Texas man wants pregnant wife off life support despite state laws

[adrift]

Baby Born To Brain-Dead Mother 3 Months After Woman’s Declared Death

After a pregnant woman arrived at a hospital in Hungary with a cerebral hemorrhage, doctors performed an emergency intracranial surgery to try to save the life of the 31-year-old and her unborn child. Two days passed, and the woman was declared brain-dead. But, it’s what happened next that’s astonishing.

The woman’s family and doctors had to make a choice: Should they keep the mother on life support so the 15-week-old fetus would have a shot at life? The answer was yes, and three months later the baby boy was born to a brain-dead mother at 27 weeks.

 

[St_Francis]

Baby Born To Brain-Dead Mother 3 Months After Woman’s Declared Death

This has happened successfully, but not always. A study found 30 cases where this was attempted and information about 19 results. Of the 19 results, 12 babies were born alive.

Since I read that, I did find out about a case in which the baby was successfully delivered but who needed surgery (as a result of premature birth) which she did not survive. I mention this because I do not know how this would have been listed on the study.

And of the 11 cases where the results were unknown, I can only imagine that most of them failed.

Thus, this “treatment” alone is not yet consistently successful.

 

[oldcelt]

Are you kidding?? This woman has been dead for two months and her body will start to show signs of decomposition if it hasn’t already! You don’t think attempting to bring a fetus to term in a months old cadaver constitutes extraordinary means??

I certainly do, and I find it nauseating that this poor woman and her husband are being used by forces who most likely don’t even know them.

 

[SMGS127]

I certainly do, and I find it nauseating that this poor woman and her husband are being used by forces who most likely don’t even know them.

Are you suggesting that one must personally know someone in order to fight for their life?

 

[Lochias]

You, OTOH, are calling fulfillment of the father’s request “murder.” Have you seen the medical records? Were you there when the doctors discussed the prognosis?

The Church teaches that withdrawal of medical treatment is legitimate *and not murder *under certain circumstances. *From what incomplete information we have, *this case may well far under those criteria.

Since we do not have sufficient knowledge of this particular case, we cannot make an ultimate judgement like “This is murder,” as you are doing. .

It’s totally murder. It’s a human life. It’s a human life. It’s a human life.

(Is it sinking in, yet? It’s a human life.)

Please look at the present time and tell us what is known of the baby’s condition and prognosis, and then what you say may have some merit.

It’s a human life. It’s a human life. It’s a human life.

 

[Lochias]

For a Christian, dead does not mean finished…caput. So my argument does have merit.

I don’t have to prove anything. God allowed the woman to die - I don’t see that anyone is compelled to fight to prevent nature taking its course, using extraordinary, experimental means. God is the master of life and death, not us. To me, this is equivalent to those who seek fertility by any means. Some things are just not meant to be…

God gave us the knowledge and means to allow the baby to grow and be born.

“Letting nature take its course” is a rubbish statement. We could completely abandon all medicine along those lines, and “let nature take its course.”

Got cancer? Sorry, gotta let nature take its course.

Tooth need pulled? Too bad, nature’s gonna take its course, bucko.

Chance to save your baby? Nah, we’re gonna let nature take its course.

IT’S A HUMAN LIFE, IT’S A HUMAN LIFE, IT’S A HUMAN LIFE.

 

[Lochias]

Are you kidding?? This woman has been dead for two months and her body will start to show signs of decomposition if it hasn’t already! You don’t think attempting to bring a fetus to term in a months old cadaver constitutes extraordinary means??

Her body is alive, and her womb is healthy. Nothing extraordinary about a baby growing in the womb, nothing at all.

It’s a human life, it’s a human life, it’s a human life.

 

[St_Francis]

It’s totally murder. It’s a human life. It’s a human life. It’s a human life.

(Is it sinking in, yet? It’s a human life.)

Do you honestly believe that every time someone dies that it is murder?

You are definitely saying that in this case, it would be murder. But you don’t know all that facts. You are accusing a man of murder–this is a very serious accusation, and you are making it despite 1. not knowing all the facts, and 2. that this case is serious enough to fall under guidelines the Church has drawn up for cases like this.

Withdrawal of extra-ordinary treatment which is burdensome is **not **murder. It is a recognition of our human limitations–This is what the Church teaches.

Beyond what the Church teaches, we cannot go. If there is a case where a child is born with Down’s Syndrome and the parents refuse a very simple treatment like antibiotics, you might have a point. But this is not a case like that.

It’s a human life. It’s a human life. It’s a human life.

And there are times when we cannot keep human life alive. It is very sad when that happens, but it does happen.

 

[adrift]

And there are times when we cannot keep human life alive. It is very sad when that happens, but it does happen.

It happens but do we have an obligation to try? Is this child’s life not worth the effort? It has succeeded before so it isn’t beyond reasonable expectation that it would succeed again. The odds against it does not seem a reasonable reason not to try. The question would be if you were to give advice to this “father” would you say give life a chance or you don’t have to use extra-ordinary treatment which is burdensome to you?

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

This has happened successfully, but not always. A study found 30 cases where this was attempted and information about 19 results. Of the 19 results, 12 babies were born alive.

Since I read that, I did find out about a case in which the baby was successfully delivered but who needed surgery (as a result of premature birth) which she did not survive. I mention this because I do not know how this would have been listed on the study.

And of the 11 cases where the results were unknown, I can only imagine that most of them failed.

Thus, this “treatment” alone is not yet consistently successful.

I believe the article you posted had a breakdown of very young babies at around same age as this 1. All of these babies died in utero.

Brain death could occur due to trauma to the brain. I would guess other functions in the body would remain in these scenarios.

This woman had a cardiac episode. Her stopped heart caused the brain death. Were her other functions severely impacted?

I’m confused also on why even attempt to restart her heart after such a long period without oxygen.

 

[St_Francis]

I believe the article you posted had a breakdown of very young babies at around same age as this 1. All of these babies died in utero.

Brain death could occur due to trauma to the brain. I would guess other functions in the body would remain in these scenarios.

In the threads about Jahi MacMath, a poster kindly explained how some of this works. When brain death occurs, all the bodily functions regulated by the brain stop. This includes breathing.

The heart, however, is not regulated by the brain. If it receives oxygen, it keeps going, tho for how long is unclear to me, as decomposition of other parts of the body are merely slowed, not stopped.

This woman had a cardiac episode. Her stopped heart caused the brain death. Were her other functions severely impacted?

Those functions regulated by the brain no longer function.

I’m confused also on why even attempt to restart her heart after such a long period without oxygen.

I think that there are several components to this. One is that testing must occur before a person is declared brain-dead. It seems to have been unknown how long she was not breathing, so when she was brought in, her condition was unclear. Naturally, they would treat her aggressively then, in the hope of saving her life. They may have gone further than they usually would have because the law mandates a continuation of treatment for women who are pregnant.

 

[vz71]

It happens but do we have an obligation to try? Is this child’s life not worth the effort? It has succeeded before so it isn’t beyond reasonable expectation that it would succeed again. The odds against it does not seem a reasonable reason not to try. The question would be if you were to give advice to this “father” would you say give life a chance or you don’t have to use extra-ordinary treatment which is burdensome to you?

My thoughts exactly.

It is not an unreasonable thing to try to save the life that is there.
The anticipated outcome would be a life. Not a delay of death.

Unless we wish to re-write the concept of accepting we cannot stop death.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I was with my Godmother when she died. She exhaled her last breath. We realized she had stopped breathing. The nurse was called in. She used a stethescope and did not hear a heartbeat.

Then the time of death was noted. No extra tests were done to determine brain death. Lack of cardiac function has tradionally been a legitamate way to determine death. The brain dies with no oxygen.

So if the father’s testimony is correct, mom’s heart stopped multiple times including up to an hour before being found by her husband. He was not able to get a heartbeat. What happened to baby? How oxygen deprived was baby?

 

[adrift]

I was with my Godmother when she died. She exhaled her last breath. We realized she had stopped breathing. The nurse was called in. She used a stethescope and did not hear a heartbeat.

Then the time of death was noted. No extra tests were done to determine brain death. Lack of cardiac function has tradionally been a legitamate way to determine death. The brain dies with no oxygen.

So if the father’s testimony is correct, mom’s heart stopped multiple times including up to an hour before being found by her husband. He was not able to get a heartbeat. What happened to baby? How oxygen deprived was baby?

What difference does it make? In similar situations where the children survived healthy children were produced. What matters is the baby is alive and might have a chance to be baptized. The odds are very much against this child made more so by those who just want the baby to die.

I had a Lamaze teacher who contracted measles while pregnant. The prevailing “wisdom” was to abort. She chose not to and her baby was healthy and unaffected. You can do all the what ifs but a human life is valuable no matter what handicap they might have. It is macabre to me that anyone would consider it better to be dead than handicapped.

 

[vz71]

What difference does it make?

The difference is the baby could be damaged beyond saving already.
And we may not expect all efforts to produce a live birth.

Accepting that we cannot stop death requires we know how close to death we are.

We need further tests to know viability. But that requires time, and means keeping the machines running until we can test.

 

[adrift]

The difference is the baby could be damaged beyond saving already.
And we may not expect all efforts to produce a live birth.

Accepting that we cannot stop death requires we know how close to death we are.

We need further tests to know viability. But that requires time, and means keeping the machines running until we can test.

I would expect that if the baby was beyond saving than death of the baby would have already occurred.

The pregnancy hasn’t progressed enough to achieve the state of viability. 24 weeks is the normal definition of viability which has not been reached.

 

[St_Francis]

I was with my Godmother when she died. She exhaled her last breath. We realized she had stopped breathing. The nurse was called in. She used a stethescope and did not hear a heartbeat.

Then the time of death was noted. No extra tests were done to determine brain death. Lack of cardiac function has tradionally been a legitamate way to determine death. The brain dies with no oxygen.

People who are closer to death are treated (medically) differently than those who are young. A man who comes in with a heart attack at the age of 35 will be treated much more thoroughly than a man of 95.

Your Godmother was already in the hospital and the doctors had a good understanding of her condition–much different from a young person just arrived by ambulance.

So if the father’s testimony is correct, mom’s heart stopped multiple times including up to an hour before being found by her husband. He was not able to get a heartbeat. What happened to baby? How oxygen deprived was baby?

This is one of the big questions. We ourselves know nothing of the baby’s condition, not even how much the doctors can know. However, the doctors and the father know whatever there is that they can know, and are presumably basing their decisions on this information, to which we are not privy.

I also note that the hospital is not fighting the father’s action very vigorously… Given that the CEO of the hospital is very pro-life, this leads me to consider that the baby is not doing well.

 

[YADA]

Is there a written document regarding this woman’s wishes - or only her husbands verbal statements?

From all I read - the only evidence of what her wishes are regarding life sustaining care are verbal - hearsay evidence… that was backed up by what they had witnessed with their having discussed this because of their work as EMTs …

But - knowing that these*** ‘directives’*** need to be written and witnessed to be valid - along with that fact being something EMTs - like all health care professionals - would know and fully understand - why does there seem to be no written/witnessed health care directive executed by this woman? …

 

[estesbob]

My definition of a"dilemma" is when you look aft all the options and none of them are good.This in definitely a dilemma. IMO when faced with a situation you always come down on the side of life.Always.

 

[adrift]

My definition of a"dilemma" is when you look aft all the options and none of them are good.This in definitely a dilemma. IMO when faced with a situation you always come down on the side of life.Always.