The abortion debate

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Viki63

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I’m not sure which forum this fits into.
I’m discouraged after an online discussion with some prochoice folks.

I say that once a woman engages in the activity that is designed to produce babies, she takes the risk of becoming pregnant and should allow the child to live.

They say that a woman cannot be “forced” to carry a fetus to term. That no human being has a right to life if it requires the use of someone else’s body. This reduces women to the role of slaves to fetuses. So abortion has to be available.

I don’t know what to say to that mindset. Any suggestions?
 
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Viki63 said:
That no human being has a right to life if it requires the use of someone else’s body.
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I think this is the sentence that distinguishes this post from the others on abortion.
 
Viki63 said:
I don’t know what to say to that mindset. Any suggestions?
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She’s likely obstinate since reasoning takes a lot of selfishness. Becaise of that talking won’t do any good. Plus there’s a tendency for things to get nasty online.
 
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If humans only have a right to live as far as their life doesn’t infringe upon other people, then that right is completely worthless. Rights, by their nature, will supersede other, lesser, needs when threatened. So the discussion would be about which is greater, the right to live, or the right to not be pregnant for nine months.

Also, if a fetuses life is not inviolable when dependent on outside help, then what is stopping them from arguing that anyone who cannot survive on their own can be ignored in good conscience? Young children, disabled people, the sick and elderly, all require the assistance of others to survive, are they then less worthy to live than the rest of us?
 
That which is in the mother does not belong to her-- it belongs to God. She has no right to terminate her pregnancy because God says that murder is a sin. It’s God’s desire that we care for the unborn. He has the right to tell a woman what to do with it.
 
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Disengage and pray for them. They know not what they do. Engagement only causes them, at this point in their beliefs, to dig their heels in.

Don’t forget to pray!
 
A lot of pro choice women are pro choice for a few reasons. They know deep down that abortion is a heinous act and that it is evil.

Many of them have had abortions and know what it is like to see the process and understand how evil it is. To cope with the tremendous guilt they become radically pro choice. It is quite sad, but if you understand that this is the root problem, then maybe you can convince them that it is much better to be freed of guilt by God than to try and cope with it by lashing out at anyone who disagrees.
 
Viki63 said:
They say that a woman cannot be “forced” to carry a fetus to term.
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Not being forced to carry fetus to term.

Just not permitted to murder the fetus.
Viki63 said:
That no human being has a right to life if it requires the use of someone else’s body.
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So all humans on organ donor lists have no right to life?

Also a 6 month old baby still requires use of someone else’s body (breastfeeding, preparing food, etc) so now 6 month old babies have no right to life?
 
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Viki63 said:
They say that a woman cannot be “forced” to carry a fetus to term. That no human being has a right to life if it requires the use of someone else’s body. This reduces women to the role of slaves to fetuses. So abortion has to be available.
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Except that the baby didn’t force itself in there.
The comparison between a baby’s rights and a mother’s rights is unequal. What is at stake in abortion is the mother’s lifestyle, as opposed to the baby’s life.
It is reasonable for society to expect an adult to live temporarily with an inconvenience if the only alternative is killing a child
 
It’s never right to murder a child.
If they want to dehumanize the child and call it a “clump of cells” than you really can’t argue with them to begin with.
 
OP, the dilemma is between the right to life or the right to self autonomy. These two rights are in conflict with each other in the case of pregnancy…and only in the case of pregnancy.

For those that believe the right to life takes precedence over self autonomy, abortion is abhorrent. To those that view self autonomy taking precedence over the right to life, abortion is a necessary evil.

The conversation should focus on why they feel self autonomy should take precedence. You will find it is often selfishness. Should selfish reasons be enough to override the right to life? You may not win any arguments but hopefully, you can get them thinking…and a change of heart may finally take hold.

BTW, I’m an agnostic that is antiabortion!
 
upant said:
there are anti-abortion atheist and agnostics

being against murder isn’t limited to religious people
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Of course. “Freedom of religion” simply means you can believe whatever you want. If you don’t want to believe in anything, that’s fine. If you want to believe killing a fetus is murder, great. If you don’t believe it’s murder, that’s your right.
 
Pattylt said:
You will find it is often selfishness. Should selfish reasons be enough to override the right to life?
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Let’s get away from abortion and tell a story. A ship sinks, and a lot of the survivors get into the lifeboat. There are 30 of them in the lifeboat, and there is maybe an inch or two of freeboard, and the ocean is stormy. Someone swims to the lifeboat and begs to be taken on board. It’s clear to everyone (except the swimmer!) that the lifeboat will sink and they will all drown if they add one more person. They refuse to take the swimmer on board. So. Were they all selfish, or were they all concerned with the other 29 people in the lifeboat? Or was there a mixture of motives not only among the 30 survivors, but within each survivor?

In all these threads (yes, no exceptions) I read the same themes: so-and-so (depends on the issue) is selfish, and therefore evil. That’s quite a jump in logic, and I don’t see Jesus doing that. In fact, we have a lot of stories in the Gospels where Jesus does the opposite: he assumes the best in people.

Let’s say a poor mother is struggling to get by with 6 children. She gets pregnant. She has an abortion. Is she selfish, or is she thinking of the well being of the other 6 children? We don’t know. Probably she doesn’t know. Only God knows. I’m just making a case here for not throwing around the word “selfish” as if we can perfectly judge the mind of another. We can’t. Give them the benefit of the doubt.
 
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Erikaspirit16 said:
Let’s say a poor mother is struggling to get by with 6 children. She gets pregnant. She has an abortion. Is she selfish, or is she thinking of the well being of the other 6 children? We don’t know. Probably she doesn’t know. Only God knows.
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Let’s say a poor father is struggling to get by with 6 children. He robs a store to take food and kills someone. Is he selfish, or is he thinking of the well being of the other 6 children? We don’t know. Probably he doesn’t know. Only God knows.
 
Erikaspirit16 said:
Were they all selfish, or were they all concerned with the other 29 people in the lifeboat? Or was there a mixture of motives not only among the 30 survivors, but within each survivor?
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Would be good comparison w abortion if the 30 survivors caused the storm (adult choosing to have sex causing pregnancy) and thus caused person to need to get on boat. But as you said , storm just happened, hence bogus analogy
 
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I can agree that selfish may not be the best word to use and often women choose abortion for non selfish reasons. I just couldn’t think of a better word at the time! What ever the reason, she is choosing her right to self autonomy over the right to life…she is choosing herself, for multiple reasons or few over the life of the baby.

Catholics can not see the right to self autonomy overriding the right to life. Obviously, many women do. Have you got a better word for it? I’m open to one.
 
I would reframe my discussion. The “if a woman is in a crisis pregnancy, she needs to remember she was asking for it when she had sex” is not a starting point for productive dialogue. It sets the conversation up as adversarial from the beginning.
 
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