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tabcom
Guest
Thank you. I do appreciate your participation within the forum.
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pprimeau1976
Guest
Thank God I’m Catholic!!!
In the Catholic church we focus on the end-times only 4 weeks out of the year. Why? Because how things end is not important! Sure, we need to be aware of things and influences that are anti-Christian, but we shouldn’t care who the anti-Christ is. That pervasive attitude is the kind of attitude that only cared about who the prostitute was or who the leper was in the time of Jesus. I think we all know what Jesus’ attitude was about that.
I hear it said time and again; WWJD - What would Jesus do? I know what Jesus wouldn’t do. He wouldn’t care who the anti-Christ was for he didn’t even care about not knowing the day or the hour - he was fine with that. Why? Because he knew that today’s worries were for today and tomorrows worries were for tomorrow BECAUSE HE TRUSTED IN THE ONE WHO SENT HIM!!! Worrying about who the anti-Christ is shows an utter lack of trust in God!
My suggestion to anyone who watches WAY to much Jack Van Impe, just stop and say - Jesus, I trust in you. You will be just fine after that.
In the Catholic church we focus on the end-times only 4 weeks out of the year. Why? Because how things end is not important! Sure, we need to be aware of things and influences that are anti-Christian, but we shouldn’t care who the anti-Christ is. That pervasive attitude is the kind of attitude that only cared about who the prostitute was or who the leper was in the time of Jesus. I think we all know what Jesus’ attitude was about that.
I hear it said time and again; WWJD - What would Jesus do? I know what Jesus wouldn’t do. He wouldn’t care who the anti-Christ was for he didn’t even care about not knowing the day or the hour - he was fine with that. Why? Because he knew that today’s worries were for today and tomorrows worries were for tomorrow BECAUSE HE TRUSTED IN THE ONE WHO SENT HIM!!! Worrying about who the anti-Christ is shows an utter lack of trust in God!
My suggestion to anyone who watches WAY to much Jack Van Impe, just stop and say - Jesus, I trust in you. You will be just fine after that.
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pprimeau1976
Guest
If I can wander from my own advise a bit. A way to think of what the anti-Christ was or is, you can look at his enemies in the Bible that were already anti-Christ and I think the anti-Christ will essentially be a person who tries to use man’s devices to solve man’s spiritual emptiness:
Think of the Pharisees, the Zealots, the Saducees, the Romans, the Herods, the unrepentant Rich Man, the unrepentant Thief, Judas Iscariot…and roll them into one person. It makes you think, doesn’t it. WELL STOP!!!
Think of the Pharisees, the Zealots, the Saducees, the Romans, the Herods, the unrepentant Rich Man, the unrepentant Thief, Judas Iscariot…and roll them into one person. It makes you think, doesn’t it. WELL STOP!!!
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tabcom
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**John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory.
- glory - Greek: doxa - praise, honour, worship
Psalms 12:3 The lord shall cut off all flattering lips and the tongue that speaketh proud things.
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* cut off - Hebrew: Karath - destroy or consume
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* proud - Greek: huperephanos meaning to appear above others from:
* huper - over or above
* phaino - lighten, shine, appear or be seen
* resisteth - antitassomai - originally a military term in Greek meaning "to rage in battle against" or "to make war with"
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pprimeau1976
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I don’t blame you for thinking that Catholicism is prideful. I think all Christians are subject to it. And, considering history, I don’t blame you for your position. But let’s be honest for a moment. I probably said the opposite of what many non-denominational Christians have thought: “Thank God I’m NOT Catholic. Thank God I’m NOT Methodist. Thank God I’m NOT Lutheran.” Is it pride to be sure of your convictions?
You are rejoicing in the fact that you think you know the truth too. I am happy that you think your happy, but then again I am sad, because I know you are missing out on alot. That’s life though I guess.
You probably think that the Catholic Church and the pope and the bishops are alot like Pharisees. I think like that sometimes about some of our leaders. But I know how to distinguish the Church from it’s leaders. Let me ask you this. Did the attitudes of the Pharisees affect the truths that they were entrusted to protect? Did Jesus condemn Judaism as totally corrupt because many (not all) of its leadership were prideful? I think you know the correct answer to that, unless you are an anti-Semite.
And Please…don’t call the Church anti-semitic because so and so did this against the Jews and so and so did that against the Jews and they happened to be Catholic. It is wrong, the Church says it’s wrong, and we happen to all be sinners.
In conclusion, please read all of my posts before you judge me to be prideful and be careful not to throw away the baby with the bathwater because you would be throwing away something VERY precious.
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NotWorthy
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“Thank God I’m Catholic” is prideful?!?
I thank God constantly for leaving behind a Church to teach His ways, and I am so thankful that I’m a part of that Church. How does it make me prideful? I realize that just because I’m Catholic, doesn’t in any way mean I’m automatically going to heaven.
If I was filled with Pride, I would think that I can “make it on my own” when talking of my Salvation. The fact that I need to rely on the Church that Jesus left to fulfill His will, to me, smacks of recognizing my own shortcomings.
Obedience rarely springs from pride. I would say it’s quite the opposite.
P.S. Sorry for going along with this “off-topic” line.
I thank God constantly for leaving behind a Church to teach His ways, and I am so thankful that I’m a part of that Church. How does it make me prideful? I realize that just because I’m Catholic, doesn’t in any way mean I’m automatically going to heaven.
If I was filled with Pride, I would think that I can “make it on my own” when talking of my Salvation. The fact that I need to rely on the Church that Jesus left to fulfill His will, to me, smacks of recognizing my own shortcomings.
Obedience rarely springs from pride. I would say it’s quite the opposite.
P.S. Sorry for going along with this “off-topic” line.
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spauline
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Dear Pprime,
You are oversimplifying the subject of the apocalypse. It is not really about either the typical Fundamentalists’ view, nor really the typical Catholic view, which is preterism. It is rather about unveiling the mystery of the complete spiritual and historical process of the Redemption of the entirety of humanity, and especially as to how, spiritually, Christ shall complete His Plan of Redemption in and through the Catholic Church. hence, part of tabcom’s objections are legitimate.
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tabcom
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**pprimeau1976, thank you for a thoughtful response to my previous post. It was your use of three exclaimation points that caused me to react the way I did.
I interpeted your post as being prideful because you explicitly state that because you are catholic, you do not need to study --**
Luke 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.
Mathetes (disciple) comes from our word math. To learn mathematics or the Word of God one must go by the rules of the book only. Self-opinions and traditions are of no consequence. The cross is daily. A man must contradict his very nature: self indulgence, self esteem, self importance, self advancement. This is the mark of the beast. Self must die and Christ must live in us if we are to follow Him, otherwise a man cannot be His disciple.
I do appreciate your participation in this discussion.**
I interpeted your post as being prideful because you explicitly state that because you are catholic, you do not need to study --**
**That is not enough. As I stated earlier within this thread, there are 2 Jesus’ in the NT (post #35). If you do not study the character (mark) of the other Jesus, you will be suduced by it and led astray.
Luke 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.
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* disciple - mathetes - a learner, pupilI do appreciate your participation in this discussion.**
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
This is precisely why you need to study Revelation further…it is not simply about how things end. It is the Word of God intended to teach you TODAY about Him, in order for you to more deeply to know Him, love Him, and serve Him TODAY.If it were not important, then I gather the Holy Spirit would not have inspired St. John to assert its importance.
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pprimeau1976
Guest
I am not condoning not studying Revelation. And I don;t think I talked about just Revelation. I talked about the end times which is more than just Revelation. If I said that or alluded to it, I didn’t mean it. What I was saying is that we should essentially focus on the end 1/12 of the time, during the season of Advent. I think that there is WAY too much focus on the end of the world. Take this section of the Nicene Creed for instance:
If it were not important, then I gather the Holy Spirit would not have inspired St. John to assert its importance.
That’s pretty much how much the Church says we *need *to know about the end times.
It’s tough enough just to be a holy person. If I am a holy person, would I need to concern myself with the nitty gritty details as to how it will end.
Essentially, if I focus on living the Gospel and living a holy life and try to focus on informing my conscience - will I even need to worry about who the Anti-Christ is? I mean if I focus on really knowing Christ, won’t I naturally know the anti-Christ?
And since when is Trusting in Jesus not enough? I am not saying trust him and not live his Gospel. Live his Gospel and trust in Him. He won’t let you down.
His teachings were simple: BE WATCHFUL AND BE READY. OK, I am watching, and frankly with everything going on in the world today, I find myself like a kid in the back seat: ARE WE THERE YET?? But it is not for me to know or even attempt to know if Jesus doesn’t know.
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pprimeau1976
Guest
I looked at my statement and I stand by it. I said how things end is not important. The important thing to know is that there will be an end and a final judgement. But we should not be concerned as to how it all will go down.
Let me put it another way. Is it more important to focus on the end times or to focus on how to “love thy neighbor as yourself.” How much time should you devote to what?
Let me put it another way. Is it more important to focus on the end times or to focus on how to “love thy neighbor as yourself.” How much time should you devote to what?
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spauline
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Dear P Prime,
You have the right idea in that knowing “political scenarios of the very last World War”, which is what Fundamentalists usually want to know, is not legit. Because once the near totality of humanity falls into an incurable apostasy, the horrors of self-destruction are inevitable fruit. Knowing specifically how it will take place (like first Germany will blow up France, and then Russia will invade China, etc…
) is, admittedly, irrelevant, because, regardless, humanity will approach self-destruction. In fact, we know that if God simply sat back, humanity would destroy itself.But i don’t know if you realize this, but that is just a Fundamentalist stigma. I think that many Catholics assume that because the Fundamentalists usually ask irrelevant types of Q’s about the apoc, that therefore ANY Q’s about the apoc are irrelevant, which is not true.
As I’ve stated, there are deeper questions of the apoc that will eventually be addressed dogmatically by the Church. More specifically, there is in fact this very issue of how the Church shall RECOGNIZE when humanity gets into an incurable spiritual depravity. That is obviously a deeply spiritual and psychological question that implies that there must be some spiritual structure to Savlation History and, in particular, the Age of the Church, that will enable the Church to recognize, first, when God will have given the fullness of His Redemption to humanity through the Church, and then secondly, when humanity shall turn, as a near whole, away from this Redemption in an irrevocable manner.
So I think you need to recongize this, and not just casually dismiss the Apoc as utterly irrelevant, which it is not.
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Exalt
Guest
I’m a teaching assistant for a class on John’s Revelation.
The prevailing scholarly position is that the beasts of Revelation 13 are both Nero and Domition. The beast came out of the sea - Rome was a sea-faring nation. The blasphemous names are the divine names that the emperors of Rome took. There’s a comparison to Daniel, in which the beasts of Daniel are clearly symbols of oppressive nations of that day. The beast has a “moral wound” - Nero killed himself by a stab wound to the neck. The beast’s wound was healed - it was a popular idea, especially in the east, that Nero would be re-incarnated. Domition was the re-incarnation - and was even worse than Nero.
And so on. I highly recommend Mitchell Reddish’s commentary on Revelation for a more thorough look.
amazon.com/Revelation-Smyth-Helwys-Bible-Commentary/dp/1573120871
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tabcom
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**Exalt . . . . welcome to the discussion.
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They are here until the end of time.**
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**As stated in Post #34: The 2nd beast are false prophets. They stand oppose to Christ’s teachings. They teach the doctrine of the devil (1st beast).
They are here until the end of time.**
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tabcom
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**This is metaphoric language. ‘Out of the sea’ is synonymous with the abyss. It is the place of no knowledge.
Isa 63:11
Then they remembered the days of old and Moses, his servant; Where is he who brought up out of the sea the shepherd of his flock? Where is he who put his holy spirit in their midst;
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Whose glorious arm was the guide at Moses’ right; Who divided the waters before them, winning for himself eternal renown;
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Who led them without stumbling through the depths like horses in the open country,
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Like cattle going down into the plain, the spirit of the LORD guiding them? Thus you led your people, bringing glory to your name.
When Jesus cast out self in Mt 8:32, for where did it go, back to the sea -
Mt 8:32
And He said to (self), “Go!” And (self) came out and went into the swine, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the sea and perished in the waters.
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tabcom
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**
blasphemous - To stink in the nostrils of God.
name - Greek onoma (on’-om-ah) Hebrew: shem - authority; honor
Putting ones trust in the authority of anyone that does not confess Jesus is God and that you don’t need to keep His commandments to get to heaven; stinks in the nostrils of God.
It is the antithesis of
Mt 12:21
“AND IN HIS NAME THE GENTILES WILL HOPE.”
or “by Jesus’ authority we find trust”.**
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tabcom
Guest
**IMHO, you need to stop viewing the Book of Revelation through the wrong end of the telescope. Flip it around. Stop looking into the big literal lense and start examining the Book through the smaller metaphorical lense. **
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NotWorthy
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So much of Revelations’ signs are based on Daniel’s Book. I understand that when things come from “out of the sea” it means the gentile nations.
I’d be careful making a “dogmatic” statement on how to interpret anything in Revelation. Revelation is like onions, it’s got many layers. I call this the “Shrek Affect”!
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tabcom
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Yeah, that works too.
With over 600 references to the Hebrew Bible, a lot of tears could be shed in pulling away the layers.
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pprimeau1976
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Thank you for your kind reply. I understand that the book of Revelation has value and any one who has read Scott Hahn’s Lamb’s Supper can attest to it. I also understand that there are deeper questions for the Church to figure out. But who within the Church should be concerned with trying to figure it out? Should I be concerned? I am just an IT technician and a husband and a father. I am not a theologian entrusted by the Cht urch, nor am I a bishop entrusted by the Church. I guess all I am saying is, let the right people worry about the mysteries that still need to be unraveled. I am not saying that the sheep should never focus, I just don’t think we have to focus on it all the time.Dear P Prime,
You have the right idea in that knowing “political scenarios of the very last World War”, which is what Fundamentalists usually want to know, is not legit. Because once the near totality of humanity falls into an incurable apostasy, the horrors of self-destruction are inevitable fruit. Knowing specifically how it will take place (like first Germany will blow up France, and then Russia will invade China, etc…
But i don’t know if you realize this, but that is just a Fundamentalist stigma. I think that many Catholics assume that because the Fundamentalists usually ask irrelevant types of Q’s about the apoc, that therefore ANY Q’s about the apoc are irrelevant, which is not true.
As I’ve stated, there are deeper questions of the apoc that will eventually be addressed dogmatically by the Church. More specifically, there is in fact this very issue of how the Church shall RECOGNIZE when humanity gets into an incurable spiritual depravity. That is obviously a deeply spiritual and psychological question that implies that there must be some spiritual structure to Savlation History and, in particular, the Age of the Church, that will enable the Church to recognize, first, when God will have given the fullness of His Redemption to humanity through the Church, and then secondly, when humanity shall turn, as a near whole, away from this Redemption in an irrevocable manner.
So I think you need to recongize this, and not just casually dismiss the Apoc as utterly irrelevant, which it is not.
If you don’t think Catholics dwell on it, I should just tell you of my in-laws. Two of my wife’s aunts had a family meeting to discuss somebody’s private revalation of the things that need to come. Alot of it was about some “locutionist” named John Leary who although appears to be a devout traditionalist actually has been censured by the Church. And why - because he preached millenialism and claimed that Jesus said the next pope would be a heretic and not to listen to him.
I guess the whole point of my post would be - we should all know our place. Until by some divine intervention, I become a theologian or until some mega ultra divine intervention comes around and I become a priest and then a bishop or a pope himself, I won’t focus on it - as much.
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