Thanks a lot, NOT!

[Chantal25]

I hope I don’t come across too harshly, but, if your husband has already been diagnosed with depression and you already **know **that he has been and then still go on to complain about all of his bad habits which are in large part caused or at least greatly exagerated because of his illness then this is in no way a clear-cut scenario of you being the good spouse who always puts up with everything and your husband just being a selfish man who never helps you. He is ill. It is your job to love him in sickness and in health. Perhaps he is not acting as well as he could to try and get through his illness, but it sounds to me as though you never took his illness seriously or even partly into account to explain his behaviour and instead began to allow yourself to think poorly of your husband and to blame him for everthing even though at least some (if not most) of his poor behaviour is typical for his kind of illness. No, of course its not good or acceptable behaviour, but it sure would be harder to work to get out of your depression if you were married to someone who no longer respected you and could not sympathize with what you were going through or even take into account your illness when sizing up your actions. There is fault on both sides here, and your marriage needs serious counselling.

I can tell that you are a man and you cannot comprehend what pregnancy mean. A woman that never being pregnant, cannot comprehend this either. I certainly had no clue until i got pregnant myself. I used to suffer depression myself (cured) but this is nothing compare to being pregnant. Your blood pressure goes down due that you are building more blood vessel for the baby and you energy level take a huge drop. I could paint a whole house, in few days and it took me three months for only one room while pregnant. Clearly, you need support when you are pregnant. I hope you get the picture.

So please, kindly don’t be judgmental to this woman. She has a baby in her, you should try to support her yourself and share your view from a good place instead. I am sure you mean only to help and you can do this with prayer and try to understand her while sharing your view but gently.

All the best!

 

[thewanderer]

I can tell that you are a man and you cannot comprehend what pregnancy mean. A woman that never being pregnant, cannot comprehend this either. I certainly had no clue until i got pregnant myself. I used to suffer depression myself (cured) but this is nothing compare to being pregnant. Your blood pressure goes down due that you are building more blood vessel for the baby and you energy level take a huge drop. I could paint a whole house, in few days and it took me three months for only one room while pregnant. Clearly, you need support when you are pregnant. I hope you get the picture.

So please, kindly don’t be judgmental to this woman. She has a baby in her, you should try to support her yourself and share your view from a good place instead. I am sure you mean only to help and you can do this with prayer and try to understand her while sharing your view but gently.

All the best!

Haha, actually, no, I am not a man, I am a woman. And I do understand that pregnancy can be extremely difficult and that depression is not always very problematic, but sometimes things are switched the other way around as well. I am in no way trying to be judgemental. I am trying to help the OP to look at her situation from other points of view in case that will end up helping. I do realize that that first post was probably written a little harshly, and I do apologize for that, but judging from her response I do think the OP took it as it was intended, for which I am grateful as I realy do see that it could have been taken the wrong way.

 

[Chantal25]

Haha, actually, no, I am not a man, I am a woman. And I do understand that pregnancy can be extremely difficult and that depression is not always very problematic, but sometimes things are switched the other way around as well. I am in no way trying to be judgemental. I am trying to help the OP to look at her situation from other points of view in case that will end up helping. I do realize that that first post was probably written a little harshly, and I do apologize for that, but judging from her response I do think the OP took it as it was intended, for which I am grateful as I realy do see that it could have been taken the wrong way.

Opss, so sorry, i was the one that was judgmental. Hope you forgive me.

As a woman, you probably understand that at time we think that if the person care about us, he will guess our need. I might be wrong but she seems like she is trying to be the perfect mother and perfect wife but now realize it is more she cans handle. I truly feel for her, i only have one child and it was very hard physically on me.

So sorry again,

All the best!

 

[Xantippe]

If he is depressed, the first priority is to get him on a medical regime that will pull him out of his depression. I’m afraid that the responsibility for that is going to rest on the OP. There’s no point in trying anything else until he’s being treated.

I understand how irritating his behaviors are, but he’s not really himself at this point. Even as a woman and just from having had just two little kids at home some years ago, I understand how easy it is to fall into screen-saver mode when overwhelmed by family responsibilities. The only good news I have is that depression is highly treatable.

One more thing–don’t quit your job until your marriage is doing better. I know how much you hate the thought of leaving your baby, but just a few days ago, you were thinking of separation. It’s in your children’s long-term best interest for you to keep working until things are much better.

 

[littlenothing]

I read a book by St Francis de Sales…if I recall the title I will post it…and in it he said the pain most resembling Christs agony is the pain of a difficult marriage.

That hit me pretty hard. It is always present, heartbreaking, often secret, and there is no way out. Oh, yes, there’s counselling, medication, buying a new pair of shoes. But in the wee hours of the night, there it is…this empty black hole that should be filled with love, acceptance, helpfulness, sobriety…you name it. And who understands? Only those few who have been there or are there.

God bless you abundantly with His strength and comfort your tremendous sorrow!

 

[sweetpetunia]

If he is depressed, the first priority is to get him on a medical regime that will pull him out of his depression.

This. And pretty much everything thewanderer said. Depression can be crippling, and it sounds like it is for your husband

 

[littlenothing]

This. And pretty much everything thewanderer said. Depression can be crippling, and it sounds like it is for your husband

Im sorry, but being a big baby can also be “crippling”. If he truly is depressed, obviously he needs medical help. But there is the possibility he has a personality disorder or a factitious disorder in addition or instead. Of course, we don’t know the full picture and we can’t possibly know it, but I tend to give the OP the benefit of doubt. The guy sounds a bit less depressed, more disordered in character to me.

 

[Xantippe]

“But there is the possibility he has a personality disorder or a factitious disorder in addition or instead.”

Depression is low-hanging fruit, though. It’s a relatively easy fix, so it’s a good place to start.

 

[littlenothing]

“But there is the possibility he has a personality disorder or a factitious disorder in addition or instead.”

Depression is low-hanging fruit, though. It’s a relatively easy fix, so it’s a good place to start.

Good point, actually. Chip away at what can be managed, pray about what can’t.

 

[Robertanthony]

I’m not sure that his depression is that serious. I think the biggest underlying issue is: I didn’t sign up for the Catholic craziness (all these kids, so close together), therefore, I’m not participating in any of it. If you talk to him about doing anything - diy projects, taking the kids out - he thinks it’s too much work and therefore does not attempt it. Ask either of his brothers and they’ll tell you that he wasn’t raised w/ any responsibilities and has never been acclimated to physical labor. DH willingly admits after a finished project how good it feels, but he certainly doesn’t want to make a habit of it!

Xantippe, on further reflection, in order to sell our house, DH would insist on doing all of the projects that would make our home more liveable and then I’d be content to stay rather than sell. Who knows, if we got it ready, we still may sit on it long enough to enjoy it. Doubt he’ll buy it though until he finishes school or figures things out w/ his job.

At least the situation isn’t so bad that you would drop the “D” in “DH”. A Catholic marriage with 4-5 kids, financial burden, strict moral framework etc. I just don’t think he was properly raised to face that. Perhaps it also has to do with his personality, i.e. more passive-aggressive, not much of a go-getter, no initiative in any way, shape or form, etc. If he’s not good with DIY projects, I’m sure somebody at his job is. he could “hire” that person to do stuff that he could assist with. It doesn’t require insane money to make things look much better. I just watched a home make-over show where they would add wood mouldings and alkyd paint to white melamine kitchen cupboards and they look a million times better. Perhaps he could capitalize on the momentum and sense of pride from getting things done and he would leave his safe refuge, the computer. Shake him from his inertia or pray God does.

 

[JLCecilia]

littlenothing, yes, if you can remember the title of that book of Frances de Sales, please share. I need to read some saints stories. Perhaps I could start w/ Sts. Monica and Rita. My MIL happens to be a saint. Her hubs is a jerk too, but she rarely talks about it and she’s sweet as pie to everyone. As someone for whom this sort of character doesn’t come naturally, I really find it quite sickening and I tend to keep my distance from people like this b/c it’s too hard to relate/have convos when I don’t have as many pleasant things to say. To be fair, I have to admit my major flaw in all this: I’m just like my mother: jealous, spiteful, negative and impossible to please. DH probably wouldn’t stand a chance if he WAS prince charming.

 

[mommamaree]

littlenothing, yes, if you can remember the title of that book of Frances de Sales, please share. I need to read some saints stories. Perhaps I could start w/ Sts. Monica and Rita. My MIL happens to be a saint. Her hubs is a jerk too, but she rarely talks about it and she’s sweet as pie to everyone. As someone for whom this sort of character doesn’t come naturally, I really find it quite sickening and I tend to keep my distance from people like this b/c it’s too hard to relate/have convos when I don’t have as many pleasant things to say. To be fair, I have to admit my major flaw in all this: I’m just like my mother: jealous, spiteful, negative and impossible to please. DH probably wouldn’t stand a chance if he WAS prince charming.

Don’t sell yourself too short, JLCecilia! Try to deepen your relationship with your MIL. If you have any hope of your husband being able to improve, then you should also expect that you are able to improve. Ask your MIL how she handles marital difficulties. She would be pleased to know that you love her son so much that you want to learn how to be the best version of yourself for his sake, I would think.
You can only change yourself. You can ask your husband to work on himself, too, but ultimately it is his decision. You underestimate yourself and put yourself down in this post. What if your husband does the same and that is what is preventing him from changing? Sometimes we can convince ourselves that we are not capable of any better. But with God, all things are possible. You can live from that truth and inspire your husband by your example. Inspiration often works where nagging never can.

 

[JLCecilia]

mommamaree, thank you for the encouragement. DH mentioned before that I could call his mom to gripe b/c she’s married to a jerk too, but I would expect this to be insulting or even heartbreaking to her, even thought it isn’t news to her. DH has voiced in the past that he doesn’t appreciate my griping to family and I’ve tried to honor that, but perhaps he only meant in crowds. I would expect that the way MIL deals w/ it is through talking w/ her 3 sisters with whom she’s very close.

 

[sweetpetunia]

Im sorry, but being a big baby can also be “crippling”. If he truly is depressed, obviously he needs medical help. But there is the possibility he has a personality disorder or a factitious disorder in addition or instead. Of course, we don’t know the full picture and we can’t possibly know it, but I tend to give the OP the benefit of doubt. The guy sounds a bit less depressed, more disordered in character to me.

I think you missed the part where the OP said he was DIAGNOSED as being depressed, and they did not follow through with the treatment. Anti-depressants take time to kick in: two to six weeks is common, and if you stop before they kick in, then you are not going to know the benefit.

I thought he possibly sounded depressed before the OP confirmed it. Personality disorders are also mental health issues that need treatment. I don’t think you should be calling him a “big baby” regardless. A depressed person’s brain isn’t functioning correctly. I am not saying that it is easy, right, just, or fair for the OP. If it is how she says it is, then it is not. But I think many people underestimate the impact and severity of depression. You don’t need to be suicidal for depression to be serious. Depression can make even leaving one’s bed seem like a superhuman task, let alone going to work and being expected to help out around the home and with the children. The OP is by her own admission very hard on him-- she said he probably wouldn’t even stand a chance if he were prince charming. Depression CAN be exhausting, and ordinary life goals probably seem insurmountable.

I think it is extremely important to note that if depression interferes with one’s ability to carry out the activities of daily living, then it is serious. She says he is not taking care of himself physically, not enjoying himself with his passion of sports, and calls himself a jerk like his father. On the other hand, he did mind the kids so she could get out with a girlfriend, so he is not completely beyond reach. Apparently, they both feel hopeless about the state of the house, although the few times that he has been able to accomplish something, he expressed inner satisfaction, so there’s hope there, too. Depression can make your brain live in a fog like that. He needs help. They both do. Don’t get me wrong. I feel for her, I really do. I hope she can make spiritual direction happen.

 

[littlenothing]

I didn’t miss the diagnosis, sweetpetunia. I diagnose people every day who would do well to also look to their character flaws as part of the solution. We do what we can with meds, and for some this is all it takes. But simply having been diagnosed with depression doesn’t equal needing meds and being irresponsible without them.

Look, I am very sympathetic to folks with disabling mental disorder. But there is quite often more to it than that.

And actually, insisting that character flaws are part of the depression is a bit insulting to people who suffer from mental afflictions. Not saying people do this on purpose, but mental illness is a many faceted problem requiring more than just meds and follow ups. Sometimes the character disorder precedes the mood disorder. Meds will only do what they are designed to do…alter the neurotransmitter milieu. The rest the patient has to do on their own, and if its more than just a matter of some misfiring neurons, meds wont help much anyway.

 

[sweetpetunia]

I didn’t miss the diagnosis, sweetpetunia. I diagnose people every day who would do well to also look to their character flaws as part of the solution. We do what we can with meds, and for some this is all it takes. But simply having been diagnosed with depression doesn’t equal needing meds and being irresponsible without them.

Look, I am very sympathetic to folks with disabling mental disorder. But there is quite often more to it than that.

And actually, insisting that character flaws are part of the depression is a bit insulting to people who suffer from mental afflictions. Not saying people do this on purpose, but mental illness is a many faceted problem requiring more than just meds and follow ups. Sometimes the character disorder precedes the mood disorder. Meds will only do what they are designed to do…alter the neurotransmitter milieu. The rest the patient has to do on their own, and if its more than just a matter of some misfiring neurons, meds wont help much anyway.

We may have to agree to disagree. I have seen too many cases where the difference between treatment and non-treatment was the difference between functioning and non-functioning. He has not been diagnosed with a personality disorder. He has been diagnosed with depression, which, I might add, is currently not being treated. According to the OP’s description, he has two main flaws: 1) he is not pulling his weight around the house and 2) he is not pulling his weight with the kids. I don’t think he is a paragon of virtue or an innocent victim. I do think the untreated depression is a major factor in his ‘selfishness’ or ‘laziness’ or whatever you want to call it. I mean, look at him, he’s struggling with his IADL’s.

I also think that his lack of engagement may be exacerbated by her behavior. She criticizes him publicly (in front of family) and is harsh towards him, by her own account. It is a common human response to withdraw. Even avoidance would be understandable in my estimation. If she gives him an earful for making a simple request, and if he wouldn’t stand a chance even if he were Prince Charming (her statement, not mine), well, what motivation does he have to engage her? I’m not making excuses for him, or saying that it’s right, but I kind of get why he would send the kid to open the door instead of going himself.

I am totally on board with thewanderer saying there is fault on both sides here. I daresay anything else is the personification of splitting, and would be doing the couple a disservice.

 

[JLCecilia]

I also think that his lack of engagement may be exacerbated by her behavior. She criticizes him publicly (in front of family) and is harsh towards him, by her own account. It is a common human response to withdraw. Even avoidance would be understandable in my estimation.

I’m glad you bring this up b/c I need to be reminded of it. In my defense, however, I try to avoid publicy criticizing him as I did in our earlier years b/c he DID make a point all those years ago to mention it to me (and his request really called me to task). More than that even, I’m embarrassed to admit my poverty in marriage (that my DH isn’t as good as I consider my friends’ DHs). If you don’t have anything good to say, don’t say anything at all, right? That’s the approach I’ve taken in conversations is just to be silent about the subject.

You may be right on about his reaction to attitude and loss of motivation to alter things. I find myself doing the same thing w/ him at famiy functions. For him, these gatherings are his main method of socializing and he really looks forward to them. The problem is that I don’t have the same luxury b/c I get the vibe from him - often verbalized pubicly and angrily - that keeping an eye on the kids is my job so he can enjoy himself. He doesn’t put it that way exactly, he just gets aggrivated when one of the kids actually gets a little out of hand or acts up and in a way that’s my fault for not keeping an eye on them b/c clearly HIS visiting is more important than mine. Since I have some issues w/ jealousy toward his cousins’ wives for a variety of reasons, it’s easier now for me to avoid the ladies’ ‘round table’ in the kitchen and excuse myself from the conversation in order to keep tabs on my kids and keep DH’s temper off of me. I tend to make an a** of myself in conversations anyway b/c my green-eyed monster rears its ugly head and I can be rude without meaning to, so it’s in my best interest to keep adult convos to the minimum (avoid the near occasion of sin) and just keep up on the kids.

Anyway, the point I was trying to get at is that I can sort of understand why DH would react this way to me. I feel the same way toward him when he berates me in front of his family. I just withdraw from everyone and hide behind the kids. Rather than verbally admit the state of things to others and sound like a critical wife, I’ll just let HIS actions speak for themselves and let others judge for themselves. In my head, I just hear things like “your guys’ problem is that you have more children than you can reasonably handle and it’s putting a strain on your marriage.”

 

[Xantippe]

“In my head, I just hear things like “your guys’ problem is that you have more children than you can reasonably handle and it’s putting a strain on your marriage.””

I’m sure that if you were able-bodied (i.e. not pregnant) you could whip them all into shape with one hand tied behind your back.

“I feel the same way toward him when he berates me in front of his family.”

He criticizes you in front of his family? Man oh man, that’s terrible.

This is a tough one, because it sounds like these family gatherings are his one chance to shine socially, so it makes sense not to squelch him when he is actually enjoying himself with real live human beings.

I wouldn’t assume that your friends have amazing relationships with their husbands. They may or they may not–it’s just that the normal thing is to put your best foot forward in public. My personal 11th commandment is Thou Shalt Not Run Thy Husband Down. If I have gripes, I talk to him about it, not to anybody else. (Of course, if we had serious issues, I would have to adjust that rule.)

 

[The_Bucket]

Anyway, the point I was trying to get at is that I can sort of understand why DH would react this way to me. I feel the same way toward him when he berates me in front of his family. I just withdraw from everyone and hide behind the kids. Rather than verbally admit the state of things to others and sound like a critical wife, I’ll just let HIS actions speak for themselves and let others judge for themselves. In my head, I just hear things like “your guys’ problem is that you have more children than you can reasonably handle and it’s putting a strain on your marriage.”

Someone’s got to break the cycle of crazy. That’s what I think. And since you can only control you… then you should try and be the one that breaks the cycle of anger and insanity. You can’t make him step up and be a better man. And you can’t even assume that you being a better person is going to make him be a better person. But you can surrender your will to God and decide you are just going to be the person God wants you to be and the hell with the rest.

Recall Christ’s words in Luke…

If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. If you lend to those from whom you hope to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to receive as much again. But love your enemies, do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return. Your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High; for he is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked…

Do that. Love and expect nothing in return. If you do get something in return, that’s awesome. If you don’t, just keep loving. For love does not grow because it is returned. Love grows because the very action of loving causes the lover to want to love more.

 

[JLCecilia]

Someone’s got to break the cycle of crazy. That’s what I think. And since you can only control you… then you should try and be the one that breaks the cycle of anger and insanity. You can’t make him step up and be a better man. And you can’t even assume that you being a better person is going to make him be a better person. But you can surrender your will to God and decide you are just going to be the person God wants you to be and the hell with the rest.

Recall Christ’s words in Luke…

Do that. Love and expect nothing in return. If you do get something in return, that’s awesome. If you don’t, just keep loving. For love does not grow because it is returned. Love grows because the very action of loving causes the lover to want to love more.

Perfectly put. Wish I could emmulate this WITHOUT hardening of the heart. My perception that it would be easier to do this WITHOUT him around is likely totally off and besides the point, but I’d sure like the chance to find out - just a little break? Remove the pebble from my shoe for a bit?