Thanks Kindle I have to now explain this to my child!!

[VeritasLuxMea]

I was referring obviously to invalid remarriage, and I do think it’s the same. Is providing the flowers for an adulterous relationship any better than providing the flowers for a same-sex one?

Um… excuse me? They are totally different! One is more ‘icky’ than the other, and that is how you are supposed to distinguish right from wrong!

 

[yellowbird]

Um… excuse me? They are totally different! One is more ‘icky’ than the other, and that is how you are supposed to distinguish right from wrong!

So true… and the sins I commit aren’t icky in the least which means they are not THAT big a deal.

Obviously.

 

[Litcrit]

Um… excuse me? They are totally different! One is more ‘icky’ than the other, and that is how you are supposed to distinguish right from wrong!

On a more serious note: Those who are easily disgusted are apparently more likely to be politically conservative.

 

[PaulinVA]

I was talking about acting as a florist (or photographer, or DJ, or caterer, or venue owner) for both types of invalid weddings - an already married Catholic getting “remarried” and a SS couple having a civil “marriage.” Personally I can’t say one offends me more than the other. But I think a lot of Catholics find the gay wedding situation more distasteful than the adultery invalid wedding situation.

My point is that you probably don’t have full knowledge of the situation of every heterosexual couple coming in to your shop. You certainly do for the gay couple.

And, attempting a marriage when you are not eligible for one is different than attempting to redefine marriage in terms of the parties.

 

[epan]

So, this is a very interesting discussion.

I think that the 14th Amendment probably demands that gay marriage be allowed, so we will all have to deal with this in the future (in the US).

This does present many issues for Christians - not because gay marriage will kill heterosexual marriage - we have already killed marriage ourselves. The real issue is explaining what marriage is to our children, and how people with service jobs are “protected” in conscience.

If children are not the reason to get married, what is the reason? If men and women don’t have separate and discrete roles in society and in marriage, what happens? If I think gay marriage is a sham, can I still be forced to provide flowers to one, to photograph one? Can I be forced to rent a room at my bed and breakfast to a married gay couple? Can I express displeasure or revulsion in public at the idea of gay marriage?

How many florists confirmed that sex was not going on for unmarried men buying flowers? How, exactly would you do that? Do you differentiate between heterosexual adultery, and homosexual adultery?

 

[yellowbird]

My point is that you probably don’t have full knowledge of the situation of every heterosexual couple coming in to your shop. You certainly do for the gay couple.

I think a sign in the window is a good idea:

NO FLOWERS FOR GAYS!

or better yet…

NO PAINSIES FOR PANSIES!

 

[Biblepoe]

Um… excuse me? They are totally different! One is more ‘icky’ than the other, and that is how you are supposed to distinguish right from wrong!

I hope you’re being facetious, but if this is your criteria for determining whether a sexual relationship is acceptable or not, then any old people marrying would be wrong because that is icky to me.

 

[Biblepoe]

I DON"T KNOW THEM. Hearing about someone being gay and actually “knowing” is two different things.

Is the number of people you really know 35 or greater? If so, even if only 2% of the population is gay, at least some of them are probably gay (just perhaps in the closet due to fear). I mathematically justified this in a previous post in which I responded to someone else (see below).

Also, I graduated high school in the late 90’s, in the City of Chicago. NO one ever knew of or talked about someone being gay.

Were there 35 or more students in the school? If so, then at least some students were probably gay. Did you know at least 35 students from your school? If so, then you probably knew gay students from your high school. The fact that it wasn’t spoken of just means that people were pressured into hiding their relationships and being silenced.

Maybe I should come out of the closet… Hi CAF I am heterosexual. I believe in traditional marriage. I can’t control my attraction to my husband…

Feel free to come out if you wish, but there isn’t much of a need to because people assume you are straight, and you don’t have to worry about how people will treat you the same as a heterosexual. For homosexuals on the other hand, they jeopardize relationships if people find out, yet they would be living life with a weight (consisting of social costs) constantly hanging over their head if they chose to hide their homosexuality.

But about the add itself, how many adds do you see everyday that include couples? Out of all of those, how many of those couples are same-sex couples? I suspect that it is no more than 2%. Given that roughly 2% of the population is gay (not including those between gay and straight), it is hardly surprising that you’ll see adds like this from time to time.

EDIT: I just want to add that a counselor I knew from the Catholic College I went to for my undergrad degree thought that about 10% of the students had same-sex attraction. This counselor is a conservative Catholic. Using this number instead of 2%, the odds of knowing someone with same-sex attraction is more than 50% if you know only 7 or more people!

My previous post about the mathematical probabilities:

Make that 35 people. At 50 people, the probability of at least one of them being gay if 2% of the population is gay is 64%. The probability that a typical American knows someone who is gay is 99.9995% (see below).

Mathematical explanation:
If the probability of someone being gay is 2% (or 0.02), the probability of that person not being gay is the complement 0.98 (1 - 0.02 = 0.98). The probability of none of N number of people being gay is then the probability of an individual not being gay to the Nth power (in this case, the probability of none of 35 people being gay is 0.98^35 = 0.49, or 49%). The probability of at least one of those individuals being gay is the complement of that (1 - 0.49 = 0.51, or 51%).

According to the New York Times, the average American knows about 600 people. The probability that none of them are gay is 0.98^600 = .000005, or 0.0005%. In other words, even if only 2% of the population is gay, there is a 99.9995% chance that you know someone who is gay.

These numbers are based on the assumption that only 2% of the population is gay, but many studies have found the percentages to greatly vary based on research methodology with 2% being on the lower end of the results. Plus, these numbers don’t always include those who are somewhere in between gay and straight.

So, it is safe to assume that you know someone who is gay whether you know that they are gay or not. Your children know gay people. That fact that some of them are going to get married, and that this fact would get reflected in everyday media is hardly surprising.

Not to be a math prude, but I thought I should emphasize the point that everyone knows someone who is gay, whether they know that they know a gay person or not.

 

[PaulinVA]

I think a sign in the window is a good idea:

NO FLOWERS FOR GAYS!

or better yet…

NO PAINSIES FOR PANSIES!

If you had read my posts, you would have seen that I do not think there is any constitutional basis for asserting conscience as a reason for not participating in gay weddings by providing flowers or photography or providing other services for gay couples.

By equating gay marriage with straight marriage, and gay marriage with illicit marriage (in the realm of the Church), society and people in the Church have caused traditional Christians to lose the culture war.

If gay marriage is normal, your child will be a hateful bully at school if he says, innocently, that Bobby can’t have two daddies. Children will become confused as to gender roles if there really aren’t gender roles and everyone is absolutely the same. How can you help a boy grow up to be a man when a man has no unique characteristics or attributes or contributions to make to a relationship?

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

Were there 35 or more students in the school? If so, then at least some students were probably gay. Did you know at least 35 students from your school? If so, then you probably knew gay students from your high school. The fact that it wasn’t spoken of just means that people were pressured into hiding their relationships and being silenced.

Yeah there’s just no way the % of homosexuals, atheists, etc. is being accurately reported.

 

[Biblepoe]

Yeah there’s just no way the % of homosexuals, atheists, etc. is being accurately reported.

The numbers vary based on how the data is gathered, but I was basing my math in the above post on the 2% figure provided by opus101 in post 51. It was that number which the OP, in post 67, used to emphatically make the point that none of the people she really knows (beyond being casual acquaintances) are gay.

This was the context:

opus101;10430574:

You make it seem like this situation is all-pervasive throughout society. The truth is that only about 2% of the population identifies as gay.

Thank you!! I also don’t go around asking people. I am sure there are with everyday acquaintances. I even have heard of some neighbors to be. I DON"T KNOW THEM.

 

[90Domer]

Thank you!! I also don’t go around asking people. I am sure there are with everyday acquaintances. I even have heard of some neighbors to be. I DON"T KNOW THEM. Hearing about someone being gay and actually “knowing” is two different things.

Also, I graduated high school in the late 90’s, in the City of Chicago. NO one ever knew of or talked about someone being gay.

Maybe I should come out of the closet… Hi CAF I am heterosexual. I believe in traditional marriage. I can’t control my attraction to my husband…

Count me in too!

Seriously, we do have a close family member who was openly gay and pushed hard for equal recognition of his partner (whom we referred to only as his roommate). My in-laws also pushed hard for us to recognize this relationship as a “marriage.” Until my husband decided our son was well-grounded in the faith, we kept our son away from interactions which could cause confusion.

I need to say that I think some people are naive as to how impressionable children can be. My son was a late talker, but that didn’t mean he wasn’t taking in or absorbing the world around him. Quite the opposite. We rarely watch TV now. Instead, we record the shows so that we can fast forward through the commercials. Of course, that’s not necessary on EWTN.

 

[90Domer]

The hood? I was raised in the rural midwest. My graduating class had less than 100 people, and the nearest town (15 miles away) had a population of 4,000. Everyone was white, everyone was Christian, and everyone knew everyone. It’s about as far from a “hood” as you can get.

1. Sex offenders avoid children who know their bodies, what is right and wrong, and speak anatomically. That is a tip off to abusers that the child is comfortable and knowledgeable enough to go to a trusted adult. It doesn’t have to be graphic. My mother, a deeply religious woman, had a book when I was about 3 that was about good touching and bad touching, and yes, there were naked people in it. She explained to me “God gave you very special parts, and those parts should never be touched by anyone but you, me, or a doctor. When you are a grown up you can share those parts with your husband, but that’s it”. Later when I asked where babies come from she said “Remember how I told you that husbands and wives share their special parts? Well sometimes when they do that a woman gets pregnant.” Being four I accepted that answer. And throughout my childhood she added information as it became appropriate. But we always, from the time I was a small child said ‘penis’, ‘vagina’, ‘breasts’, ‘testicles’, etc. I actually think that the kids who had the best attitudes towards sex were the ones who grew up on a farm and saw how animals impregnated and born every year. It was just an accepted fact to them, not a joke, not a novelty, just life.
2. It doesn’t matter how good the school is, you cannot ensure that everyone who attends is being brought up in a home with the same values. I learned about oral sex on the playground in second grade because my friend’s teenage brother was talking about it in front of her and she wanted to know if people actually did that. My mom was horrified when I asked, but because I knew I could talk to her she was able to put it in the proper, or at least the best context possible. What is going to happen when one of her child’s classmates brings up their gay sibling or uncle? Or when one of them sees something inappropriate on TV and talks about it? Or overhears something they shouldn’t? The teachers and administrators could all be living saints, but it is no guarantee that every single child out of the hundreds that go there will all only be exposed to wholesome, age appropriate things.

Your mom sounds like a neat woman. And my husband used very similar definitions when teaching our son. I think you will make a great mom when you have children!

 

[Kamaduck]

I think a sign in the window is a good idea:

NO FLOWERS FOR GAYS!

or better yet…

NO PAINSIES FOR PANSIES!

The causes me to question whether you are serious, but I’ll say this anyway. We are called to love and respect others, and using slurs certainly doesn’t accomplish that. There is a difference between telling someone they are wrong and name-calling.

There is so much sarcasm on this thread right now that it’s starting to be hard to tell who is serious. If this WAS sarcasm, sorry. My sarcasm detector is broken.

 

[jmcrae]

I was referring obviously to invalid remarriage, and I do think it’s the same. Is providing the flowers for an adulterous relationship any better than providing the flowers for a same-sex one?

I agree. Integrity demands that we treat all unlawful marriages the same way. There is nothing “worse” about homosexual marriages.

 

[yellowbird]

The causes me to question whether you are serious, but I’ll say this anyway. We are called to love and respect others, and using slurs certainly doesn’t accomplish that. There is a difference between telling someone they are wrong and name-calling.

There is so much sarcasm on this thread right now that it’s starting to be hard to tell who is serious. If this WAS sarcasm, sorry. My sarcasm detector is broken.

I was being sarcastic.

A previous poster suggested that when selling flowers, a shop owner need not concern himself with the sinfulness of the heterosexual couple (because their sin is not obvious) but he can ascertain that the gay couple, by virtue of their gayness, are in fact sinful, and if said shop owner didn’t want to sell them flowers, that was well and good, in an effort to protect the sanctity of marriage.

I was imaging the nasty confrontation at the counter when the shop owner refused to sell flowers to the gay couple, because of their gayness. Hence the sign in the window: NO FLOWERS FOR GAYS. The no pansies for pansies was simply a creative play on words.

It would however be useful in getting the point across to shop owners who felt like the poster I mentioned. Although I can’t imagine him staying in business very long. As it was pointed out, most everyone knows and loves someone who is gay - and I’d like to think most reasonable people don’t believe in discrimination of any sort - including that of sinners. Even REALLY bad sinners like the gays.



I’m being sarcatic again.

 

[jmcrae]

I was being sarcastic.

A previous poster suggested that when selling flowers, a shop owner need not concern himself with the sinfulness of the heterosexual couple (because their sin is not obvious) but he can ascertain that the gay couple, by virtue of their gayness, are in fact sinful, and if said shop owner didn’t want to sell them flowers, that was well and good, in an effort to protect the sanctity of marriage.

I doubt that flower shop owners would know whether a homosexual person had entered his establishment, or what relationship he had with the person he was buying flowers for.

It would however be useful in getting the point across to shop owners who felt like the poster I mentioned. Although I can’t imagine him staying in business very long. As it was pointed out, most everyone knows and loves someone who is gay -

And the people we love can do no wrong - therefore, there is nothing wrong with homosexual behaviour if it is being done by someone we love.

 

[JackieMom]

I agree. Integrity demands that we treat all unlawful marriages the same way. There is nothing “worse” about homosexual marriages.

Yes, and those invalid hetero “marriages” often include prior children that are theown into a situation where “family” includes Mom’s new stud or Dad’s mistress. It’s all very sad.

 

[jmcrae]

Yes, and those invalid hetero “marriages” often include prior children that are theown into a situation where “family” includes Mom’s new stud or Dad’s mistress. It’s all very sad.

It’s a terrible situation for the children, for sure!

 

[yellowbird]

And the people we love can do no wrong - therefore, there is nothing wrong with homosexual behaviour if it is being done by someone we love.

Speak for yourself.

Every single person I know and love is a sinner.