tg life styles

[Guar_Fan]

I think the National Catholic Bioethics Center article that Fix has posted is filled with unfortunate misunderstandings of transsexualism. Certainly many of the points, and the experts who support them, are outside the mainstream of current science regarding transsexualism.

That the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has a secret document which declares Sexual Reassignment Surgery to be invalid is unfortunate. I think the conclusion they reached is harsh, and in error. But the document is not available for review. I pray that the Vatican will come to a clearer understanding of the nature of transsexualism and how transsexuals fit into God’s plan.

 

[bones_IV]

Lynn D

I suggest you read the following from EWTN.

link

link

 

[bones_IV]

Guar Fan:

I think the National Catholic Bioethics Center article that Fix has posted is filled with unfortunate misunderstandings of transsexualism. Certainly many of the points, and the experts who support them, are outside the mainstream of current science regarding transsexualism.

That the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has a secret document which declares Sexual Reassignment Surgery to be invalid is unfortunate. I think the conclusion they reached is harsh, and in error. But the document is not available for review. I pray that the Vatican will come to a clearer understanding of the nature of transsexualism and how transsexuals fit into God’s plan.

The Church can never alter her stance on moral issues like this. To say otherwise is modernism.

 

[Guar_Fan]

bones_IV:

The Church can never alter her stance on moral issues like this. To say otherwise is modernism.

Because the document is secret, we can not review it, but I believe it was based upon a faulty understanding of science. As our understanding of science grows, it is acceptable to clarify the message that the Church is delivering.

Regarding your first EWTN link, Fr.Stephen F. Torraco states:

These people seek to have the sexual organs of the sex in which they have functioned removed and to have some artificial representation of the organs and hormonal system of the opposite sex put in place.

Fr. Torraco is failing to distinguish between sex and gender. Sex refers to reproductive organs and structures, gender refers to our identity of being male or female. Transsexuals are born with a gender identity which is at odds with their sex. Transsexuals seek to live according to the gender they were born with, because gender can not be changed.

Regarding your second EWTN link, Fr. John Echert writes:

To act out sexually in any manner other than heterosexual marriage is immoral, and in any manner other than male and female is an abomination contrary to nature, as well.

Precisely. This is why many transsexuals seek Sexual reassignment surgery (SRS). It is to allow those with female gender to live as women, and those with male gender to live as men.

 

[bones_IV]

Precisely. This is why many transsexuals seek Sexual reassignment surgery (SRS). It is to allow those with female gender to live as women, and those with male gender to live as men.

Baloney1! I’m sorry that you do not accept the word of God word for word and you are not Catholic not even Christian.

 

[Neithan]

Timidity:

Of course Leviticus says that crossdressers should be put to death, but I’m always confused by the cafeteria-style approach we have towards the laws of Moses

Mosaic Legislation

Moral Aspect of Divine Law

Lynn-D:

There is strong indications from research done by the Dutch on the hypothalamus and further supported evidence by Goren presented to an Australian court to the benefit of a transsexual that there is findings of chromosomal and biological links to transsexualism.

Do you have any sources (links, books, articles etc.) on this? I’d be interested in reading them!

From what I understand, one cannot truly change their sex. Although sexual ‘reassignment’ surgery can certainly make it appear so, the DNA of an individual is stamped with either XX or XY chromosomes, indicating them as female or male, respectively. Any ‘gender incongruity’ felt in a person is a psychological matter, and it may even have physical consequences on the development of the brain, but the actual sex of a human being is ‘hard-coded’ in the womb.

The vast majority of Hermaphrodites are either male (XY) or female (XX) in chromosomal composition but due to fetal hormonal complications, their genitalia were deformed at birth. Only in extremely rare cases does a person or animal have an XX/XY even split, or an XO anomaly (even more rare).
Why do these mutations occur in nature? We simply live in an imperfect physical world. I believe the Church is correct in declaring sexual *reassignment *surgery invalid, as they cannot truly change the ‘hard-wired’ sexual composition of a person’s DNA, and thus their bodies are still basically male or female, regardless of their outer appearance. In the case of true hermaphrodites, however… I would be very interested in reading/hearing the Church’s position on what should be done, especially if a 46-46 XX-XY split individual develops mentally into the opposite sex to which the Doctors assigned him/her at birth!

One of the most profound insights of (in blessed memory) Pope John Paul II’s Theology of the Body is the firm assertion that our bodies are just as much a part of who we are as our spirits. The soul is the union of spirit and body. Catholic theology has always taught the moderate dualism of spirit and matter, and that the human soul is the *form *of the body, intimately united to it. Spirit and body interact and effect one another.

It is very Protestant, or even pagan, to believe that you can be ‘trapped in your body’ as a different soul, as if only your soul is truly ‘who you are’ and your body a deformed piece of organic clothing. It is just as much a part of you as the mind within it. The fact of the resurrection, as opposed to reincarnation, demonstrates the worthiness of our individual bodies. Flesh is not bad or evil, it is simply fallen, or broken, tainted by the effects of Original Sin. One of these effects is the rupture of the perfect harmony which existed in Adam between his body and his spirit.

It is important to remember that no human since Adam and Eve with the exceptions of Jesus and Mary has perfect harmony of spirit with body! This is the (fallen) human condition. This is very powerfully exemplified in those with transsexual disorders and especially hermaphrodites. But the church has always taught that we must embrace our bodies as temples of the holy spirit, and conquer our fleshly shortcomings with our spiritual faculties. Mortifications of the flesh are not aimed at changing the nature of our bodies to suit our desires but for purposes of penance or conquering temptations. In any case, any kind of mortification which would alter the function of our bodies is strictly prohibited (priests may not castrate themselves to better practice celibacy) as this is mutiliation, and contrary to Natural Law. Sex-reassignment surgery cannot even be hidden under the heading of mortification, since it is a result of tempation, not an effort to fight it. It is in every case a mutilation and is rightly condemned.

As with all our brothers and sisters in Christ, and the whole human family, those with transsexual disorders should in no way be judged (judge the sin, but not the sinner!!), rather we owe them our fervent charity and prayers.

 

[Guar_Fan]

Neithan:

Originally Posted by Lynn-D
There is strong indications from research done by the Dutch on the hypothalamus and further supported evidence by Goren presented to an Australian court to the benefit of a transsexual that there is findings of chromosomal and biological links to transsexualism.

Do you have any sources (links, books, articles etc.) on this? I’d be interested in reading them!

I am sure that Lynn-D will get around to it, but in the meantime you might care to read:
Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus

A study of children with genital abnormalities whose doctors determined a sex for them at birth (and did reassignment surgery at the time) suggests that gender is not determined by hormones or upbringing but is largely determined in the womb.
Discordant Sexual Identity in Some Genetic Males with Cloacal
Exstrophy Assigned to Female Sex at Birth

Any ‘gender incongruity’ felt in a person is a psychological matter, and it may even have physical consequences on the development of the brain, but the actual sex of a human being is ‘hard-coded’ in the womb.

We need to be careful not to confuse sex and gender. Gender is most likely determined in the womb, and it is possible to have a gender identity that is at odds with that person’s sex.

The vast majority of Hermaphrodites are either male (XY) or female (XX) in chromosomal composition but due to fetal hormonal complications, their genitalia were deformed at birth. Only in extremely rare cases does a person or animal have an XX/XY even split, or an XO anomaly (even more rare).

Yes, and we need to be clear that transsexual and intersex conditions (based upon chromosomal abnormalities) are separate conditions.

In any case, any kind of mortification which would alter the function of our bodies is strictly prohibited (priests may not castrate themselves to better practice celibacy) as this is mutiliation, and contrary to Natural Law.

SRS is not self-mortification. It is an attempt to correct a birth defect.

As with all our brothers and sisters in Christ, and the whole human family, those with transsexual disorders should in no way be judged (judge the sin, but not the sinner!!), rather we owe them our fervent charity and prayers.

On this I agree with you whole-heartedly.

 

[bones_IV]

Guar Fan:

Because the document is secret, we can not review it, but I believe it was based upon a faulty understanding of science. As our understanding of science grows, it is acceptable to clarify the message that the Church is delivering.

Regarding your first EWTN link, Fr.Stephen F. Torraco states:

Fr. Torraco is failing to distinguish between sex and gender. Sex refers to reproductive organs and structures, gender refers to our identity of being male or female. Transsexuals are born with a gender identity which is at odds with their sex. Transsexuals seek to live according to the gender they were born with, because gender can not be changed.

Regarding your second EWTN link, Fr. John Echert writes:

Precisely. This is why many transsexuals seek Sexual reassignment surgery (SRS). It is to allow those with female gender to live as women, and those with male gender to live as men.

What Fr. John Echert and Fr. Toracco stated is infallible doctrine.

 

[bones_IV]

Irresponsible statements like yours Gaur Fan demand proof. You have none. As easy as it is to make affirmations, giving documentation and proof is something else isn’t it? The Da Vinci Code to me is a perfect example of this because it takes legends, myths and stories and try to present them as fact. I got news for you, doesn’t work that way. You can’t pick and choose which doctrines you don’t want to believe. God didn’t give us the ten suggestions, he gave us the Ten Commandments. Nature (God) doesn’t error. He creates our sexual organs and gender which accompanies them. He makes no mistakes. We humans are capable of error. You are a perfect example of someone who extols all modern science but finds God often mistaken.
I can’t make you see the truth, just simply presenting it to you as best I can.

 

[fix]

Guar Fan:

I think the National Catholic Bioethics Center article that Fix has posted is filled with unfortunate misunderstandings of transsexualism. Certainly many of the points, and the experts who support them, are outside the mainstream of current science regarding transsexualism.

That the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has a secret document which declares Sexual Reassignment Surgery to be invalid is unfortunate. I think the conclusion they reached is harsh, and in error. But the document is not available for review. I pray that the Vatican will come to a clearer understanding of the nature of transsexualism and how transsexuals fit into God’s plan.

Without any fixed position on what is given in human nature, any manipulation of it can be defended as legitimate. A practice that appears to give people what they want—and what some of them are prepared to clamor for—turns out to be difficult to combat with ordinary professional experience and wisdom. Even controlled trials or careful follow-up studies to ensure that the practice itself is not damaging are often resisted and the results rejected.5

Each cell of a person’s body contains chromosomes which identify that individual as either male or female. It is not simply an issue of different genitals. Before birth, prenatal hormones shape the brains of boys to be different than those of girls.6 Mutilating surgery and hormone treatments can create the appearance of a male or female body, but it cannot change the underlying reality. It is not possible to change a person’s sex.

In promoting the truth about the human person, the Church is on the side of science when it proclaims that it is not possible to change a person’s sex. Therefore, persons who have undergone “sex change” procedures may not marry or be ordained.7 A man who is surgically altered to resemble a woman may not marry a man, and a woman with a male appearance may not be ordained a priest.

Unfortunately, the promotion of “sex change” operations has decreased investigation into prevention and therapy for those suffering from gender dysphoria. However, a number of mental health professionals work with and do help such individuals.

ncbcenter.org/em/0510-1.aspx

These issues go to the heart of the modern problem with much of science. Areas like psychiatry and psychology usually start from the position there is no absolute truth and then take off in any direction. This is why we have “experts” claiming immoral acts are healthy and good. We only have to look to abortion, contraception, same sex disorder, masturbation, etc to see these things are accepted and thought of as reasonable and “science” is used to foist such nonsense on an uncritical public.

 

[Guar_Fan]

Okay, lets take a look at that large quote from the National Catholic Bioethics Center.

Even controlled trials or careful follow-up studies to ensure that the practice itself is not damaging are often resisted and the results rejected.5

Yes! We must be careful that we cite good, scientifiic articles. This is why I supplied two good studies in my last post.

Each cell of a person’s body contains chromosomes which identify that individual as either male or female. It is not simply an issue of different genitals. Before birth, prenatal hormones shape the brains of boys to be different than those of girls.6

Yes! And if you read the first study that I cited in my last post (Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus), you will know that it is the exposure to fetal hormones which is believed to account for the difference in transsexual brain structures…

In promoting the truth about the human person, the Church is on the side of science when it proclaims that it is not possible to change a person’s sex.

We may be in a area of splitting hairs. It is true that SRS doesn’t provide reproductive biology (at least not yet). But it can provide realistic genitalia. (at least for male to female transsexuals). But I suspect that the Church’s position is really that humans can not change their gender, and on that I agree.

Therefore, persons who have undergone “sex change” procedures may not marry or be ordained.7

This indeed the conclusion of the secret document issued by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. As I mentioned before, it is regrettable that the document is not reviewable by the public.

However, a number of mental health professionals work with and do help such individuals.

The NCBC article then goes on to give two anecdotes of people with emotional problems who may have never been transsexual. Its hard to say without knowing more about their lives.

I am all in favor of resolving psychological problems, and imagine that it would be very helpful to do so before attempting to change their sex. In fact, the Standards of Care for transsexuals involves lengthy psychological counselling and that one of the tasks is “To accurately diagnose any co-morbid psychiatric conditions and see to their appropriate treatment”.
symposion.com/ijt/soc_2001/soc_04.htm

Fix:

These issues go to the heart of the modern problem with much of science. Areas like psychiatry and psychology usually start from the position there is no absolute truth and then take off in any direction. .

The article you cited does indeed start with a conclusion (the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith’s document), and then look for evidence to support that conclusion. I don’t think the author did a very good job, and if this article is any indication of the quality of NCBC work, then my opinion of that organization has been lowered.

 

[fix]

Guar Fan:

Okay, lets take a look at that large quote from the National Catholic Bioethics Center.

Yes! We must be careful that we cite good, scientifiic articles. This is why I supplied two good studies in my last post.

Yes! And if you read the first study that I cited in my last post (Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus), you will know that it is the exposure to fetal hormones which is believed to account for the difference in transsexual brain structures…

We may be in a area of splitting hairs. It is true that SRS doesn’t provide reproductive biology (at least not yet). But it can provide realistic genitalia. (at least for male to female transsexuals). But I suspect that the Church’s position is really that humans can not change their gender, and on that I agree.

This indeed the conclusion of the secret document issued by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. As I mentioned before, it is regrettable that the document is not reviewable by the public.

The NCBC article then goes on to give two anecdotes of people with emotional problems who may have never been transsexual. Its hard to say without knowing more about their lives.

I am all in favor of resolving psychological problems, and imagine that it would be very helpful to do so before attempting to change their sex. In fact, the Standards of Care for transsexuals involves lengthy psychological counselling and that one of the tasks is “To accurately diagnose any co-morbid psychiatric conditions and see to their appropriate treatment”.
symposion.com/ijt/soc_2001/soc_04.htm

The article you cited does indeed start with a conclusion (the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith’s document), and then look for evidence to support that conclusion. I don’t think the author did a very good job, and if this article is any indication of the quality of NCBC work, then my opinion of that organization has been lowered.

As I implied in my previous post many in science start from the point there is no truth and come to conclusions that violate God’s will. You have provided no data that is absolutely accurate or fully explains why your position is reasonable.

If the choice is secular scientists that accept deviant behavior as normal verses the Church founded and guided by our Lord
then I stand with God.

 

[Lynn-D]

  I find this discussion getting to its end because some are guided by facts and some will ignore them. I would never take science as a God like substitute for God's word. I do listen to those that are given a brain to examine and explain some of those mysteries that exist in this world and unexplained in at least my ear by God.  
 Some in here will read the dictates of religious articles and the secret policies of the church and take from them blindly. Understand please that without the congregate being able to study a document for it value in faith we must assume that we are to follow it without question. Sorry, but God gave me a brain and sometimes I need to question. Heck, in school I often questioned the nuns and the visiting priests and even disagreed then on some church teachings. As an example I could not understand a nun saying that only Catholics would go straight to heaven when they died and if they were without sin but a Protestant girlfriend that I was very close to would under the same condition be denied. I questioned that and thankfully that is not today's church teaching. But it was a question that I had the right to ask.
 We should never take life as being simple. It is not. God gave us a brain and the ability to use it for the betterment of man. He gave us difficulties as well, medical and emotional, and that too He expected us the address as best we could. We would not be fulfilling God's purpose for us if we simply accepted things for what they are rather than what and how they could be made better. The topic of this subject I think might fall into just that concept.

(continued)

 

[Lynn-D]

(part 2, continued)
I thank Guar Fan for his valuable contribution to this subject. He posted links that I have also and I think they serve the request of those who asked for information. I will clarify one particular paragraph if you would be patient and I will also post another link that might help simplify the debate and answer the questions a bit more clearer than medical discourses seem to be able to do for the average layperson. OK.
Fix please forgive me but I, unlike you, am not able to accept things as being black or white. Man was given a brain and the means to make life better for mankind, emotionally and physically, and that I firmly believe is Gods plan. I think research and scientific study are in keeping with that intent and their possible conclusions in the benefit of man are I believe expected by God. I unlike some can not speak for Him but He would not waste the process He imbedded in us to the simplicities of just living. Heck a fish can do that.
Thank you all for not allowing this discussion to become an angry diatribe.
Please read the following I took from the link provided by Guar Fan and then perhaps
access the following link giving a clear understanding of transsexualism:
kaffeine.freeuk.com/korner/bluboox/tears.htm

The heterosexual men showed strong nuclear AR-ir in both brain regions (Tables 1[file:///C:/icons/fig-up.gif](file:///C:/Program Files/Common Files/Microsoft Shared/Stationery/#T1) and 3[file:///C:/icons/fig-up.gif](file:///C:/Program Files/Common Files/Microsoft Shared/Stationery/#T3) and Fig. 1A[file:///C:/icons/fig-up.gif](file:///C:/Program Files/Common Files/Microsoft Shared/Stationery/#F1)). In contrast, the women revealed much less intense labeling in the nucleus of neurons of the LMN and MMN (Tables 1[file:///C:/icons/fig-up.gif](file:///C:/Program Files/Common Files/Microsoft Shared/Stationery/#T1) and 3[file:///C:/icons/fig-up.gif](file:///C:/Program Files/Common Files/Microsoft Shared/Stationery/#T3) and Fig. 2B[file:///C:/icons/fig-down.gif](file:///C:/Program Files/Common Files/Microsoft Shared/Stationery/#F2)). This sex difference was statistically significant for nuclear staining in both areas (P < 0.05). The homosexual men showed a similar staining to that of the heterosexual men for both areas (P > 0.2) with a more moderate staining in the MMN (Tables 1[file:///C:/icons/fig-up.gif](file:///C:/Program Files/Common Files/Microsoft Shared/Stationery/#T1) and 3[file:///C:/icons/fig-up.gif](file:///C:/Program Files/Common Files/Microsoft Shared/Stationery/#T3) and Fig. 1C[file:///C:/icons/fig-up.gif](file:///C:/Program Files/Common Files/Microsoft Shared/Stationery/#F1)). Women differed significantly from homosexual men in nuclear AR-ir in both the MMN and LMN (P < 0.05).** The castrated male-to-female transsexual group had a lack of nuclear staining in both brain areas, but had cytoplasmic labeling in the LMN and MNN (Tables 1**[file:///C:/icons/fig-up.gif](file:///C:/Program Files/Common Files/Microsoft Shared/Stationery/#T1)** and 3**[file:///C:/icons/fig-up.gif](file:///C:/Program Files/Common Files/Microsoft Shared/Stationery/#T3)** and Fig. 2B**[file:///C:/icons/fig-down.gif](file:///C:/Program Files/Common Files/Microsoft Shared/Stationery/#F2)). This group was statistically different in the LMN from the heterosexual and homosexual men group (P < 0.05) and similar to that in women (P > 0.5). The castrated male-to-female transsexual group had significantly less nuclear AR-ir in the MMN than the heterosexual male group (P < 0.05). This difference showed only a trend when compared with homosexual men (P = 0.10). When compared with women, the castrated male-to-female transsexual group did clearly not differ from women in the MMN (P > 0.7).

---

Thank you all,
Lynn-D

In God I am blessed

 

[Lynn-D]

Neithan, you made an assumption of DNA classifying either simply xx or xy chromosome. Sorry but there is much more to chromosomes than that, even in the gnomes, and actually many of the transsexuals I know were either tested as children and not told, tested during medical exams and the info withheld from them and many after srs found out that they actually had a condition known as Klinefelter’s syndrome. This means they had xxy chromosome identification. That in fact would classify them technically as intersexed although never clearly identified as such. This adds to the confusion mix does it not?
Perhaps you might like to read the following:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klinefelter%27s_Syndrome

 

[fix]

It seems having an intellect automatically means, to some, accepting scientific postulates as infallible and in accord with the natural moral law. I am all for questioning. That is why I reject the notion of “transgender” surgery as morally licit.

Science is full of credentialed misfits with an agenda that is part of the culture of death. One does not have to look to far to see all manner of deviant behavior is accepted, and codified, by so-called professionals.

How many scientists claim their data shows abortion is healthy and helpful to women? Plenty.

 

[bones_IV]

fix:

It seems having an intellect automatically means, to some, accepting scientific postulates as infallible and in accord with the natural moral law. I am all for questioning. That is why I reject the notion of “transgender” surgery as morally licit.

Science is full of credentialed misfits with an agenda that is part of the culture of death. One does not have to look to far to see all manner of deviant behavior is accepted, and codified, by so-called professionals.

How many scientists claim their data shows abortion is healthy and helpful to women? Plenty.

The painful reality is that abortion is very unhealthy. Mysteriously this stuff goes unmentioned by main stream media.

 

[fix]

bones_IV:

The painful reality is that abortion is very unhealthy. Mysteriously this stuff goes unmentioned by main stream media.

One problem is that psychological issues are very much soft science and the data may be pushed in any direction.

 

[Neithan]

Lynn-D:

Neithan, you made an assumption of DNA classifying either simply xx or xy chromosome. Sorry but there is much more to chromosomes than that, even in the gnomes, and actually many of the transsexuals I know were either tested as children and not told, tested during medical exams and the info withheld from them and many after srs found out that they actually had a condition known as Klinefelter’s syndrome. This means they had xxy chromosome identification. That in fact would classify them technically as intersexed although never clearly identified as such. This adds to the confusion mix does it not?

I know I’m no medical expert! Even if I was, genetics is still a developing field. Although, from what I’ve read, Klinefelter’s Syndrome produces male offspring, not intersexed. This has to do with the way the genes are organized on each chromatid. Gender identity disorder exists in a much higher rate amongst this group (as would be expected) due to the effect on hormones, but that doesn’t mean that they are actually the ‘wrong sex.’

What I was trying to aim at above, is basically that in Catholic teaching (or my understanding of it) your body cannot be the ‘wrong sex,’ it is what it is (hermaphrodites obviously are an exception), and the virtuous path would be to accept it, to synchronize our mind with the bodies they inhabit, not try to force them to look like something they are not. To distinguish between gender and sex as if they are entirely different or can sometimes be ‘missaligned’ is a confusing and dangerous game of semantics. Our minds do not dictate our bodies like mere ‘ghosts in the machine,’ much of our identity is meant to be physically defined. If we want to have any solid and meaningful idea of our sex (and thus, our gender), we look to our bodies, not how we think or feel about them. I suppose only hermaphrodites could really ‘choose’ their sex, or even remain sexless. That is their unique cross. Men and women both exhibit masculine and feminine qualities, and there are many men who are more feminine, and vice versa, but that does not mean that people should try to ‘correct’ their bodies because they don’t think they suit their personalities or (disordered) desires!

The OP made a comment about the Church putting ‘so much emphasis on the physical,’ but that is really our strength, the fact that we do not internalize everything, that we recognize the true union of spirit with body in human beings, and the importance of the latter on shaping our existential identities.

bones_IV:

Nature (God) doesn’t error.

Just a quick thought: it’s important to keep in mind that Judeo/Christianity firmly separates God from Nature. God created Nature, but He is not one with it–that’s paganism. God created Nature perfectly, but since the Fall she is subject to discord and decay (Romans 8: 20-22). Although it always operates according to definite laws (scientific laws I mean, **not **Natural Law, which is moral and eternal), Nature does not operate fully according to the original plan of God in relation to humans, as a consequence of our banishment from Eden (when Man and Nature were in perfect harmony).

This is why we have disease, natural disasters, and birth defects (such as hermaphrodites), and also why we are not in harmony with our own natures, i.e. our spirits and bodies rebel against one another which is powerfully exemplified in this thread. Our great Christian hope is to look to the Resurrection, when our bodies will be made perfect, and the ‘New Earth’ (Rev. 21:1) which will restore the lost Eden, our perfect harmony with Nature, which is so obviously missing in our world today.

fix:

One problem is that psychological issues are very much soft science and the data may be pushed in any direction

I wholeheartedly agree with this. Science is purely a method of observing phenomena and collecting raw data; any conclusions drawn therefrom is philosophy.

 

[fix]

Neithan:
I wholeheartedly agree with this. Science is purely a method of observing phenomena and collecting raw data; any conclusions drawn therefrom is philosophy.

My point is there is an effort by many within certain fields to change cultural norms. Psychiatry, and related disciplines, have the tools and media exposure to influence public opnion. These issues are not hard and fast and lend themselves to political influence.

Scientific studies are too often looked upon by the public as infallible and having some aura of legitimacy no matter how well done or how poorly done or how biased.