self, he isn’t offering a commandment. The first commandment starts at verse 3. Nice try though. And thanks to Deuteronomy, we know that

Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any things, that are in heaven above, or that are in the earth beneath, or that abide in the waters under the earth.

Is combined with

7 Thou shalt not have strange gods in my sight.

As St. Agustine taught. Please dont’ ask me to ask a Rabbi, you haven’t provided which verse in the bible you keep misinterpeting yet.

 

[geometer]

Where in this is a Commandment?

drbo.org/chapter/02020.htm

God is identifying him self, he isn’t offering a commandment. The first commandment starts at verse 3. Nice try though. And thanks to Deuteronomy, we know that

Is combined with

As St. Agustine taught. Please dont’ ask me to ask a Rabbi, you haven’t provided which verse in the bible you keep misinterpeting yet.

The first verse is kodesh, which means, God did speak the words of the commandments to everyone assembled before the mountain, and you shall live by every word he spoke.

The second verse, commands that you are to know him as your savior, as he has saved them from bondage in Egypt.

The first two verses are just this important, he is your one and only savior, and what he tells you, do…

The first commandment is the great commandment to Know God.