Thank God for Evolution!

[Orogeny]

The Pope’s stance on science includes theology as well, specifically, Humani Generis, as did John Paul II.

As far as the age of the universe, it is entirely possible that God formed the earth in a few days, moving and cooling elements of it according to His will (i.e. separating water and land). And that He instantly stretched out the heavens.

Yes, it is possible. He could be God the Trickster, but I reject that.

Evolution, as defined in biology textbooks, is incomplete. It lacks what Pope Benedict refers to as the complementary action of divine providence.

You mean ALL biology text books that say that God isn’t needed? The ones I am still waiting for a reference to? The Pope didn’t call for theology to be added to biology textbooks.

To put it another way, a scientist is walking with Jesus to his lab. When he reaches the door, he tells Jesus, “You’ll have to wait out here.”

What???

Peace

Tim

 

[Neil_Anthony]

God can create time, but we are bound by that time. If He created it to be 13 billion years ago, even if, in His timeframe (which I don’t think actually exists), then it was 13 billion years ago.

Now, if you are suggesting that He created that time AFTER creation of the universe, then you would be referring to God the Trickster because the only reason to do so would be to give an appearance of something that is different than reality.

Peace

Tim

So when do you require God to create the past in order for God to not be a liar? What deadline do you give him? I’m assuming this is in god-time and not the people-time we’re all so familiar with.

Consider that this whole universe was ‘made up’ by God. It’s all his imagination. You can’t get more tricky than that. Is God a big liar for making this world up then putting us into it, and making it look like it’s real?

 

[edwest2]

What??? God sees all things. Science included. It is not something separate from God as a purely human activity, get it? Here, that is how it is presented: the perfect, inviolate, always to be reverenced, word of S-C-I-E-N-C-E. Science makes all things possible! MAN makes all things possible! Who needs God when you’ve got genes for altruism, hedonism and who knows what else? (God can wait outside while men perform ‘science,’ wonderful, exciting science!)

For Catholics, whatever science declares must always be viewed through the light of sacred scripture.

I suspect you don’t like the idea that God created the earth in a few days and placed the stars in the heavens instantly, because that takes the fun out of the science part. Oh well.

God bless,
Ed

 

[Orogeny]

So when do you require God to create the past in order for God to not be a liar? What deadline do you give him? I’m assuming this is in god-time and not the people-time we’re all so familiar with.

At the beginning of the time He made for us. There is no such thing as God time.

Consider that this whole universe was ‘made up’ by God. It’s all his imagination. You can’t get more tricky than that. Is God a big liar for making this world up then putting us into it, and making it look like it’s real?

You are right, Neil. Maybe we are in the Matrix.

God gave us intellect and I believe He expects us to use it, in part, to study and understand His creation.

Peace

Tim

 

[Orogeny]

If some of you guys are unable to step out of time for a while to do a mental exercize where you imagine creation from beyond time, that doesn’t make God immoral. It just shows that you aren’t ready for the next step yet.

Well, maybe when we grow up we can be as smart as you, Neil.

Peace

Tim

 

[Neil_Anthony]

At the beginning of the time He made for us. There is no such thing as God time.You are right, Neil. Maybe we are in the Matrix.

God gave us intellect and I believe He expects us to use it, in part, to study and understand His creation.

That’s sarcasm, right?

We could be tricking ourselves by how we think. I’m sure people argued that only a trickster God would make the earth revolve and give the appearance that the sun moved across the sky. But no, it was people who were stuck in one mode of thinking.

If some of you guys are unable to step out of time for a while to do a mental exercize where you imagine creation from beyond time, that doesn’t make God immoral. It just shows that you aren’t ready for the next step in understanding.

God said that this world is passing away. It’s very temporary. We were locked out of paradise and I believe this is the world we’re stuck in, and it’s much less real than that garden of Eden paradise was.

 

[Orogeny]

What??? God sees all things. Science included. It is not something separate from God as a purely human activity, get it?

What does that have to do with your little fairy tale?

Here, that is how it is presented: the perfect, inviolate, always to be reverenced, word of S-C-I-E-N-C-E. Science makes all things possible! MAN makes all things possible! Who needs God when you’ve got genes for altruism, hedonism and who knows what else? (God can wait outside while men perform ‘science,’ wonderful, exciting science!)

You can make up all those little stories if they make you happy, Ed, but I hate to tell you this - they aren’t real.

For Catholics, whatever science declares must always be viewed through the light of sacred scripture.

Unless, of course, you disagree with them, huh Ed.

I suspect you don’t like the idea that God created the earth in a few days and placed the stars in the heavens instantly, because that takes the fun out of the science part. Oh well.

If it makes you feel better, Ed, suspect away. I suspect that you really do think that I am either an athiest or mislead. Oh well.

Peace

Tim

 

[buffalo]

God can create time, but we are bound by that time. If He created it to be 13 billion years ago, even if, in His timeframe (which I don’t think actually exists), then it was 13 billion years ago.

Now, if you are suggesting that He created that time AFTER creation of the universe, then you would be referring to God the Trickster because the only reason to do so would be to give an appearance of something that is different than reality.

Peace

Tim

Ahhhh!!! Hw do we measure time? By cycles. Be careful here.

Cycles can go faster or slower.

 

[Orogeny]

That’s sarcasm, right?

Why don’t you do a little mental excercise and get back to me on that one.

We could be tricking ourselves by how we think. I’m sure people argued that only a trickster God would make the earth revolve and give the appearance that the sun moved across the sky. But no, it was people who were stuck in one mode of thinking.

How do you know that they were wrong? Do a little mental exercise and see if you can grasp that maybe He only makes it look like the earth is orbiting the sun. Who knows, maybe you aren’t ready for that step yet.

Peace

Tim

 

[buffalo]

Why don’t you do a little mental excercise and get back to me on that one.How do you know that they were wrong? Do a little mental exercise and see if you can grasp that maybe He only makes it look like the earth is orbiting the sun. Who knows, maybe you aren’t ready for that step yet.

Peace

Tim

This frustrated response is unsusual for you my friend.

I agree that our understanding comes in steps. Who knows what the next step will be?

 

[buffalo]

As far as how one determines which is correct, it comes down to the concept that my friend buffalo doesn’t want discussed - unless one chooses to believe that God created the universe to appear old, it is old. I don’t believe that God would do that.

Peace

Tim

I’ll discuss it all day.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Sorry I hurt your feelings, Orogeny. I have a mental condition that makes it hard for me to recognize sarcasm. It also allows me to look at things from a weird perspective (like imagining from outside spacetime). Sorry about that!

Why don’t you do a little mental excercise and get back to me on that one.How do you know that they were wrong? Do a little mental exercise and see if you can grasp that maybe He only makes it look like the earth is orbiting the sun. Who knows, maybe you aren’t ready for that step yet.

Today we know that the earth spins on its axis and the earth goes around the sun. If the sun had to spin around the earth, at that speed with that mass, it would fly further away from the earth into a higher orbit.

Do you really think the sun orbits the earth? Or maybe your whole post was sarcastic?

 

[Orogeny]

This frustrated response is unsusual for you my friend.

I agree that our understanding comes in steps. Who knows what the next step will be?

It is frustrating to have someone assume that they are so much smarter than everyone else. Under Neil’s scenario, nothing is really knowable. My reference to the Matrix was partially tongue-in-cheek, but read again what he wrote and then think of the premise of that movie. Interesting discussion over a beer, but that’s about it. It certainly isn’t knowable even if it is true.

Peace

Tim

 

[Orogeny]

Sorry I hurt your feelings, Orogeny. I have a mental condition that makes it hard for me to recognize sarcasm. It also allows me to look at things from a weird perspective (like imagining from outside spacetime). Sorry about that!

Well, in that case I truly apologize. You would have to do a lot worse to hurt my feelings.

Peace

Tim

 

[Orogeny]

Do you really think the sun orbits the earth? Or maybe your whole post was sarcastic?

It was sarcastic. But be careful, there are several that post to this forum that truly do believe that the sun orbits the earth. And I’m not being sarcastic this time.

Peace

Tim

 

[buffalo]

Do a little mental exercise and see if you can grasp that maybe He only makes it look like the earth is orbiting the sun. Who knows, maybe you aren’t ready for that step yet.

Peace

Tim

From other threads and debates it is not apparent mathematically. That seems to be well established.

Why would God trick our mathemeticians?

I think the crux is what is apparent or not.

To prove it we need to look in from outside our frame of reference. Interestingly enough this also holds true for quantum physics.

However we are stuck inside our own frame. At the end of the day what determines what we believe? Our worldview.

How do we check if our worldview is correct???

 

[Neil_Anthony]

However we are stuck inside our own frame. At the end of the day what determines what we believe? Our worldview.

How do we check if our worldview is correct???

Well, I think God speaks to us where we’re at. That’s why the creation story shows God creating the universe over a number of days. The people at that time simply would not have been able to graps the notion of God operating from outside of space-time. Can you imagine trying to explain that to a caveman? You can barely even explain it on here to modern people.

Also in the bible you see references to the sun moving across the sky when its really the earth rotating. God speak’s to us at our level of understanding.

So if your worldview isn’t correct or advanced enough, at least you have the Genesis craetion myth to explain it to you. If you keep advancing your worldview, you might get something more scientifically accurate, but we already know what we need to know about God in order to be saved.

 

[edwest2]

They weren’t smart enough. They just weren’t smart enough. That’s all it is - they just wren’t smart enough. Baloney.

Jesus turns the water into wine. Jesus gives sight to the blind. Jesus multiplies the loaves and fishes. Jesus rises from the dead.

Hope. They were smart enough.

God bless,
Ed

 

[buffalo]

Well, I think God speaks to us where we’re at. That’s why the creation story shows God creating the universe over a number of days. The people at that time simply would not have been able to graps the notion of God operating from outside of space-time. Can you imagine trying to explain that to a caveman? You can barely even explain it on here to modern people.

.

Bingo!!! However, God cannot deceive. So we have to be careful here that the creation story doesn’t hold the kernel of truth that can be unpackaged no matter what age we live in.

I believe God reduced what He needed to be understood in all ages.

 

[Orogeny]

They weren’t smart enough. They just weren’t smart enough. That’s all it is - they just wren’t smart enough. Baloney.

Jesus turns the water into wine. Jesus gives sight to the blind. Jesus multiplies the loaves and fishes. Jesus rises from the dead.

Hope. They were smart enough.

Hey Ed, could you please learn to use the quote function so that we have an idea who you and what are replying to? This seems to be just rambling. Were you actually replying to something?

Peace

Tim