The 33,000 denominations LIE

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Church_Militant said:
Mind your mouth Martin. We do read the Bible. All 73 books of it and I am pretty sure that I know it at least as well (though I suspect better) than you do.

You can reject organized religion if you want to but all that has done is open you up to further modern post reformation errant teachings of men.

As for your allegation that this figure is a lie, prove your case with documented sources, because I have seen the sources that agree with that and are in fact n-Cs. 🤷
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Thank you, thank you, thank you:clapping:
 
Church_Militant said:
Mind your mouth Martin. We do read the Bible. All 73 books of it and I am pretty sure that I know it at least as well (though I suspect better) than you do.

You can reject organized religion if you want to but all that has done is open you up to further modern post reformation errant teachings of men.

As for your allegation that this figure is a lie, prove your case with documented sources, because I have seen the sources that agree with that and are in fact n-Cs. 🤷
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:eek: You seem, militant, about church stuff. 😛
 
myfavoritmartin said:
Thanks J,
Now if you’d be so willing to call your brothers on the table and ask them not to propagate such an obvious lie…Then I will do the same when I see protestants doing an equally deceitful misrepresentation.😃
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Not true…The fact is that just as with your own faith community. there are so many “independent” and “Non-denominational” communities that the glaring fact is that (tax rosters aside) the numbers of n-C de-facto communities is more likely far closer to the multiple thousands than any of you guys want to admit.

In the end though it doesn’t matter because all we get is a veritable host of n-C communities all proclaiming that they preach and teach the gospel truth, disagreeing with each other and disputing doctrines.

Catholics are right to be confused as to what the message is when faced with all that diversity. The more one gets into discussions with n-Cs about religion the more messed up they appear and sooner or later they simply say that the other guy is wrong and walk away.

Funny, but that was my opinion of all of them from the outset of that discussion. 🤷
 
There are not 33,000 denominations. Did anyone read that wiki link?

The link claims that there are 38,000 that have been reported but that it can’t be substantiated. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations#cite_note-0

To claim that would almost be on the individual level. Do some people have a denomination of 1? I guess it’s legal. So, no. there are a few mainline denominations and sub groups within those. Those who are in full communion with the Catholic Church don’t use the term denomination but do use the term rite it’s the same thing.

Many different protestant “denominations” are in full communion with one another.

Have you ever heard of the Revised Common Lectionary?: divinity.library.vanderbilt.edu/lectionary/
 
tobinatorstark said:
please provide links and such with your documentation. Quoting this or that without proper documentation makes your claims questionable.
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Tim Staple…
envoymagazine.com/backissues/5.3/nutsandbolts.htm

“But isn’t it also telling that since the ‘Reformation’ just 480 years ago — a reformation claiming sola scriptura as its formal principle — there are now over 26,000 denominations that have derived from that principle? **The 1982 World Christian Encyclopedia **projected in that year that there would be 22,190 denominations by 1985. ‘The present net increase,” it noted, is 270 denominations each year (five new ones a week).’1 If we extend that projection to our time, we have well over 26,000 denominations by now.
 
AND HERE…
catholic.com/thisrock/2007/0701btb.asp

According to Scripture, the Church is the final court of appeal for the people of God in matters of faith, morals, and discipline. It is telling that since the Reformation of almost 500 years ago—a Reformation claiming sola scriptura as its formal principle—there are now over 33,000 Protestant denominations. In John 10:16, Jesus prophesied there would be “one flock, one shepherd.” Reliance on sola scriptura has not been effective in establishing doctrine or authority.
 
No Martin. Show us documentation links that support your own numbers and therefore prove the allegation wrong.
 
Although I wouldn’t call 33,000 a lie, neither would I consider about 500 denominations a lie either.

It just depends on what measuring stick you are using.

My Catholic brethren, it seems like in any debate where the 30,000+ number is thrown out, the point of the whole debate is lost in the squabbling over who has the right number - Wikipedia, Christian Encyclopedia or whoever.

So, what’s more important, the debate? Or how many denominations there are? After all, isn’t 200-500 too many denominations? Isn’t 2? 3?

Its like arguing a Catholic teacher against a Bible (only) christian. You can use Church teaching and history all you want, but you spitting into the wind until you can show them in Scripture. Luckily, my Brothers and Sisters, that’s not hard to do!!! That doesn’t prove Sola Scriptura right. It just allows the debate to move forward!
 
Church_Militant said:
No Martin. Show us documentation links that support your own numbers and therefore prove the allegation wrong.
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The documentation THEY quoted supports MY not THEIR number that is why I am telling you it is deceitful.
Have you read those page of the **World Christian Encyclopedia these guys are quoting? **
I’ll find it for you.
 
Focusing on the actual number is missing the point.

Why are there 200 (or 33,000, or however many there are) denominations if one can discover the truth simply by reading the Bible? If the truth is plainly obvious in scripture, shouldn’t all sola scripturists have the exact same theological beliefs?
 
myfavoritmartin said:
Tim Staple…
envoymagazine.com/backissues/5.3/nutsandbolts.htm

“But isn’t it also telling that since the ‘Reformation’ just 480 years ago — a reformation claiming sola scriptura as its formal principle — there are now over 26,000 denominations that have derived from that principle? **The 1982 World Christian Encyclopedia **projected in that year that there would be 22,190 denominations by 1985. ‘The present net increase,” it noted, is 270 denominations each year (five new ones a week).’1 If we extend that projection to our time, we have well over 26,000 denominations by now.
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myfavoritmartin said:
AND HERE…
catholic.com/thisrock/2007/0701btb.asp

According to Scripture, the Church is the final court of appeal for the people of God in matters of faith, morals, and discipline. It is telling that since the Reformation of almost 500 years ago—a Reformation claiming sola scriptura as its formal principle—there are now over 33,000 Protestant denominations. In John 10:16, Jesus prophesied there would be “one flock, one shepherd.” Reliance on sola scriptura has not been effective in establishing doctrine or authority.
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By this you have proved your own theory wrong. John 10:16 from the Haydock Bible Commentary

Ver. 16. One fold. In the Greek one flock. The signification is the same; that is, there shall be one church of Jews and Gentiles converted. (Witham)

Isn’t that the Church that Christ founded in 33?? To separate from that one Church is to separate from his body. Which we are all called to be members of. If you read the Bible (not the book). The Bible as stated before has 73 books. Catholics don’t accept the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. Protestants do. You post makes it sound that Catholics believe in Sola Scriptura, which is false. If you don’t believe in organized religion how can you make the claims that you claim.
 
This debate thread is not about scripture NW. It is about valid documentation of sources for information.

Like you, I consider the number basically irrelevant. Either way, there are far too many.
 
myfavoritmartin said:
The documentation THEY quoted supports MY not THEIR number that is why I am telling you it is deceitful.
Have you read those page of the **World Christian Encyclopedia these guys are quoting? **
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**I’ll find it for you.**Show me your own sources that support your allegation that it is a lie.

I think you need to retract that remark and prove that they are wrong from your own sources, (something I doubt you’ll be able to do).

Deceit would be knowingly making an untrue statement. Simply being wrong is not deceit either way.

However, supply your documentation or admit that you can’t, that’s the way debate works.
 
Church_Militant said:
This debate thread is not about scripture NW. It is about valid documentation of sources for information.I agree, that’s why I used it as an illustration to show how one small hurdle can overcome crossing over a larger hurdle.
Like you, I consider the number basically irrelevant. Either way, there are far too many.
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Correct! So why let a more important discussion get dragged down in something as irrelevant as 200 or 33,000? Either number means “Too Many have abandoned the Flock for their own traditions of men”.
Stick to the point and get it across!!!
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myfavoritmartin said:
The documentation THEY quoted supports MY not THEIR number that is why I am telling you it is deceitful.
Have you read those page of the **World Christian Encyclopedia these guys are quoting? **
I’ll find it for you.
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catholicconvert.com/Portals/0/Denominations3.pdf
From his own source he quoted, open this and follow the left column down to protestant and across to 2000 and 2005
The respective counts are 8,973 and 9,490

HIS own link proves this is nothing but deception.
 
NotWorthy said:
Although I wouldn’t call 33,000 a lie, neither would I consider about 500 denominations a lie either.

It just depends on what measuring stick you are using.

My Catholic brethren, it seems like in any debate where the 30,000+ number is thrown out, the point of the whole debate is lost in the squabbling over who has the right number - Wikipedia, Christian Encyclopedia or whoever.

So, what’s more important, the debate? Or how many denominations there are? After all, isn’t 200-500 too many denominations? Isn’t 2? 3?

Its like arguing a Catholic teacher against a Bible (only) christian. You can use Church teaching and history all you want, but you spitting into the wind until you can show them in Scripture. Luckily, my Brothers and Sisters, that’s not hard to do!!! That doesn’t prove Sola Scriptura right. It just allows the debate to move forward!
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I agree. Whether the number is 33000, 3300, 330, 33 or 3, it’s still too many, which is the main point. Arguing about the number is often beside the point.

Although, as the OP started this thread specifically about that number, I suppose that for this discussion, getting an accurate number is the focal point.

I suppose I can understand how a Protestant would get irked by the number. 33,000 is such a mind-blowingly large number that, by itself, it impresses upon us how completley divisive protestantism can be. If the number is “only” 500 or so, it doesn’t pack quite the same rhetorical punch.

It’s kind of hard to come up with a firm number that everyone can agree with. What is a “denomination” after all? I know a Baptist couple who left their previous Baptist church for another Baptist church because they were at odds with some aspect of belief. Do we count those two Baptist churches as one denomination: Baptist? Or do we count them as two separate denominations because of their differing beliefs?
 
myfavoritmartin said:
catholicconvert.com/Portals/0/Denominations3.pdf
From his own source he quoted, open this and follow the left column down to protestant and across to 2000 and 2005
The respective counts are 8,973 and 9,490

HIS own link proves this is nothing but deception.
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hmm. Same column for Independent 22,148 and 48,341

Still insufficient source. This doesn’t prove how many overall denominations there are because either you haven’t provided the whole report or they didn’t provide the whole report for you to look at and NO grand total. Plus words are cut off and such in the document that was included, thus making it hard to read
 
Catholicism is not a denomination, as it the the Church founded by Jesus, and the one True Church. Anything that is an off-shoot of Catholicism, or any other Christian religion is referred to as a denomination.
 
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