The absurdity of atheism

[crowonsnow]

The dogmatism of many atheists gives the impression they **know **God does not exist.

Hi tonyrey,

I’m not sure I get your point in this thread.

God stories are a dime a dozen. Every monotheist is by definition 99.99999999 percent dogmatic atheist because he or she thinks all those other god stories are phony.

So unless you’re telling me you’re not dogmatically atheistic about the thousands of other gods and spirits mentioned throughout human history, I really don’t see how we’re different.

crow

 

[tonyrey]

Hi tonyrey,

I’m not sure I get your point in this thread.

God stories are a dime a dozen. Every monotheist is by definition 99.99999999 percent dogmatic atheist because he or she thinks all those other god stories are phony.
So unless you’re telling me you’re not dogmatically atheistic about the thousands of other gods and spirits mentioned throughout human history, I really don’t see how we’re different.crow

The percentage argument is valueless because it can be applied to any belief whatsoever. Monotheism is either true or false. We either believe in one God or we don’t. The fact that people disagree about the exact **nature **of God does not mean they are all mistaken about the **existence **of God.

How do you explain the fact that free, conscious, rational, responsible, purposeful, valuable, meaningful activity has emerged from activity which is predetermined, inanimate, irrational, irresponsible, purposeless, valueless and meaningless?

 

[wanstronian]

You are right about the atheist position being absurd … that is to say, meaningless, without value, and for us a real downer.

Only by positing God does consciousness in man make him no longer a freak or accident of nature. Only by positing God does the universe have a reason for being. Only by positing God can life be something more than a downer.

Wow, this is quite enlightening. What you seem to be saying (and I assume that some, if not all, other theists have the same opinion) is that God is nothing more than a comfort blanket, something to make you feel that your life has a higher purpose because your life is meaningless to you without it. Are theists just suffering from an inferiority complex then?

I feel genuinely sorry for you if you can’t enjoy life for its own sake. Personally speaking, my life isn’t “a downer” just because God doesn’t exist. I have a happy life without him. I get to do stuff on Sunday mornings, for a start

 

[buffalo]

Hi tonyrey,

I’m not sure I get your point in this thread.

God stories are a dime a dozen. Every monotheist is by definition 99.99999999 percent dogmatic atheist because he or she thinks all those other god stories are phony.

So unless you’re telling me you’re not dogmatically atheistic about the thousands of other gods and spirits mentioned throughout human history, I really don’t see how we’re different.

crow

There is a huge difference.

First off all the other gods point to man’s understanding of a more powerful being.

The next question is what can we find out about these gods. How do we separate and parse to find the truth?

Man by himself cannot do this. That is why attempts have failed. We do not have enough information.

Enter Revelation. The Christian God has revealed himself to man, giving us the certainty of who He is. He gave us His name, which is personal.

His interaction with the Israelites and sending His son Jesus gave us what we need.

 

[buffalo]

. I get to do stuff on Sunday mornings, for a start

So do we! In fact we commune with God in receiving the Holy Eucharist. There is nothing I would rather be doing on Sunday morning.

The experience is fantastic!

 

[crowonsnow]

The percentage argument is valueless because it can be applied to any belief whatsoever. Monotheism is either true or false. We either believe in one God or we don’t. The fact that people disagree about the exact **nature **of God does not mean they are all mistaken about the **existence **of God.

All monotheisms are more true than false. That’s my point. Pick any one god story as true and there are thousands you’ve discounted as false. So for the most part we agree.

How do you explain the fact that free, conscious, rational, responsible, purposeful, valuable, meaningful activity has emerged from activity which is predetermined, inanimate, irrational, irresponsible, purposeless, valueless and meaningless?

If I’m religiously inclined, the answer is obviously that the purpose of every electron lies buried somewhere in one of those thousands of stories about magical alien supercreatures. So where’s my dart board. I want to know which one to believe in today.

If I’m not religiously inclined, however, I know that over-pretending in cosmic superheroes is just more question begging because it doesn’t explain anything about these superheroes, and therefore fails.

The reality is that many people have value and purpose in their lives [edited] Only a religious fanatic would think it means they can’t love their children or lead a meaningful and aspiring life.

 

[tonyrey]

All monotheisms are more true than false. That’s my point. Pick any one god story as true and there are thousands you’ve discounted as false. So for the most part we agree.

You started off by asserting that every monotheist is by definition 99.99999999 percent dogmatic atheist because he or she thinks all those other god stories are phony. You seem to be following the craze for spurious mathematical proofs. An atheist believes there is **no **god. Full stop. A monotheist believes there is one God. Full stop. There are no half-measures… or percentages…

How do you explain the fact that free, conscious, rational, responsible, purposeful, valuable, meaningful activity has emerged from activity which is predetermined, inanimate, irrational, irresponsible, purposeless, valueless and meaningless?

If I’m religiously inclined, the answer is obviously that the purpose of every electron lies buried somewhere in one of those thousands of stories about magical alien supercreatures.

In other words you cannot answer the question…

If I’m not religiously inclined, however, I know that over-pretending in cosmic superheroes is just more question begging because it doesn’t explain anything about these superheroes, and therefore fails.

A Rational Being is a rather more adequate and intelligible explanation than irrational particles… After all don’t you regard human beings as superheroes… or are they supercowards?

The reality is that many people have value and purpose in their lives.

You are mistaken. **Everyone **has value and purpose in their lives. But that is not the issue at stake - which is **how **purpose and value originated…

Only a religious fanatic would think it means they can’t love their children or lead a meaningful and aspiring life.

Only an illogical person would think I implied people can’t love their children or lead a meaningful and aspiring life when I asked the following question:

“How do you explain the fact that free, conscious, rational, responsible, purposeful, valuable, meaningful activity has emerged from activity which is predetermined, inanimate, irrational, irresponsible, purposeless, valueless and meaningless?”

** Still **no explanation?

 

[Charles_Darwin]

An atheist believes there is no god.

Nope, an atheist is someone that rejects all mans god claims. I reject you claim there is a god, because you don’t have one shread of empirical evidence it exists.

 

[buffalo]

Nope, an atheist is someone that rejects all mans god claims. I reject you claim there is a god, because you don’t have one shread of empirical evidence it exists.

So how many times must we tell you God is not found empirically?

How many times must we tell you not to put all your eggs in the “science” basket?

Do you wish to find God?

 

[buffalo]

All monotheisms are more true than false. That’s my point. Pick any one god story as true and there are thousands you’ve discounted as false. So for the most part we agree.

If I’m religiously inclined, the answer is obviously that the purpose of every electron lies buried somewhere in one of those thousands of stories about magical alien supercreatures. So where’s my dart board. I want to know which one to believe in today.

If I’m not religiously inclined, however, I know that over-pretending in cosmic superheroes is just more question begging because it doesn’t explain anything about these superheroes, and therefore fails.

The reality is that many people have value and purpose in their lives [edited] Only a religious fanatic would think it means they can’t love their children or lead a meaningful and aspiring life.

Since you cannot answer the question yourself go to the experts. Oh, that is why you are here. The Catholic Church possesses the fullness of truth. Why don’t you guys go argue in the ZAF? (Zeus Answers Forum)

Call me a fanatic. You were not born in a vacuum. Atheists refusal to consider Revelation leaves them in the dark. I am not surprised.

By what standard do you judge meaningful and aspiring?

 

[tonyrey]

Nope, an atheist is someone that rejects all man’s god claims. I reject your claim there is a god, because you don’t have one shred of empirical evidence it exists.

Don’t we have empirical evidence of consciousness? Of reason? Of free will and self-control? Of conscience? Of purpose? Of love? How do you explain all these facts? By fortuitous combinations of atomic particles? What is your empirical evidence for the truth of atheism?

 

[Charles_Darwin]

Don’t we have empirical evidence of consciousness? Of reason? Of free will and self-control? Of conscience? Of purpose? Of love? How do you explain all these facts? By fortuitous combinations of atomic particles? What is your empirical evidence for the truth of atheism?

What do they have to do with atheism? And what do you mean we don’t have empirical evidence of consciousness?

Also atheism is not a claim, its a reaction to a claim. You have made the claim, you have not met your burden of proof, therefore i reject your claim.

 

[Charles_Darwin]

So how many times must we tell you God is not found empirically?

How many times must we tell you not to put all your eggs in the “science” basket?

Do you wish to find God?

How many times have i told you that when it comes to knowledge and understanding science has no equal. How many times have you refused to put the results on the table.

I have no reason to believe a god exists, so why would i wish to find that that does not exist?

 

[buffalo]

How many times have i told you that when it comes to knowledge and understanding science has no equal. How many times have you refused to put the results on the table.

I have no reason to believe a god exists, so why would i wish to find that that does not exist?

So stay content with your a priori view.

Why waste my time? If you ever want to know I can help you. You are not ready right now, so get lost.

 

[Charles_Darwin]

So stay content with your a priori view.

Why waste my time? If you ever want to know I can help you. You are not ready right now, so get lost.

Ouchy lol. The proof is in the pudding so to speak. If you ever want to learn the explanations surrounding our cosmos feel free to PM me. The truth may hurt some, but i find the real answer to be infinitely greater. While i get annoyed by those whom reject science due to ignorace, i never feel anything personal against you. Truth be told i pity you. I’m always open to discourse though, no matter how basic it must sometimes be. So though you are lost, i will never tell you to get lost.

Peace

 

[buffalo]

Ouchy lol. The proof is in the pudding so to speak. If you ever want to learn the explanations surrounding our cosmos feel free to PM me. The truth may hurt some, but i find the real answer to be infinitely greater. While i get annoyed by those whom reject science due to ignorace, i never feel anything personal against you. Truth be told i pity you. I’m always open to discourse though, not matter how basic it must sometimes be. So though you are lost, i will would never tell you to get lost.

Peace

Hello - I have been researching and studying far longer than you. And at one time I believed science was “it”. I got smarter. You call us who reject certain conclusions ignorant. You call those of us who expanded our knowledge well beyond limited science ignorant.

You say you are open to discourse, but you are not. It is an act. You have one mission here and we know it.

I usually do not react as I did and risk the mods cautioning me about charity. But your arrogance and attitude frustrate me so. You are not ready to learn more. Humility is key.

 

[Charles_Darwin]

Hello - I have been researching and studying far longer than you. And at one time I believed science was “it”. I got smarter. You call us who reject certain conclusions ignorant. You call those of us who expanded our knowledge well beyond limited science ignorant.

You say you are open to discourse, but you are not. It is an act. You have one mission here and we know it.

I usually do not react as I did and risk the mods cautioning me about charity. But your arrogance and attitude frustrate me so. You are not ready to learn more. Humility is key.

Well i have seen you reject evolution therefore i take your claim about learning science with a pinch of salt. I see no greater arrogance than those who believe they know more than all the greatest minds on earth combined.

I am open to discourse, i’m just not open to preaching. Nothing is more important to me than the advancement of knowledge. The thing about this is, it is imperative that our understandings are correct. This is why i require such high standards of evidence. When it comes to the advancement of knowledge nothing comes close to science. When it comes to knowledge and understanding, evidence is everything.

I can’t take the easy way out, my mind wont allow it. Your right humility is key, how humble is an uneducated man that thinks he knows more than all the greatest minds at all the greatest universities combined??

 

[buffalo]

Well i have seen you reject evolution therefore i take your claim about learning science with a pinch of salt. I see no greater arrogance than those who believe they know more than all the greatest minds on earth combined.

I am open to discourse, i’m just not open to preaching. Nothing is more important to me than the advancement of knowledge. The thing about this is, it is imperative that our understandings are correct. This is why i require such high standards of evidence. When it comes to the advancement of knowledge nothing comes close to science. When it comes to knowledge and understanding, evidence is everything.

I can’t take the easy way out, my mind wont allow it. Your right humility is key, how humble is an uneducated man that thinks he knows more than all the greatest minds at all the greatest universities combined??

For the record I have not rejected adaptation (micro-evolution). I have rejected materialistic evolution as any Catholic would. I argue for the accuracy and constant teaching and belief of the Catholic Church. I argue that the universe is intelligible and can be understood. I argue that the universe and man has purpose. I argue the origins of man. I argue that human reasoning is fallible and I am holding science to the same rules of evidence you want.

 

[liquidpele]

For the record I have not rejected adaptation (micro-evolution). I have rejected materialistic evolution as any Catholic would. I argue for the accuracy and constant teaching and belief of the Catholic Church. I argue that the universe is intelligible and can be understood. I argue that the universe and man has purpose. I argue the origins of man. I argue that human reasoning is fallible and I am holding science to the same rules of evidence you want.

So would it be fair to say you hold your Catholic teachings above all else?

My second question is then, do you not see that as a contradiction to searching for truth? Why hold yourself back with preconceived notions?

 

[liquidpele]

“appears” is the operative word… and appearances are often deceptive. You refer to evidence but you still have not explained what that evidence is, nor how free will can override the laws of nature. The fact that free will is an everyday experience does not make it any the less extraordinary and astonishing. How can biological machines - which is all we are according to the atheist - possibly become capable of controlling themselves and responsible for their activity? In some respects computers are far more powerful than human beings but we don’t regard them as innocent or guilty.The reason is that they are programmed by us but we programme ourselves.

Why should our species be more valuable than individuals like you and me? Would you sacrifice your life for the sake of your species? Why should our species be more valuable than other species?

Why do you think society decides our rights? Do you think society is infallible? Do you make all your decisions on the basis of what society decides? Don’t you believe you have a right to make up your own mind about what is right and wrong regardless of what society decides?

You are misrepresenting my view and the views of other theists. Of course morality exists without God but, as you have explained, without God it is entirely man-made. In your opinion, good and evil do not exist independently and there is no such thing as an objective right to life. According to you, if everyone decided we didn’t have a right to life we wouldn’t have a right to life. In other words, life does not have any intrinsic value at all. And that is why criminals are no worse than anyone else. They are simply taking your view to its logical conclusion. There is no absolute reason why we shouldn’t kill somebody if there is no reason why we or they exist. What difference does one murder make in the vastness of the eternity if there is no such thing as cosmic justice or an afterlife in which we all receive exactly what we deserve? None whatsoever if morality is a human convention…

I’m at the beach and hammered drunk, so excuse any misspellings.

I touched on my evidence, noting that it was my own experience. Your miles may vary. Free will overrides the laws of nature because there are different laws at work… like a rocket “overridding” the law of gravity. I get the feeling you don’t understand very much about how the human body works… it’s quite amazing. Amazing things are not necessarily designed.

Why should society be more important than the individual? Good question! If you research and realize the answer, you’ll understand why we evolved the way we did.

Society is of course not infallible. We make our decisions as best we can, but they are often stupid. War, specifically nuclear war, comes to mind.

It’s funny that you agree with my last bit, and then completely miss the point and argue against it as if society would collapse in such a case. Clearly you didn’t see my point, but I would imagine you wouldn’t accept it… ah well.