po18guy
Well-known member
They have a very funny way of showing it…
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LDNCatholic
Guest
Indeed, I wonder if people said similar things when Christ himself whipped the traders in the Temple and drove them away?
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ralphinal
Guest
But Christ had claim to it and authority to do so
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LDNCatholic
Guest
Very true Ralph good point, but are we not called to be like Christ?
If it wasn’t for civil disobedience the world would be a very very different place, for the worst I think.
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FCEGM
Guest
Quote:
So much for St. Joan of Arc, then.What you rightly lament is jingoistic nationalism. The Church, however, very much upholds patriotism:
catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=1125&CFID=14267995&CFTOKEN=59700573
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ralphinal
Guest
Good point. At what time, however, does civil disobenience cross the line into basic criminality?
Breaking into a government military base to damage things is very problematic. What if it was not an abandon base? If they had been shot and killed, who would be to blame?
po18guy
Well-known member
Relativism! The money Changers were active in evil. The missiles in the silos have NEVER been used offensively. They have never harmed anyone. The missiles are not in the Church.
Liberals have difficulty in distinguishing between their hatred of U.S. war and the ever-present and on-going evil of abortion. Based on the evils of relativism, they will vote (D)eath this November - and babies will be dying long after the hated war is over.
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LDNCatholic
Guest
However I think you will find that missiles such as them have been used to devastating effect in certain East Asian nations.
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LDNCatholic
Guest
The nuns would have been to blame, they took a risk.
It might fall under what could be classified as criminal activity but there are numerous instances of civil disobedience which were needed, but were classified as criminality.
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RobHom
Guest
I do not believe even for an instant that these to Sisters are in the least “un-patriotic”! I have never for an instance supported the war in Iraq. Its a bad joke foisted on the people of the world. DO NOT make the mistake of misunderstanding me…especially the muslims here. I fully support the war against terror and terrorists. What I and many Americans, and others throughout the world disagree with is the “conduct of the war”. It is being micromanaged and done wrong. What should have been done should have taken 6 months, and no more.
I served my country PROUDLY for 10 years joining the US Army in 1967, further volunteering for duty in Viet Nam in 1968 and remained there for two and a half years. In hindsight that war and its conduct was a disaster. Our country lost 58,000 of its finest men and women…all of whom answered the call to duty.
I had grave doubts as to the veracity of the real purpose of the war from its inception, grave doubts shared by many Americans.
The Sisters are standing for for what they believe…and actually had the nerve to stand up for those beliefs!! You would be literally amazed to know how many actual “combat Veterans” are against this current war…because it is being done wrong. vaiw.org/vet/index.php ivaw.org/ and this is the organization of my “Brothers in Arms” from Vietnam who have taken a stand against this war: vvaw.org/ and do not be confused by these idiots: vvaw.org/about/vvawai.php
Think about it… We spent Less actual time eradicating the Japanese and Nazi threat to the world!! Why? Because it was a just war. There is a just basis to this war, but it is not being used, and not being used to resolve the war.
That these Sisters did not get arrested at a protest at an abortion clinic…is of no matter, and is in an invalid premise to criticize them. Thousands of Catholics daily are involved in protests and work against abortion… But its sad that so few have spoken up on the issue of this war…
DO NOT MAKE THE MISTAKE OF THINKING I DO NOT SUPPORT THE TROOPS!! THEY ARE MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN ARMS!! SUPPORT THE TROOPS 110%!!
In fact, in the past year, even though I am 58…I tried to return to Active Duty… I had the support of my US Senator as well, but the Army declined me on the basis of my age…even though they are sending Reservists older than myself into the combat zone!
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RobHom
Guest
My Brothers and Sisters… I truly and sincerely have a request of you:
Please stop abusing the word “Liberal”!
In its proper context…as defined by the English language (properly) a Liberal is a good thing, whereas a Conservative is not. Please check Webster’s here: merriam-webster.com/
I myself espouse to certain philosophies that could be considered somewhat “Liberal”…however, I am fully Catholic. I abide by the beliefs and tenets of the Church. And that includes being anti-Abortion. On the other hand, I am so “Conservative” in the vernacular that I can scare the wits out of neo-cons, who I believe to be complete and total “wusses”.
Please amend your language to something like “ultra left-wing demagogues” or something else.
I am neither Democrat or Republican…I’m actually registered as NPA (No Party Affiliation)…not even an “Independent”. But I can tell you this… I have many acquaintances who are Democrats who are better Americans than most, who are anti-abortion, and who regardless of their ages…some older than I, who would take up arms in a heartbeat to protect this country.
Please stop maligning people who are not “staunch republicans” carrying a card… They are no less American than anyone else, in fact…many are better “Americans”.
Thank you.
Please stop abusing the word “Liberal”!
In its proper context…as defined by the English language (properly) a Liberal is a good thing, whereas a Conservative is not. Please check Webster’s here: merriam-webster.com/
I myself espouse to certain philosophies that could be considered somewhat “Liberal”…however, I am fully Catholic. I abide by the beliefs and tenets of the Church. And that includes being anti-Abortion. On the other hand, I am so “Conservative” in the vernacular that I can scare the wits out of neo-cons, who I believe to be complete and total “wusses”.
Please amend your language to something like “ultra left-wing demagogues” or something else.
I am neither Democrat or Republican…I’m actually registered as NPA (No Party Affiliation)…not even an “Independent”. But I can tell you this… I have many acquaintances who are Democrats who are better Americans than most, who are anti-abortion, and who regardless of their ages…some older than I, who would take up arms in a heartbeat to protect this country.
Please stop maligning people who are not “staunch republicans” carrying a card… They are no less American than anyone else, in fact…many are better “Americans”.
Thank you.
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rikkk1958
Guest
I am glad you bring this kind of thread. If this is a true story, I do not think they are considered terrorists and if the US state dept. put them in the terrorist’s list they should take them off. It can be a technical error in their part. I do not see that they are a threat. Please give us a concrete fact that they are listed. Thanks.
Let me also take this opportunity to tell you that in our faith, free speech is welcome. These two nuns were just expressing their own self with their own understanding. Actually they are just following the word of Jesus that is to love one another. That war is not the answer. They are true disciples, and if people can be like them, we will all in peace with each other. If muslims will sow love in their teachings, things will be different but unfortunately your quran and hadiths expresses more of hatred than love.
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ralphinal
Guest
I would not disagree. In order to truly evaluate this, and any other civil disobediance situation, we must first ask if what is being protested is morally acceptable, or at least, morally neutral.
In the case of the War in Iraq (we must separate the two conflicts), that can be debated. However, is breaking into a military base and causing damage casting light on a morally reprehensable situation?
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RobHom
Guest
Ralph… I agree with you.
There is a proper thing known as civil disobedience, protests that are peaceful, wherein no-one is attacked, hurt, or killed, and property is not damaged or destroyed. It is in fact protected by the Constitution.
Christ Himself…said "Give unto Caesar what is Caesar’s, and give unto God what is God’s. While this related to the payment of taxes and tithes…it goes further to explain, and correct me if I am wrong, that we are obligated to obey the law of the land, yet at the same time… obey God. So the nexus in the matter is that we may protest something we see as immoral based on God’s word, yet we are obligated not to violate God’s Word.
The trespass and destruction of property is wrong, foolhardy, and in reality only serves to diminish their actions in that they will cause the other side to ratchet up their responses. Witness their being placed on a “terrorist watch list”…Now how many days, and hours, etc will they spend dealing with that? Diversionary tactics…and surely was done to discredit their motives and intent…no?
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ralphinal
Guest
Correct
I have no issue with that.
Perhaps. As someone pointed out earlier, there is a faction in America that has created a mentality that if you disagree about some issues, you are no longer a good American, and may, in fact, be treasonous. That said, if I were their Bishop, those two nuns would either be lock up in a convent or kicked out publically. No one in the Catholic CHurch should be a part of distruction of government property as a political statement.
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PaulDupre
Guest
Being on a terrorist watch list does not make one a terrorist. People get on those lists all the time for many crazy reasons. The 11 year-old son of conservative talk-radio host Michael Medved is on a terrorist watch list and gets pulled out of line at the airport every time they fly.
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Tsuwano
Guest
I don’t know if you have or not, but I hope you have. If you have, then you know that King makes the claim that Jesus himself was an extremist for the sake of love. As I said before, for a Christian to be known by the label of radical or extremist is not necessarily a bad thing. Secondly, I do not defend the actions of these nuns concerning their protests against the Iraq war or their trespassing against government property. What I object to is the assumption that they support abortion or have not worked against abortion merely on the evidence that they are protesting the war in Iraq, and the further assumptions that they are not good Christians or sisters because of that protest and it is not possible for them to be good Christians because, after all, they are “radicals.” If you disagree with their actions, fine, but at least find out what their motivations are before passing such severe judgement on them.
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RobHom
Guest
And one would mistakenly think that somewhere within that giant maelstrom of federal employees…someone would actually have two synapses fire simultaneously and realize someone screwed up and fix it… Or is that “expecting too much”.Dare I say it: Homeland Security = oxymoron.
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RobHom
Guest
Yes…there is a faction who has done that, and done so with nearly so great a ferocity that it borders on demanding blind obedience to the “Reich”. I’m a pretty moderate person, and for me to make that statement takes a lot…but I have encountered adherents to that “Reich”…and they live among us.
I would have little problem with your solution. Though I might be tempted to find better outlets for their energies…that would benefit both the Church and mankind.
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cathopologist
Guest
Well, to get to the source of an objection, one has to come prepared. Dominican or not.
When was the last time you were on the news, fighting for something you strongly believed in?
Did you?
Did you expect the Air Force to fly them to their destination?
Why didn’t you volunteer for the next beheading? It’s easy to judge from the comfort of your chair, isn’t it?
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