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Gamera
Guest
No, we don’t “realize” anything of the kind. Jesus plainly was telling us about the Eucharist.
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someotherguy
Guest
OK. Whatever.
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someotherguy
Guest
Even after it’s consecrated, when you’re telling me that it turns into Jesus, it still looks like bread and wine.
J
jmcrae
Guest
When you do street evangelism, what is it that you ask people to do, that lets you know whether you’ve been successful or not in converting them to your belief system?
If a conversion occurs, does the conversion occur in 33 AD at Calvary, or does it occur in the present moment, and in the place where you are?
If it occurs in the present moment, and in the place where you are, then how does Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross “save” that person from his or her sins?
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someotherguy
Guest
I’m just going by what the Bible says. Jesus was talking about the atonement.
Then what’s the point of putting Him back on the cross?
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Johndigger
Guest
This is ludicrous. So, when Jesus takes bread in his sacred hands and says:
“Take and eat; this is my body.”
It has absolutely nothing to do with the “bread of life” that Jesus says He is, absolutely nothing to do with the bread that Jesus says we must eat to “live forever” and absolutely nothing to do with the bread that Jesus will give for the “life of the world.”
Cooooome offfff it. The passages are so linked, they’re basically married and having kittens.
EXACTLY!
Now, we’re getting somewhere, my friend.
JD
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someotherguy
Guest
I ask them to repent and put their faith in Christ and His atonement, alone, for the forgiveness of their sins.
Christ’s death occurred in 33 ad. The conversion appears presently.
You don’t know how Christ’s sacrifice saves us? Are you a Christian?
J
jmcrae
Guest
Yes.
After the appearance of the bread and wine is gone, Jesus’ spirit remains with the person, but He is no longer physically present with them.
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Gamera
Guest
Yes, correct. Then a person consumes the host. Digestion destroys the accidents (outward appearances) of bread and wine. When the accidents (outward appearances) of bread and wine are gone, Christ’s body and blood is gone.
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someotherguy
Guest
No, I’m not going to come off it. I’m going to stand on God’s word.
Maybe you’ll try to burn me at the stake like you burned so many other Godly men.
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someotherguy
Guest
I see. So then, they didn’t have Jesus’ spirit before they ate the cracker?Yes.
After the appearance of the bread and wine is gone, Jesus’ spirit remains with the person, but He is no longer physically present with them.
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Gamera
Guest
Chapter and verse? Where does Jesus say, “When I said, ‘It is finished’ I was referring to the atonement?”
None, because he isn’t “put back on the cross.” His one sacrifice on the cross remains perpetual.
J
jmcrae
Guest
Okay. And what happens then? Does Jesus’ death on the Cross begin to atone for that person’s sins, at that moment? (But not before that, right?)
Are the two events connected in any way? If so, what (in your belief system) causes them to become connected?
Of course I know. The grace from HIs Sacrifice on the Cross comes down to us through the Sacraments of the Church, especially Baptism, Confession, Confirmation, and Holy Communion.
I’m asking you what your religion teaches. I was assuming that you were an Evangelical, but since you don’t know what “accepting Jesus into your heart” means, it’s obvious that you are not an Evangelical, but something else.
I’m just trying to get a handle on what it is that you believe.
G
Gamera
Guest
But isn’t Jesus sacrifice “finished?” Then how can they put their faith in it today??? Isn’t that like crucifying him all over again?
Sorry for the sarcasm, but that’s how your arguments sound to us.
X
xmydreamsfadex
Guest
let’s learn something from the Jews here.
the Jewish memorial does a lot more than recall the past; it actually makes the past present mystically through liturgical worship, so that future generations could perticipate in the foudational events in Israels history. so, when the Jews celebrate the Passover each year, they beleived that it is not only brought to their minds but is actually made present to them. some ancient Jews said that when they celebrate the Passover, it was as if they were walking out of Egypt with their ancestors in the Exodus. so, here comes jesus saying “Do this is memory of me.” He commanded the apostles to celebrate this new passover meal, His Body and Blood, as a memorial. in other words, Jesus told the apostoles to make this an event for future generations of Christians. that is why catholics can call the Mass a sacrifice. not a new one, but a making present of the one, perfect sacrifice of Jesus as a biblical memorial. when the priest recites the words of consecration, the events of the Last Supper and Calvary are made present to us in the liturgy. His Body and Blood are re-presented in a unique way at Mass. Catechism 1366. we are taught that through the Mass we have the opportunity to unite ourselves to that perfect sacrifice made two thousand years ago. read catechism 1368.
the Jewish memorial does a lot more than recall the past; it actually makes the past present mystically through liturgical worship, so that future generations could perticipate in the foudational events in Israels history. so, when the Jews celebrate the Passover each year, they beleived that it is not only brought to their minds but is actually made present to them. some ancient Jews said that when they celebrate the Passover, it was as if they were walking out of Egypt with their ancestors in the Exodus. so, here comes jesus saying “Do this is memory of me.” He commanded the apostles to celebrate this new passover meal, His Body and Blood, as a memorial. in other words, Jesus told the apostoles to make this an event for future generations of Christians. that is why catholics can call the Mass a sacrifice. not a new one, but a making present of the one, perfect sacrifice of Jesus as a biblical memorial. when the priest recites the words of consecration, the events of the Last Supper and Calvary are made present to us in the liturgy. His Body and Blood are re-presented in a unique way at Mass. Catechism 1366. we are taught that through the Mass we have the opportunity to unite ourselves to that perfect sacrifice made two thousand years ago. read catechism 1368.
J
Johndigger
Guest
I think your sincerity is admirable and your conviction and desire for the truth equally so.
However, you are wrong.
Instead, perhaps of simply saying that you are standing on God’s word (Which, indeed is what proponent of heresy claims to do), in terms of furthering the conversation I don’t suppose you could quote actual scripture instead of just empty rhetoric.
As you know, the Protestants also burnt many Catholics simply for worshipping the Lord.
There are errors and faults on either side of the lines.
No doubt we could chuck mud at each other all day on these issues.
But regardless your ancestors in faith or my ancestors in faith being burnt or killing - this has no bearing on the truth of the matter at hand. Let us stick to that.
God bless. Prayers for you and I ask prayers for me, also.
JD
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someotherguy
Guest
Not at all. Just as the Jews of the Old Covenant looked forward to Christ’s atonement, we now look back on it.
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Gamera
Guest
Since no “cracker” is involved, I’ll assume that was intended to be a light-hearted (albeit crass and ill-advised) joke meant to break the ice, rather than an offensive slur.
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someotherguy
Guest
I would rather be wrong along with God’s word, than to be correct and abandon it.
I’ve quoted scripture constantly. You don’t like it so you ignore it.
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someotherguy
Guest
Looks like a cracker.
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