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tonyrey
Guest
Do you want to be separated forever from those you love?
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Charlemagne_III
Guest
Does the universe have to have no meaning?
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ThinkingSapien
Guest
What are the implications/results/consequences of a universe “with a meaning” compared to a universe without one?Does the universe have to have no meaning?
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HerCrazierHalf
Guest
The universe can have or not have almost anything seeing as how we are nearly powerless to do anything about it.Does the universe have to have no meaning?
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Charlemagne_III
Guest
It’s true we have no say in the matter. But God does.
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tonyrey
Guest
On second thoughts, if life had no meaning or purpose we would never understand anything because there would be nothing to understand! The fact that the universe is intelligible presupposes the existence of intelligence.
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Charlemagne_III
Guest
For us or for the universe?
For us the implications/results/consequences would be that God exists and has a plan and we are part of the plan.
The universe without a meaning offers no plan and we are unplanned and all our plans are absurdly meaningless because they end in absolute nothingness.
The desire for immortality is natural.
Those who do not desire immortality, who wish themselves to end forever at some point, have to imagine a Nogod to assure themselves that they are not going to get out of this life alive.
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ThinkingSapien
Guest
So when you ask someone if the universe has a meaning you are asking a question of intentions? In other words is this question synonymous: “Is this existence of the universe motivated by some function/goal/desire?”
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tonyrey
Guest
I believe an eternal-death wish is irrational because why would we detest life so much we would want to disappear without ever being able to share our experiences with our loved ones, increase our appreciation of the beauty of Creation and develop our capacity for love so that we are overcome with joy and gratitude for everything we have received? Such an attitude is the epitome of negativity - and the logical outcome of fully-fledged atheism…For us or for the universe?
For us the implications/results/consequences would be that God exists and has a plan and we are part of the plan.
The universe without a meaning offers no plan and we are unplanned and all our plans are absurdly meaningless because they end in absolute nothingness.
The desire for immortality is natural.
Those who do not desire immortality, who wish themselves to end forever at some point, have to imagine a Nogod to assure themselves that they are not going to get out of this life alive.
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Charlemagne_III
Guest
Something along that line.
Is there a Creator who went to the bother of Creating the universe and has a plan for his creation; or is the universe all just eternal uncreated stuff with no ultimate reason for its being.
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Charlemagne_III
Guest
Yes, the eternal death wish of atheism does seem irrational (even suicidal) and flies in the face of our deepest longing. If there is a God, God has given us this longing for eternal life because there is something there to long for.
The atheist doesn’t just want there to be eternal death; he wants there to be no God to make eternal life possible.
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Bradski
Guest
One of your finest moments, Charles.
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HerCrazierHalf
Guest
It is no more irrational than everlasting life. That can be inferred by some claims that the after life in heaven will be greater and happier beyond our current understanding. Doesn’t that imply that a major modification is required for eternal life to be enjoyable? And if so doesn’t that border on no longer being “you”?
There are denominations that believe that those who do not enter heaven will be obliterated (more or less). A “no God” scenario isn’t required.
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Pallas_Athene
Guest
Swift has described “immortality” in his wonderful book of “Gulliver’s Travels”. In Luggnagg there are the unfortunate struldbrugs, who look like normal people, but are actually immortal. These poor people are “cursed” with eternal life, but they do not have eternal health and youth. They keep on aging, getting more and more deformed and sick, their mind deteriorates… a truly horrifying existence.
The truth is that people don’t want “eternal” life, they simply do not want to age and die. Even if someone would be in perfect health, but deprived of CHANGE (is there a change in heaven?) a frozen, unchanging existence is undesirable whether it is “pleasurable” or “painful”. Just imagine a playful “tickling”, which is not stopped, no matter how much you would wish to have it stopped. It would turn into a horrible torture.
The truth is that people don’t want “eternal” life, they simply do not want to age and die. Even if someone would be in perfect health, but deprived of CHANGE (is there a change in heaven?) a frozen, unchanging existence is undesirable whether it is “pleasurable” or “painful”. Just imagine a playful “tickling”, which is not stopped, no matter how much you would wish to have it stopped. It would turn into a horrible torture.
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Charlemagne_III
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ThinkingSapien
Guest
I had been thinking about Tithonus from Greek mythology. He suffered the same fate;having been given the “gift” of eternal life, but not eternal youth. The question of quality of life v quantity of life isn’t limited to fictional stories and mythologies though. There have been those that from suffering wish to wake no more instead of suffering through another day. The conditions for a DNR are another similarly motivated discussion.
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Bradski
Guest
I think you’re quite right, Charles. There aren’t many religions that don’t have a happy-ever-after.
But this eternal life business is puzzling to say the least. I assume that if you are sick in this world, you are healthy in the next. What if you are born with no arms? Do you get both in heaven?
There can’t be any age differences otherwise heaven will be packed with old people and babies. So everyone must appear to be the same age. What age? If someone dies when they are two years old, are they older in heaven?
You’d be able to, presumably, meet your parents. And they could meet theirs. But at some point, someone is going to ask: Where are mine? Because go back far enough and there must have been proto humans with no soul.
It seems a very strange place…
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Aloysium
Guest
The strangeness may be a projection of a strange concept of reality:
No, we were never mere protoplasm.
Age and infirmity have to do with existence in this world.
I’m surprised you didn’t mention genitalia. Maybe you were being polite.
We will be in heaven because we will have reconciled our relationship with God.
In terms of the resurrection of the body, it is very interesting indeed.
It will be not quite like this one - new and improved, the way it was supposed to be.
Amazing is a more appropriate word than strange.
I’ve got enough to deal with here, so I haven’t given it much thought.
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CHRISTINE77
Guest
Wow you have a very weird vision of heaven.
The teaching is that only humans with souls can go to heaven.
Otherwise it is pure speculation what heaven will be like. Probably beyond anyone’s wildest imagination. One thing for sure, we won’t have earthly bodies, they will be spiritual. There won’t be any suffering in heaven. Everything will be perfect.
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Charlemagne_III
Guest
If this is your best notion of heaven, I’d be very interested in your worst notion of hell.
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