That Old Freemason Question...

[GEddie]

It is not complicated at all.
The Church states you cannot be Catholic and a Freemason. Your obedience is to the Church.

While some like to see nuances everywhere; this is one issue where they are just not there.

ICXC NIKA

 

[AlanFromWichita]

It is not complicated at all.
The Church states you cannot be Catholic and a Freemason. Your obedience is to the Church.

I don’t see that’s what the poster was addressing. To me it seemed the issue was in, how specific is the Church about what constitutes “being a member?”

If I let my membership lapse but don’t feel remorse at having been a valid member in the past, am I still spiritually a member? What if I wish I were a member but don’t because of the Church teachings or maybe there just isn’t a lodge in our area. Seems to me Jesus would say that the intent to be a member is just as bad as being one – given of course that we agree being a member is “bad.”

So if the Church stands on its ability to infallibly discern that people are in the state of mortal sin by their group membership, I think the Church must be very careful to define precisely what group membership means. After all, it seems we consider everyone in the mystical Church whether there is a piece of paper saying they are Catholic or not. For myself, I think the work they do with hospitals and children and all is wonderful – does that mean that I am encouraging their existence and therefore my thoughts are sinful? If Jesus compares killing with harboring bitterness toward or insulting a brother, wouldn’t it stand to reason that because I think they do good work and that I participate in using the things they built that I am their de-facto supporter and therefore I am in a state of mortal sin?
111
The problem is that when we parse people’s souls by what group they belonged to, we need to know what they belonged to at heart, not on paper. Right? And if not, then tell me why Jesus told scores of stories denouncing group identification as a method of discerning the state of souls?

OK, so the Church has authority to say that we will, in fact, observe this one particular worldly group membership as indicative of souls. Fine. Then she had better be very specific about what she means. For every Freemason that is officially a member, there may be 10 who would like to be but don’t become one – who knows? I should think that it would be leaving those people out, if we fail to find them in a state of mortal sin for their pining.

Alan

 

[FCEGM]

It is not complicated at all.
The Church states you cannot be Catholic and a Freemason. Your obedience is to the Church.

:yup: It’s very simple; those who don’t want to accept the simplicity, though, look for complications to avoid what must be done.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

:yup: It’s very simple; those who don’t want to accept the simplicity, though, look for complications to avoid what must be done.

We do like simplicity, don’t we?

• Do the crime and you’ll do the time.
• Three strikes and you’re out.
• You can’t compare apples with oranges.

Or is a better term, “simplification”? In engineering I might called these “first order approximations,” or even “zeroth order.”

If it’s so simple, then please give us the simple answers: :yup:

1.) If I went through three degrees, but my membership lapsed because I didn’t pay my dues, and I objectively in a state of mortal sin according to this “simple” teaching?

2.) If I wished all my life I could join but didn’t for whatever reason, am I objectively in a state of mortal sin?

3.) If I became a member because of outside pressure from others because without having done so there were no customers for my services and I can’t feed my kids with the work of my own hands – thus it is entirely a business decision – am I objectively in a state of mortal sin?

4.) What if I loathed the Freemasons, but joined them as a mole as part of a plan for me and my associates to destroy the organization from the inside? Does that mean I’m objectively in the state of mortal sin because after all, I am a member? I’ve joined organizations I didn’t like before, so I could learn insider information and decide for myself whether I’m right about their internal issues. NAACP comes to mind; I joined them and was a card-carrying member, when I was on a municipal task force looking into their allegations of improper city hiring. I went to their meetings so I could sit among them and walk in their moccasins before either judging them or trying to redirect city resources to help them. As political conservative I disliked the group’s activities going into it, but I learned more by being a member then I could have learned by any number of years of study from the outside. If I had died before my annual dues ran out, would I have died a member? What if I had died after my dues ran out?

5.) Am I in the state of mortal sin for questioning this teaching? Or at least the teaching as it’s been represented in this thread? You know what? I think I will bring it up in my next meeting with my pastor – we meet every few weeks so he can help me stay on track. I’ll ask him if I need to confess the fact that I’m standing up for these people I don’t know but whom the Church allegedly says are condemned if they don’t repent.

Dualistic black/white thinking does a poor job of representing Christ’s wishes. If so, then would not Jesus have sinned by even talking to the woman at the well, much less allowed her to answer Him back? What if a man dies and we say to Jesus, “this person was caught as a Freemason member, and was unrepentant for being one right through his last breath. He has been amply warned that according to the Church, if he died while still a member, his soul will go to hell. What say You?”

I guess Jesus would shrug and say, “well, I did say that what is bound on earth will be bound in heaven, so I guess my hands are tied, and I must send this wretched soul to hell.”

Think Thomas Aquinas here. It is never simple to just make a sweeping statement and let it go at that. He may come down on y’all’s side of something like this, but not without at least considering that there are many complications in making such a pronouncement over the souls of worldly-defined groups of people.

Alan

 

[ess1113a]

I think this guy has alot in common with some posters here !

newson6.com/story/19261670/competency-trial-underway-in-tulsa-county-courthouse-shooting

 

[Bl_Pope_Pius_IX]

I think this guy has alot in common with some posters here !

newson6.com/story/19261670/competency-trial-underway-in-tulsa-county-courthouse-shooting

Like who? And please, can you respond to my last post concerning how I supported and endorsed what the Sister who sent white powder to people? You never got around to doing so.

 

[thistle]

We do like simplicity, don’t we?

• Do the crime and you’ll do the time.
• Three strikes and you’re out.
• You can’t compare apples with oranges.

Or is a better term, “simplification”? In engineering I might called these “first order approximations,” or even “zeroth order.”

If it’s so simple, then please give us the simple answers: :yup:

1.) If I went through three degrees, but my membership lapsed because I didn’t pay my dues, and I objectively in a state of mortal sin according to this “simple” teaching?

2.) If I wished all my life I could join but didn’t for whatever reason, am I objectively in a state of mortal sin?

3.) If I became a member because of outside pressure from others because without having done so there were no customers for my services and I can’t feed my kids with the work of my own hands – thus it is entirely a business decision – am I objectively in a state of mortal sin?

4.) What if I loathed the Freemasons, but joined them as a mole as part of a plan for me and my associates to destroy the organization from the inside? Does that mean I’m objectively in the state of mortal sin because after all, I am a member? I’ve joined organizations I didn’t like before, so I could learn insider information and decide for myself whether I’m right about their internal issues. NAACP comes to mind; I joined them and was a card-carrying member, when I was on a municipal task force looking into their allegations of improper city hiring. I went to their meetings so I could sit among them and walk in their moccasins before either judging them or trying to redirect city resources to help them. As political conservative I disliked the group’s activities going into it, but I learned more by being a member then I could have learned by any number of years of study from the outside. If I had died before my annual dues ran out, would I have died a member? What if I had died after my dues ran out?

5.) Am I in the state of mortal sin for questioning this teaching? Or at least the teaching as it’s been represented in this thread? You know what? I think I will bring it up in my next meeting with my pastor – we meet every few weeks so he can help me stay on track. I’ll ask him if I need to confess the fact that I’m standing up for these people I don’t know but whom the Church allegedly says are condemned if they don’t repent.

Dualistic black/white thinking does a poor job of representing Christ’s wishes. If so, then would not Jesus have sinned by even talking to the woman at the well, much less allowed her to answer Him back? What if a man dies and we say to Jesus, “this person was caught as a Freemason member, and was unrepentant for being one right through his last breath. He has been amply warned that according to the Church, if he died while still a member, his soul will go to hell. What say You?”

I guess Jesus would shrug and say, “well, I did say that what is bound on earth will be bound in heaven, so I guess my hands are tied, and I must send this wretched soul to hell.”

Think Thomas Aquinas here. It is never simple to just make a sweeping statement and let it go at that. He may come down on y’all’s side of something like this, but not without at least considering that there are many complications in making such a pronouncement over the souls of worldly-defined groups of people.

Alan

You are simply getting hysterical. Are you going to cite every possible permutation in the universe and ask if its mortal sin??

Its very simple. You cannot be a Catholic and a Freemason.
That means you cannot be a member or associate with its activities. What is hard to understand about that?
If you are a Freemason but let you membership lapse but are unrepentant for having committed the mortal sin of being a mason then you remain in a state of mortal sin.

Also, for anyone to say wait a minute but the Freemasons do a lot of good for the community have they ever stopped to ask why.
I liken the Freemasons to the drug cartels. They build hospitals and schools for communities and such like but its not because they have any interest in doing good. They are deceiving and manipulating the people into supporting them so they can carry on with their evil activities.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

You are simply getting hysterical. Are you going to cite every possible permutation in the universe and ask if its mortal sin??

If it is really so “simple,” then you should be able to simply apply it to each and every possible permutation.

This is a problem I have with people who say that a rule is simple, and cut and dried. Church teachings are never like that. Even “thou shalt not kill” sounds pretty darn simple but has a gazillion disclaimers, explanations and qualifiers. What makes this teaching so different?

If a rule is supposedly an absolute rule, that means it must work for all permutations. Further, if someone is to chide me by saying it’s simpler than that, but cannot answer my specific questions, then they fail to demonstrate that it is simple by failing to apply it to the very real situations at hand.

I mean, we have lengthy discussions here about how a baby MUST have a valid baptism which requires certain things, but turns out you don’t really need it “officially” because you have baptism by desire, etc. Are you telling me you cannot be a Freemason by desire? What if you don’t qualify but dream of being one?

You cannot make a hard and fast absolute rule, and go around telling people they’re going to hell, if you cannot consider the different permutations.

It’s like the engineering “miracle” that was the Tacoma Narrows Bridge. The bridge worked fine for 99.999% of all the wind conditions that might have occurred. But they failed to design it to withstand one certain “permutation” of wind conditions, and destruction ensued.

So if you’re going to tell me it’s simple, then answer my questions. If it is a matter of pride that you don’t want to “play my game” by considering these combinations, then IMO you have neutered your own claim whether it be because you are wrong or not.

Alan

 

[ess1113a]

Like who? And please, can you respond to my last post concerning how I supported and endorsed what the Sister who sent white powder to people? You never got around to doing so.

Are you so conceited and self centered that EVERY post is directed at you? You need serious help and counseling. I never used any name associated with my post but you interpreted it as being directed at you. That is truly sad and you have my sympathy and prayers.

 

[thistle]

If it is really so “simple,” then you should be able to simply apply it to each and every possible permutation.

This is a problem I have with people who say that a rule is simple, and cut and dried. Church teachings are never like that. Even “thou shalt not kill” sounds pretty darn simple but has a gazillion disclaimers, explanations and qualifiers. What makes this teaching so different?

If a rule is supposedly an absolute rule, that means it must work for all permutations. Further, if someone is to chide me by saying it’s simpler than that, but cannot answer my specific questions, then they fail to demonstrate that it is simple by failing to apply it to the very real situations at hand.

I mean, we have lengthy discussions here about how a baby MUST have a valid baptism which requires certain things, but turns out you don’t really need it “officially” because you have baptism by desire, etc. Are you telling me you cannot be a Freemason by desire? What if you don’t qualify but dream of being one?

You cannot make a hard and fast absolute rule, and go around telling people they’re going to hell, if you cannot consider the different permutations.

It’s like the engineering “miracle” that was the Tacoma Narrows Bridge. The bridge worked fine for 99.999% of all the wind conditions that might have occurred. But they failed to design it to withstand one certain “permutation” of wind conditions, and destruction ensued.

So if you’re going to tell me it’s simple, then answer my questions. If it is a matter of pride that you don’t want to “play my game” by considering these combinations, then IMO you have neutered your own claim whether it be because you are wrong or not.

Alan

There is a hard and fast rule here. A Catholic cannot be a Freemason.
Another hard and fast rule is that anyone dying in a state of mortal sin goes immediately to Hell.

You are simply trying to find a loophole for a person to justify continuing to sin.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

There is a hard and fast rule here. A Catholic cannot be a Freemason.
Another hard and fast rule is that anyone dying in a state of mortal sin goes immediately to Hell.

You are simply trying to find a loophole for a person to justify continuing to sin.

Nope. Just looking for the operative definition of “being” a Freemason we mean. To quit would one have to adopt some different state of mind, formally renounce, just quit participating? You know … like we say the mystical Church is really all people, so Catholic truth applies to all humans whether or not they are actually registered on paper, right? Just looking for some satisfaction to my cravings for technical information.

Personally what I care about most about other people in the congregation is that they like to sing the hymns and Mass parts as I play them. I leave it up to you guys to figure out all the stuff like who’s in and who’s out.

Alan

 

[Bl_Pope_Pius_IX]

Are you so conceited and self centered that EVERY post is directed at you? You need serious help and counseling. I never used any name associated with my post but you interpreted it as being directed at you. That is truly sad and you have my sympathy and prayers.

Hello. Firstly, thank you for your prayers. I truily appreciate them.

As to me needing serious help and counseling, no. I disagree. To be perfectly honest, you have noauthority to advise me to seek such mental assistance. Thus, I reject it.

You were addressing me when you said the following:

Now I am shocked. Sounds like something you would have endorsed and supported based upon your diatribes here.

(Emphasis mine) Then, I responded with this:

Can you show me where I “endorsed and supported” whaat that Sister did? I quoted the Popes, what is so provocative about that?

You still haven’t responded on how my diatribes endorsed what that Sister did.

So, when I ask this:

Like who? And please, can you respond to my last post concerning how I supported and endorsed what the Sister who sent white powder to people? You never got around to doing so.

I am simply asking a question asking you to clarify an earlier post of yours. If I misunderstood, say so. But to say I am “conceited and self centered” is very misleading since you did repeatedly refer to me (admittedly, as “you” and “your”) in your original response to me.

Your accusations are very unbecoming.

 

[thistle]

Nope. Just looking for the operative definition of “being” a Freemason we mean. ** To quit would one have to adopt some different state of mind, formally renounce, just quit participating?** You know … like we say the mystical Church is really all people, so Catholic truth applies to all humans whether or not they are actually registered on paper, right? Just looking for some satisfaction to my cravings for technical information.

Personally what I care about most about other people in the congregation is that they like to sing the hymns and Mass parts as I play them. I leave it up to you guys to figure out all the stuff like who’s in and who’s out.

Alan

This would not only require formally ceasing to be a member but going to Confession and being sincerely repentant for having committed such a mortal sin and declaring no intention to have any association with the Freemasons (either membership or activities) in the future. How is that hard to grasp?

Simply ceasing to be a member is not sufficient. If you do that but are not sorry for having committed such a mortal sin and do not go to Confession then you would remain in a state of mortal sin.
Its like any mortal sin. Even if you don’t repeat the sin you remain in a state of mortal sin until you confess and are sorry for having committed the sin.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

This would not only require formally ceasing to be a member but going to Confession and being sincerely repentant for having committed such a mortal sin and declaring no intention to have any association with the Freemasons (either membership or activities) in the future. How is that hard to grasp?

Simply ceasing to be a member is not sufficient. If you do that but are not sorry for having committed such a mortal sin and do not go to Confession then you would remain in a state of mortal sin.
Its like any mortal sin. Even if you don’t repeat the sin you remain in a state of mortal sin until you confess and are sorry for having committed the sin.

Thank you. That’s what I wanted to know about your point of view! :tiphat:

Alan

 

[ess1113a]

Hello. Firstly, thank you for your prayers. I truily appreciate them.

As to me needing serious help and counseling, no. I disagree. To be perfectly honest, you have noauthority to advise me to seek such mental assistance. Thus, I reject it.

You were addressing me when you said the following:

(Emphasis mine) Then, I responded with this:

You still haven’t responded on how my diatribes endorsed what that Sister did.

So, when I ask this:

I am simply asking a question asking you to clarify an earlier post of yours. If I misunderstood, say so. But to say I am “conceited and self centered” is very misleading since you did repeatedly refer to me (admittedly, as “you” and “your”) in your original response to me.

Your accusations are very unbecoming.

Your attitude is both unbecoming for a Catholic and a Christian and I choose to disassociate myself from you for those reasons.
Blessings and I feel you need them more than ever.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I think closely related to the group identity mindset that Jesus was so focused on destroying, is taking “package deals” on thoughts.

For example, we put -ism on everything, and it becomes the target. We are largely talking past one another because we are more interested in finding categories than dealing with specific logical issues.

In this thread alone, for example, we have used the following broad brushes to paint arguments we are discussing:

indifferentism
Catholicism
protestantism
Druidism
Universalism
relativism
modernism
communism
skepticism

So our basic strategy is to assign our opponents to an -ism team that we can then all agree upon as being wrong. Therefore the opponent, being associated with that -ism group, is wrong in any way that I – not being a member of the same -ism group – do not agree with, and no counter to the actual points being made are required.

All people of logic and reason who have passed before us roll in the grave when that happens, and those alive will join them soon.

It’s like saying, “What a lovely eastern sunrise.” And you say, “you look to the east so you must be talking about New Ageism. Well, since you’re new age, I am honor bound to reject anything you have to say. Therefore I cannot accept that the sun rises in the east or that today is wonderful, unless declared so by truthism for which I speak.”

Or more succinctly: My -ism can beat up your -ism. There was a 1948 political cartoon about isms.

Alan

 

[beehumble]

The question has been answered - Catholics are not permitted to be masons - and supporting documentation was provided int he first few posts.

So enough already.

So when will the moderators shut the thread down due to the question having being answered? That is the only remaining question here.

God bless you.

 

[Bl_Pope_Pius_IX]

Your attitude is both unbecoming for a Catholic and a Christian and I choose to disassociate myself from you for those reasons.
Blessings and I feel you need them more than ever.

Indeed, we all need blessings.

You still haven’t answered any of my points, though.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

The question has been answered - Catholics are not permitted to be masons - and supporting documentation was provided int he first few posts.

So enough already.

So when will the moderators shut the thread down due to the question having being answered? That is the only remaining question here.

God bless you.

Shhhh! :nunchuk:

Please do not discuss moderator actions. It is against forum rules. (hee hee caught ya)

Alan

 

[ess1113a]

Indeed, we all need blessings.

You still haven’t answered any of my points, though.

You really havent asked any points, thats the most confusing part of listening to your pointless diatribes.
Hope you had a blessed Assumption.