Testing my faith- Muslim reaction is hard to swallow

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Rolltide said:
I’ll repost this from another thread I answered:

When I was in college, I had a Turkish roommate who was Muslim and who has gone on to be one of my very best friends. He has travelled extensively with me throughout the US, and my family and I visited him for a month in Turkey. I have also on another occasion visited Morocco for five days. While I was there, I found the local population to be nothing but polite. In fact, if I had to judge my reaction in Turkey (in 1992), I’d say that the majority of the Turkish population loved Americans! I can tell you that my friend, his family and friends, and all of the other Muslims I know are very peaceful people. I will say that a major problem in Turkey is a huge difference in development between west and east. Istanbul and the Aegean coast is very western and developed, stable, peaceful, and accepting. The eastern frontier is very poor and still living in a pre-industrial age in many places. That ignorance and lack of education causes many of the problems. Remember, that Islam is a religion that is much akin to Protestantism. There is no central authority to regulate doctrine. It can be interpreted however someone chooses. Many people join the most radical form of Islam for the exact same reasons that ordinary people joined the Nazi party in the 1930s. They feel powerless, they have no jobs, and they blame the west for that. They are usually very young and can be influences. They are the Islamic version of Christian cults. How well does the Westboro Baptist Church represent Christianity, for example? What about David Koresh and the Branch Davidians? There are countless Christian cults that give us problems too. They just aren’t as widespread or as organized as they are in the Muslim world because we have far less poverty.
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Very informative post. But once, somewhere, I would like to see Muslims condemn the radical expressions of some of their fellow Muslims.
 
mary_bobo said:
Very informative post. But once, somewhere, I would like to see Muslims condemn the radical expressions of some of their fellow Muslims.
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Maybe there are some and it’s not being reported in the news because it’s a lot less exciting than some screaming fool calling for war and blowing stuff up?
 
proudnifi said:
Maybe there are some and it’s not being reported in the news because it’s a lot less exciting than some screaming fool calling for war and blowing stuff up?
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Of course. I find it fascinating the way some people are so contemptuous of the media’s relation to accuracy and fairness, and yet when it suits, they say ‘well, it’s not on the media, so it mustn’t be happening!’

Mike
 
brotherhrolf said:
Using this kind of logic, then it is not for me to discern if something is not offensive to neo-Nazis or the KKK. So, if they show up on your lawn and burn a cross, I’m sure you’ll be able to figure out how to make it right. Mon Dieu! Dios mios! No right, no wrong. Relativism taken to extremes.
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I’m not following you on your cross-burning analogy because Islam is a faith that has been respected by the Church. If you think that disrespect for Islam was what the Holy Father wanted you to take away from all of this, I believe you are terribly misguided.

Your asking me to find the part of a text that is offensive to Islam is not so simple. We all have a tough time seeing through the eyes of another; that doesn’t mean that the offense isn’t there. I frequently hear anti-Catholic rhetoric coming from fundamentalist Christians when others don’t hear it.
 
Thats the whole point… he didn’t cross the line… the Radical Muslims did… by showing how peaceful they aren’t. Once agian they are trrying to bully the world. We need not back down.
Thekla said:
My mom just said that the Holy Father stuck his foot in his mouth. We’re German Catholic and have a lot of men in the family with the same problem.

I believe in the Holy Father and I believe that he can make this right. He’s a smart guy and if he crossed a line, he’ll apologize for it and make amends. If he didn’t cross a line (and who are we to judge that) then he’ll still find a way to make it right.
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Jeffrey said:
Thats the whole point… he didn’t cross the line… the Radical Muslims did… by showing how peaceful they aren’t. Once agian they are trrying to bully the world. We need not back down.
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If you cross a line and later apologize, it’s not backing down. How you can know what is or is not offensive to the Muslim faith is beyond me, but then it’s not your call or mine.
 
He didn’t cross the line. He told the truth. How you cannot see that is beyond me.
Thekla said:
If you cross a line and later apologize, it’s not backing down. How you can know what is or is not offensive to the Muslim faith is beyond me, but then it’s not your call or mine.
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mary_bobo said:
Very informative post. But once, somewhere, I would like to see Muslims condemn the radical expressions of some of their fellow Muslims.
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Here’s a couple:

"Turkey’s top Islamic cleric, Religious Affairs Directorate head Ali Bardakoglu, welcomed the Vatican statement.

“He says that he respects Islam and didn’t want to hurt the feelings of Muslims. I find that a civilized position,” said Bardakoglu in an interview posted on the Web site of Germany’s Der Spiegel magazine."

and…

British Muslims sought to calm the situation.

““We welcome his apology and we hope now we can work together and build bridges. At the same time we would condemn all forms of violent demonstration,” Muhammad Umar, chairman of Britain’s Ramadhan Foundation, a youth organization, told Sky News.”
 
Thekla said:
I’m not following you on your cross-burning analogy because Islam is a faith that has been respected by the Church. If you think that disrespect for Islam was what the Holy Father wanted you to take away from all of this, I believe you are terribly misguided.

Your asking me to find the part of a text that is offensive to Islam is not so simple. We all have a tough time seeing through the eyes of another; that doesn’t mean that the offense isn’t there. I frequently hear anti-Catholic rhetoric coming from fundamentalist Christians when others don’t hear it.
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Did you actually read the Holy Father’s comments? I did. What part of the Holy Father’s lecture requesting dialogue with Islam did you fail to see?

Your approach is nothing more or less than cultural relativism. If the Klan decided to burn a cross on your lawn, would you take it as their right? I wouldn’t and I live in KKK country and no, even though I am white, I am Catholic…I think I know a little bit about anti-Catholcism.

There is nothing in the HF lecture which is antithetical to Isam - nothing. What? Should all papal lectures in the future be vetted by Islamacists? Much of what they (the Islamicists) say offends me deeply. Who is worried about my angst?
 
Rolltide said:
That ignorance and lack of education causes many of the problems. Remember, that Islam is a religion that is much akin to Protestantism. There is no central authority to regulate doctrine. It can be interpreted however someone chooses. Many people join the most radical form of Islam for the exact same reasons that ordinary people joined the Nazi party in the 1930s. They feel powerless, they have no jobs, and they blame the west for that. They are usually very young and can be influences. .
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Rolltide, I used to think that poverty and poor education was the cause, but look at the 911 terrorists–most of them came from middle class families and were college educated. In the West Bank and Gaza Bir Zeit University is the hotbed of radical extremism. Bin Laden is from one of the wealthiest families in Saudi Arabia.

I agree that there are plenty of peaceful Muslims, but the number of extremists is frightening and they aren’t all poor and disposessed.
 
proudnifi said:
Maybe there are some and it’s not being reported in the news because it’s a lot less exciting than some screaming fool calling for war and blowing stuff up?
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And maybe there are none because those who might want to, do not do it because they don’t want to have their wives and children beheaded before their eyes?
 
Thanks for all the responses here everyone.

I guess my problem is that I can and will Pray for Holy Fathers safety and protection now, I can and do pray for the Swiss Gaurds especially right now,
And all Catholics and Christians now, along with all those who are putting their butts on the line for us to enjoy our lives without Muslim control but-

I can not pray in good conscience for the Muslim radical reactors here now.

I know I can’t pray for Islam to be stopped, but I can hope for it. If I could pray for it I would. “Peaceful” or otherwise- I think it must be stopped.

I also pray for the many martyrs I feel will be on the horizion here en masse.

Personally, I think the issue here is the conflict I have about the Church saying they have a valid religion. I know that is not mature. I follow the Church and her teachings- but this one thing gets me.

I’ll admit it- I know it is a sin and borders on their idiocy- but I am sorely tempted to wish that a good old (Old Testament) Sodom and Gehmorrah thing would happen now. Somehow they just go away.

Then I wake up. It is so hard to turn the other cheek in light of burning effigies and death wishes for our Holy Father…

Oh well, it is something I hope will pass and I can get a grip on fast. I worry that if they do something else- anything else - I may loose all ability to be a good Christian in thought or word.

Thanks for the help, I do feel like I am less angry now. But not the same either.
 
bapcathluth said:
Rolltide, I used to think that poverty and poor education was the cause, but look at the 911 terrorists–most of them came from middle class families and were college educated. In the West Bank and Gaza Bir Zeit University is the hotbed of radical extremism. Bin Laden is from one of the wealthiest families in Saudi Arabia.

I agree that there are plenty of peaceful Muslims, but the number of extremists is frightening and they aren’t all poor and disposessed.
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Your point is well taken, and you reveal a truth, which is that the many of the prominent members of this movement are intellectuals who have money. The only thing more dangerous than a uneducated extremist is a highly intelligent, educated extremist. One thing that’s different about Al-Qaeda from the Nazis is that they have access to the internet. Now, disaffected but bright Muslims at universities, colleges, and high schools all over the world can read about their hateful message. This fragment of the group partially arises out of the same phenomenon that created the Columbine High School massacre. These students may come to a college highly impressionable, learn a great deal about the political shape of the world from an intelligent professor or imam, but with the details twisted to demonstrate international conspiracy and oppression of the Islamic faith. They may come from good middle-class Western homes, but have serious family problems. They may be rebellious youth. They may experience racism and isolation at their school. Through chat rooms, they can find a refuge with others who have experienced the same problem and, in some cases, plot revenge. There is a core of Muslim extremists that target this highly educated class, just as cult members targeted college students in the 1960s. They can then make use of their money and education to run their organization in a highly technical manner to deadly effect. For the perfect example of the type of person they’re trying to recruit, look at the California student who recently became the English speaking Al-Qaeda spokesman in their videos. Al-Qaeda looks for just these type of people for their operations. They are highly idealistic, highly impressionable, and even a small core, maybe only one or two hundred, become a propaganda tool to make them look mainstream and legitimate.

There is also the problem of groups like Hezbollah, which works like the Mafia. A highly illegal organization that uses violence and terrorism to achieve its aims, while spending money on a poor ethinc community that has been neglected by the mainstream government. The charity and services they provide legitimately help the locals, which then in turn support the group and look the other way. These good works make people see them as fighting the system, and many otherwise bright youth flock to their group.
 
Rolltide said:
I’ll repost this from another thread I answered:

When I was in college, I had a Turkish roommate who was Muslim and who has gone on to be one of my very best friends. He has travelled extensively with me throughout the US, and my family and I visited him for a month in Turkey. I have also on another occasion visited Morocco for five days. While I was there, I found the local population to be nothing but polite. In fact, if I had to judge my reaction in Turkey (in 1992), I’d say that the majority of the Turkish population loved Americans! I can tell you that my friend, his family and friends, and all of the other Muslims I know are very peaceful people. I will say that a major problem in Turkey is a huge difference in development between west and east. Istanbul and the Aegean coast is very western and developed, stable, peaceful, and accepting. The eastern frontier is very poor and still living in a pre-industrial age in many places. That ignorance and lack of education causes many of the problems. Remember, that Islam is a religion that is much akin to Protestantism. There is no central authority to regulate doctrine. It can be interpreted however someone chooses. Many people join the most radical form of Islam for the exact same reasons that ordinary people joined the Nazi party in the 1930s. They feel powerless, they have no jobs, and they blame the west for that. They are usually very young and can be influences. They are the Islamic version of Christian cults. How well does the Westboro Baptist Church represent Christianity, for example? What about David Koresh and the Branch Davidians? There are countless Christian cults that give us problems too. They just aren’t as widespread or as organized as they are in the Muslim world because we have far less poverty.
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But the terrorists in the foiled London plot weren’t living in poverty, and they were educated.

Bin Laden himself is wealthy, and the 9/11 terrorists were actually quite an educated bunch.

It seems a stretch to say that the problem is an economic or educational one.
 
Peter_DiMitri said:
But the terrorists in the foiled London plot weren’t living in poverty, and they were educated.

Bin Laden himself is wealthy, and the 9/11 terrorists were actually quite an educated bunch.

It seems a stretch to say that the problem is an economic or educational one.
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See my above post. In summary, the leadership and main overseas operatives are highly educated, disaffected, and young. The core of their support, however, arrives from the impoverished and uneducated masses.
 
Rolltide said:
Your point is well taken, and you reveal a truth, which is that the many of the prominent members of this movement are intellectuals who have money. The only thing more dangerous than a uneducated extremist is a highly intelligent, educated extremist. One thing that’s different about Al-Qaeda from the Nazis is that they have access to the internet. Now, disaffected but bright Muslims at universities, colleges, and high schools all over the world can read about their hateful message. This fragment of the group partially arises out of the same phenomenon that created the Columbine High School massacre. These students may come to a college highly impressionable, learn a great deal about the political shape of the world from an intelligent professor or imam, but with the details twisted to demonstrate international conspiracy and oppression of the Islamic faith. They may come from good middle-class Western homes, but have serious family problems. They may be rebellious youth. They may experience racism and isolation at their school. Through chat rooms, they can find a refuge with others who have experienced the same problem and, in some cases, plot revenge. There is a core of Muslim extremists that target this highly educated class, just as cult members targeted college students in the 1960s. They can then make use of their money and education to run their organization in a highly technical manner to deadly effect. For the perfect example of the type of person they’re trying to recruit, look at the California student who recently became the English speaking Al-Qaeda spokesman in their videos. Al-Qaeda looks for just these type of people for their operations. They are highly idealistic, highly impressionable, and even a small core, maybe only one or two hundred, become a propaganda tool to make them look mainstream and legitimate.

There is also the problem of groups like Hezbollah, which works like the Mafia. A highly illegal organization that uses violence and terrorism to achieve its aims, while spending money on a poor ethinc community that has been neglected by the mainstream government. The charity and services they provide legitimately help the locals, which then in turn support the group and look the other way. These good works make people see them as fighting the system, and many otherwise bright youth flock to their group. (Hezbollah even pays for some of these youth to go to college.)
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Rolltide said:
See my above post. In summary, the leadership and main overseas operatives are highly educated, disaffected, and young. The core of their support, however, arrives from the impoverished and uneducated masses.
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They are very well educated … in the Koran. Unfortunately, their education does not leave them with marketable skills. AND, the countries where they come from lack “markets”, having only command economies. So, if they can, they migrate to the United States.

But the fact is that Chapter 9 of the Koran commands them to kill infidels, to spread Islam by the sword. And that is all they know because that is what they have been taught. Correction: not “taught”, but IMMERSED in. This is all they know.
 
gilliam said:
The Rev. Robert Taft, a specialist in Islamic affairs at Rome’s Pontifical Oriental Institute, said it was unlikely the pope miscalculated how some Muslims would receive his speech.

“The message he is sending is very, very clear,” Taft said. “Violence in the name of faith is never acceptable in any religion and that (the pope) considers it his duty to challenge Islam and anyone else on this.”

signonsandiego.com/news/world/20060915-1401-popeandislam.html
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Truly good to read that - violence in the name of faith is never acceptable …

A message hopefully that would be heard loud and clear… and echo down through the hearts…of all who choose to use violence , ’ in the name of faith- to bring good ’

violence to the bodies in the form of life destroying chemicals …surgeries …

violenece to the minds and bodies through mind and soul destroying programs and porno …

violence in words, from parents , teachers , husbands , wives, children … that are more harsh than it need to be …

And our Love and adoration to The Holy Spirit , who speaks to us …in The Pope …who cares for our moslem brethren too …a people held under fear …not been able to grasp The Love of The Father …and reminding them - they too are the children …of Mariam whom they relate to …the gentle woman …

May her prayers and presence bring on the wisdom , to open hearts !
 
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