The altar

[DustinsDad]

I go to Mass 6 days a week-How about you?

On average, probably 2 times a week. I begin work at 5AM and don’t get home usually until 5PM. You are blessed to be able to attend the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass daily. I hope to be able to do the same some day. Some day soon hopefully. I hope it doesn’t lead to spiritual pride and arrogance to the effect that I begin to believe I don’t need the traditions of the Church that developed over the centuries.

Howver I go there to be in the presence of Christ and follow his admonition to eat his body and drink his blood.

That can be accomplished at “Communion Services” often offered at parishes that share priests…but there is something more going on at Mass that Christ is offering Himself as food for the faithful. Seems you are getting very close to view of the mass condemend by the Council of Trent.
Council of Trent, Session 22
CANON I.–If any one saith, that in the mass a true and proper sacriflce is not offered to God; or, that to be offered is nothing else but that Christ is given us to eat; let him be anathema.

CANON III.–If any one saith, that the sacrifice of the mass is only a sacrifice of praise and of thanksgiving; or, that it** is a bare commemoration of the sacrifice consummated on the cross**, but not a propitiatory sacrifice; or, that it profits him only who receives; and that it ought not to be offered for the living and the dead for sins, pains, satisfactions, and other necessities; let him be anathema.

I am not in the least concerend about how fancy the altar is or whether the Mass is in Latin or not or which way the Priest faces. Given your comments on the state of the Mass in the last 40 years I suspect you are concerned with all of these.

God help me if I wasn’t concerned with His mystical body the Church. I am concerned about the loss of the “sense of sacred” and with the abandonment of the traditions of the Church and the traditions of the liturgy so rampant these days…things that have grown and developed as incentives to piety and ways to raise the hearts and minds of the faithful to the contemplation of Divine things.

And that concern is based on my recognition that I need such things. As the Church teaches
“And whereas such is the nature of man, that, without external helps, he cannot easily be raised to the meditation of divine things.” (Trent, Session 22, Chapter V).
Being a weak and sinful human being that I am, I’ll take anything and everything the Holy Spirit has given the Church as a means to better worship the Lord and as a means to deepen my own spiritual life and strengthen my own relationship with the Redeemer.

Concerning Canon VII of Trent, Sesison 22:
CANON VII.–If any one saith, that the ceremonies, vestments, and outward signs, which the Catholic Church makes use of in the celebration of masses, are incentives to impiety, rather than offices of piety; let him be anathema.
You seem to be saying that such are neither incentives to piety nor incentives to impiety…guess they are just needless distractions that really good catholics who are able to go to daily mass really don’t need. I’m not that good. I need 'em.

Peace in Christ,
DustinsDad

 

[Uxor]

Since you asked, here’s a link to a site with an altar I would hate to see become the norm:

christthekingabbey.org/AbbeyChurchAndCeremoniesGallery/Church0136.jpg

I see the Tabernacle front and center…so when I would walk in this Church I would immediately know where Christ is. I see angels in adoration, Mary the Mother of God, candles and flowers. And the three steps that represent the Blessed Holy Trinity. It is beautiful. And you hate that?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I see the Tabernacle front and center…so when I would walk in this Church I would immediately know where Christ is. I see angels in adoration, Mary the Mother of God, candles and flowers. And the three steps that represent the Blessed Holy Trinity. It is beautiful. And you hate that?

Try and follow the argument here, Uxor, and make an effort NOT to be inflammatory (“hate” is a strong word). I’m saying I think that’s overdone and tacky. I didn’t say it was lacking in reverence. I’m also saying that a free-standing altar is capable of of reverence, and equally capable of being either tacky and overdone or beautiful. We already agree about the tabernacle.

And the reason I posted the pic of my parish altar was that I was asking an honest question. Can’t a TLM be offered from that altar, if the tabernacle was under the crucifix?

 

[DustinsDad]

There may be more than a little wrong with this. Estesbob may be hedging up antiquarianism, but are you saying that simpler altars or free-standing altars or whatever are a departure from the guidance of the Holy Spirit?

What I’m saying is the idea that the “altar doesn’t matter” and the idea that “the more the externals of the mass are identical to the externals of the Last Supper, the more pure it is” is a departure from the guidence of the Holy Spirit because it ignores His guideance over the centuries.

I’d also say that the physical nature of the altar and how we reverence it, etc. - is based on our understanding of what happens on it, our understanding of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. These externals are manifestations of the internal heart and mind of the Church - deepened and guided by the Holy Spirit througout the centuries. Such things are tools, “gifts” if you will, that help to guide us to a deeper conversion of the internals - they help to touch and affect our interior disposition of the heart.

So no, I’m not saying all “simple” altars and all free-standing altars are departures from the guidance of the Holy Spirit…that would depend more on the motivations and intentions behind such “renovations”. From my small and lowly place within Christ’s Mystical Body the Church, I can only observe that alltooften, such motivations seem to be out of step with His guidance.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[estesbob]

You seem to be saying that such are neither incentives to piety nor incentives to impiety…guess they are just needless distractions that really good catholics who are able to go to daily mass really don’t need. I’m not that good. I need 'em.

Peace in Christ,
DustinsDad

You seem to think that if the Mass is just not the way you prefer it there is something worng with it, You will find multiple threads ion CAF of people here that agree with you, Sitting in the pews and parsing over every word the Priest says or , God Forbid, omits. More concerned with how the Savnctuary looks than who is about to occupy it.

 

[Uxor]

Try and follow the argument here, Uxor, and make an effort NOT to be inflammatory (“hate” is a strong word). I’m saying I think that’s overdone and tacky. I didn’t say it was lacking in reverence. I’m also saying that a free-standing altar is capable of of reverence, and equally capable of being either tacky and overdone or beautiful. We already agree about the tabernacle.

And the reason I posted the pic of my parish altar was that I was asking an honest question. Can’t a TLM be offered from that altar, if the tabernacle was under the crucifix?

I didn’t know this was an argument. I just used your word “hate”…I am just commenting on what you said, I am not being inflammatory at all.

 

[Uxor]

You seem to think that if the Mass is just not the way you prefer it there is something worng with it, You will find multiple threads ion CAF of people here that agree with you, Sitting in the pews and parsing over every word the Priest says or , God Forbid, omits. More concerned with how the Savnctuary looks than who is about to occupy it.

My Catholic teaching Christ is always present…not about to occupy it. Christ is King of Kings…it should be befitting for a King, especially our Lord King and Savior Jesus Christ. It is God’s House, God’s altar, not ours and it should represent His House, not a convention center with a table that you could put pamplets on.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

What I’m saying is the idea that the “altar doesn’t matter” and the idea that “the more the externals of the mass are identical to the externals of the Last Supper, the more pure it is” is a departure from the guidence of the Holy Spirit because it ignores His guideance over the centuries. **I can agree with that, to an extent. Church architecture, and the altars that architecture contain, have been developments of men, though. There have been trends in that architecture and I would say that those trends are morally neutral, to a large degree, in that they can legitimately differ. I don’t think it would be correct to say, however, that an altar is inherently less reverent or less able to lift man’s heart to God because it is simpler (THAT was the source of my remark about bows, “more” not necessarily being “better”) or free standing, any more than it would be correct to say that an altar should be judged by its resemblance to the table used at the Last Supper (which would probably be quite low and have couches around it, in which case we’re still far off the mark). **

I’d also say that the physical nature of the altar and how we reverence it, etc. - is based on our understanding of what happens on it, our understanding of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. These externals are manifestations of the internal heart and mind of the Church - deepened and guided by the Holy Spirit througout the centuries. Such things are tools, “gifts” if you will, that help to guide us to a deeper conversion of the internals - they help to touch and affect our interior disposition of the heart. **I totally agree. I don’t care for the altar to be made of wood for that very reason. I guess that’s one reason I like our massive altar. It’s free-standing, but it’s huge and made of stone (marble). In my mind, when the priest is walking around it with the thruible, it’s a continuation of the Temple Altar, where the sacrifices were offered, only now it’s the One, the Singular Lamb of God that’s being offered. **

So no, I’m not saying all “simple” altars and all free-standing altars are departures from the guidance of the Holy Spirit…that would depend more on the motivations and intentions behind such “renovations”. From my small and lowly place within Christ’s Mystical Body the Church, I can only observe that alltooften, such motivations seem to be out of step with His guidance.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

Then I am able to agree with that. You’re quite right.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I didn’t know this was an argument. I just used your word “hate”…I am just commenting on what you said, I am not being inflammatory at all.

I said I would hate to see that altar become a standard. I didn’t say I hated tablernacles in the center, or representations of the Blessed Mother, or three steps symbolizing the Holy Trinity or angels.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

You seem to think that if the Mass is just not the way you prefer it there is something worng with it, You will find multiple threads ion CAF of people here that agree with you, Sitting in the pews and parsing over every word the Priest says or , God Forbid, omits. More concerned with how the Savnctuary looks than who is about to occupy it.

Estesbob, I see where you’re coming from, truly, but it’s BECAUSE of Who’s coming to the Sanctuary that Dustin’s Dad is concerned with how it looks.

 

[Genesis315]

While beautiful churches are nice, we need to always keep it in its proper perspective (which I think most in this thread do). As St. Bernard said:

I shall speak plainly: Isn’t greed, a form of idolatry, responsible for all this? Aren’t we seeking contributions rather than spiritual profit? “How?” you ask. “In a strange and wonderful way,” I answer. Money is scattered about in such a way that it will multiply. It is spent so that it will increase. Pouring it out produces more of it. Faced with expensive but marvelous vanities, people are inspired to contribute rather than to pray. Thus riches attract riches and money produces more money. I don’t know why, but the wealthier a place, the readier people are to contribute to it. Just feast their eyes on gold-covered relics and their purses will open. Just show them a beautiful picture of some saint. The brighter the colors, the saintlier he’ll appear to them. Men rush to kiss and are invited to contribute. There is more admiration for beauty than veneration for sanctity. Thus churches are decorated, not simply with jeweled crowns, but with jeweled wheels illuminated as much by their precious stones as by their lamps. We see candelabra like big bronze trees, marvelously wrought, their gems glowing no less than their flames. What do you think is the purpose of such things? To gain the contrition of penitents or the admiration of spectators?

On vanity of vanities, yet no more vain than insane! The church is resplendent in her walls and wanting in her poor. She dresses her stones in gold and lets her sons go naked. The eyes of the rich are fed at the expense of the indigent. The curious find something to amuse them and the needy find nothing to sustain them.

 

[Walking_Home]

vatican.va/edocs/ENG0821/__P7.HTM

Ecclesia de Eucharistia
Ioannes Paulus PP. II
2003 04 17

1. Reading the account of the institution of the Eucharist in the Synoptic Gospels, we are struck by the simplicity and the “solemnity” with which Jesus, on the evening of the Last Supper, instituted this great sacrament. There is an episode which in some way serves as its prelude: the anointing at Bethany. A woman, whom John identifies as Mary the sister of Lazarus, pours a flask of costly ointment over Jesus’ head, which provokes from the disciples – and from Judas in particular (cf. Mt 26:8; Mk 14:4; Jn 12:4) – an indignant response, as if this act, in light of the needs of the poor, represented an intolerable “waste”. But Jesus’ own reaction is completely different. While in no way detracting from the duty of charity towards the needy, for whom the disciples must always show special care – “the poor you will always have with you” (Mt 26, 11; Mk 14:7; cf. Jn 12:8) – he looks towards his imminent death and burial, and sees this act of anointing as an anticipation of the honour which his body will continue to merit even after his death, indissolubly bound as it is to the mystery of his person.

The account continues, in the Synoptic Gospels, with Jesus’ charge to the disciples to prepare carefully the “large upper room” needed for the Passover meal (cf. Mk 14:15; Lk 22:12) and with the narration of the institution of the Eucharist…

1. Like the woman who anointed Jesus in Bethany, the Church has feared no “extravagance”, devoting the best of her resources to expressing her wonder and adoration before the unsurpassable gift of the Eucharist. No less than the first disciples charged with preparing the “large upper room”, she has felt the need, down the centuries and in her encounters with different cultures, to celebrate the Eucharist in a setting worthy of so great a mystery. In the wake of Jesus’ own words and actions, and building upon the ritual heritage of Judaism, the Christian liturgy was born. Could there ever be an adequate means of expressing the acceptance of that self-gift which the divine Bridegroom continually makes to his Bride, the Church, by bringing the Sacrifice offered once and for all on the Cross to successive generations of believers and thus becoming nourishment for all the faithful?..
2. With this heightened sense of mystery, we understand how the faith of the Church in the mystery of the Eucharist has found historical expression not only in the demand for an interior disposition of devotion, but also in outward forms meant to evoke and emphasize the grandeur of the event being celebrated. This led progressively to the development of a particular form of regulating the Eucharistic liturgy, with due respect for the various legitimately constituted ecclesial traditions. On this foundation a rich artistic heritage also developed. Architecture, sculpture, painting and music, moved by the Christian mystery, have found in the Eucharist, both directly and indirectly, a source of great inspiration.

 

[Uxor]

I said I would hate to see that altar become a standard. I didn’t say I hated tablernacles in the center, or representations of the Blessed Mother, or three steps symbolizing the Holy Trinity or angels.

Well that is what is on the Altar and around it that you would hate to become the norm.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Well that is what is on the Altar and around it that you would hate to become the norm.

I think it looks generally “junked up.”

 

[Walking_Home]

Since you asked, here’s a link to a site with an altar I would hate to see become the norm:

christthekingabbey.org/AbbeyChurchAndCeremoniesGallery/Church0136.jpg

---

This what our late Pope had to say about our Altars. In the context in which it is written—he is not referring to the sanitized version being passed now as “noble simplicity”.

vatican.va/edocs/ENG0821/__P7.HTM

1. With this heightened sense of mystery, we understand how the faith of the Church in the mystery of the Eucharist has found historical expression not only in the demand for an interior disposition of devotion, but also in outward forms meant to evoke and emphasize the grandeur of the event being celebrated. This led progressively to the development of a particular form of regulating the Eucharistic liturgy, with due respect for the various legitimately constituted ecclesial traditions. On this foundation a rich artistic heritage also developed. Architecture, sculpture, painting and music, moved by the Christian mystery, have found in the Eucharist, both directly and indirectly, a source of great inspiration.

Such was the case, for example, with architecture, which witnessed the transition, once the historical situation made it possible, from the first places of Eucharistic celebration in the domus or “homes” of Christian families to the solemn basilicas of the early centuries, to the imposing cathedrals of the Middle Ages, and to the churches, large and small, which gradually sprang up throughout the lands touched by Christianity. The designs of altars and tabernacles within Church interiors were often not simply motivated by artistic inspiration but also by a clear understanding of the mystery. The same could be said for sacred music, if we but think of the inspired Gregorian melodies and the many, often great, composers who sought to do justice to the liturgical texts of the Mass. Similarly, can we overlook the enormous quantity of artistic production, ranging from fine craftsmanship to authentic works of art, in the area of Church furnishings and vestments used for the celebration of the Eucharist?

 

[paramedicgirl]

Since you asked, here’s a link to a site with an altar I would hate to see become the norm:

christthekingabbey.org/AbbeyChurchAndCeremoniesGallery/Church0136.jpg

Why would you hate to see that become the norm? Is it overdone in your opinion?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

---

This what our late Pope had to say about our Altars. In the context in which it is written—he is not referring to the sanitized version being passed now as “noble simplicity”.

vatican.va/edocs/ENG0821/__P7.HTM

1. With this heightened sense of mystery, we understand how the faith of the Church in the mystery of the Eucharist has found historical expression not only in the demand for an interior disposition of devotion, but also in outward forms meant to evoke and emphasize the grandeur of the event being celebrated. This led progressively to the development of a particular form of regulating the Eucharistic liturgy, with due respect for the various legitimately constituted ecclesial traditions. On this foundation a rich artistic heritage also developed. Architecture, sculpture, painting and music, moved by the Christian mystery, have found in the Eucharist, both directly and indirectly, a source of great inspiration.

Such was the case, for example, with architecture, which witnessed the transition, once the historical situation made it possible, from the first places of Eucharistic celebration in the domus or “homes” of Christian families to the solemn basilicas of the early centuries, to the imposing cathedrals of the Middle Ages, and to the churches, large and small, which gradually sprang up throughout the lands touched by Christianity. The designs of altars and tabernacles within Church interiors were often not simply motivated by artistic inspiration but also by a clear understanding of the mystery. The same could be said for sacred music, if we but think of the inspired Gregorian melodies and the many, often great, composers who sought to do justice to the liturgical texts of the Mass. Similarly, can we overlook the enormous quantity of artistic production, ranging from fine craftsmanship to authentic works of art, in the area of Church furnishings and vestments used for the celebration of the Eucharist?

I don’t disagree with any of this.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Why would you hate to see that become the norm? Is it overdone in your opinion?

Yes, it crossed over from grand to gaudy. It goes to my “bows” comment. I’m sure we’ve all had our breath taken away by a beautiful woman, elegantly dressed. Is she going to look better because she puts on more stuff, maybe even more expensive stuff? It’s kind of like Queen Mary (being Canadian, PMG, maybe you’ll appreciate this), the current queen’s gran. She loved diamonds and she draped herself in them. There were times when she virtually unloaded her entire jewlry box(es), strands of them around her neck, multiple bracelets up her entire lower arm, multiple brooches that clashed, worn all at once, WITH the cyphers of the various orders she belonged to, ie, Order of the Garter, Order of the Thistle, etc. It was a wonder she could walk. I can’t find a picture of her like THAT, but try and construct that in your mind, and then look at THIS picture:

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/52/Mary_of_Teck.jpg/262px-Mary_of_Teck.jpg

Here, she’s got just enough to look like what she is: a grand, beautiful woman, every inch a queen. One cypher, a tiara, 2-3 necklaces, classy ear bobs. Whoever saw her that day and stopped her from emptying the vault did her a favor. Less CAN be more.

 

[Walking_Home]

I don’t disagree with any of this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JKirkLVNV
I wasn’t being snide. I thought the altar was greatly improved. My point was that there are people who wouldn’t think that. To say that this altar is more acceptable to God or to say that that altar is more pleasing to God is rendering a judgment we aren’t capable of objectively making. And cramming a church with more statues and gee-gaws isn’t an objective way of rendering glory to God and simplicity doesn’t mean a lack of reverence​

You don’t disagree–then what is your statement about cramming a church with more statues. From what I have seen—our old Altars were very ornate and statues were a big part of the adornment. Everything about our old Altars expressed and emphasized one thing—the greatest action known to mankind. This is what our late Pope was refering to.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

You don’t disagree–then what is your statement about cramming a church with more statues. From what I have seen—our old Altars were very ornate and statues were a big part of the adornment. Everything about our old Altars expressed and emphasized one thing—the greatest action known to mankind. This is what our late Pope was refering to.

I’ve seen old churches were every available space was crammed with something, seemingly without regard to how one object might fit or blend with the objects around it or the unity of the whole. That’s the kind of thing I think is unfortunate. The late pope also doesn’t seem to be endorsing a single style, ie, roccoco over byzantine or romanesque or gothic, nor a the idea of a altar against the wall as opposed to a free-standing altar. And a “newer” altar can express and emphasize that “one thing” as well as some of the older ones.