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I think one of the biggest arguments against the Amish way of life being the most Christian is their tradition of rumspringa, the “running around” time before a young person (usually in their late teens) chooses to be baptized into the Amish faith. There are other reasons that I could name, but this one, to me, is the most disturbing.
What rumspringa entails is giving the young person a chance to experience life outside the stringent rules of the Amish, to make sure they are ready to accept the responsibilities baptism brings. Young women may sneak out to a movie or to a mall, try on “English” or “fancy” clothes, leave their prayer *Kapp *off and let their hair loose, wear makeup, maybe even date an “English” boy. Young men may try drinking alcohol, smoking, driving cars, listening to music, wear “English” clothes or date “English” girls. While many young people do choose to remain Amish and are baptized, a few, once having tasted the outside world, do leave. What they leave behind are torn-apart families, for they are then banned or shunned from the community… including their parents and siblings. In truth, many parents are not exactly thrilled with this tradition–a tradition that encourages teenagers to sneak around behind their parents’ backs–but it is an ACCEPTED tradition and is implicitly, if not explicitly, encouraged!
While this may seem like “so what? everyone sows wild oats”, there is something deeper at stake. An Amish woman would be banned or shunned if she continued to wear makeup or leave her hair uncovered once she was baptized. An Amish man could not drink, smoke or drive a car once he was baptized, lest he be shunned or banned. That’s how grave those matters are, like mortal sins. Would the Catholic Church… or any other church for that matter… encourage prospective members to go out an commit mortal sins before they decide to join? Of course not! The Church calls us to repent and sin no more and is there to encourage and help us when we do fall. Imagine telling a prospective RCIA candidate that the Catholic Church forbids fornication and abortion, but since you haven’t been baptized yet, go ahead and see what it’s like before you decide if you want to follow the Church’s teachings.
An extreme example? Perhaps. But then Catholics aren’t banned from church and community if the women don’t wear veils to Mass or the men smoke or drink. The Amish are. And a way of life that not only expects its members to try a life of sin, but encourages it, can’t be the most Christian.
What rumspringa entails is giving the young person a chance to experience life outside the stringent rules of the Amish, to make sure they are ready to accept the responsibilities baptism brings. Young women may sneak out to a movie or to a mall, try on “English” or “fancy” clothes, leave their prayer *Kapp *off and let their hair loose, wear makeup, maybe even date an “English” boy. Young men may try drinking alcohol, smoking, driving cars, listening to music, wear “English” clothes or date “English” girls. While many young people do choose to remain Amish and are baptized, a few, once having tasted the outside world, do leave. What they leave behind are torn-apart families, for they are then banned or shunned from the community… including their parents and siblings. In truth, many parents are not exactly thrilled with this tradition–a tradition that encourages teenagers to sneak around behind their parents’ backs–but it is an ACCEPTED tradition and is implicitly, if not explicitly, encouraged!
While this may seem like “so what? everyone sows wild oats”, there is something deeper at stake. An Amish woman would be banned or shunned if she continued to wear makeup or leave her hair uncovered once she was baptized. An Amish man could not drink, smoke or drive a car once he was baptized, lest he be shunned or banned. That’s how grave those matters are, like mortal sins. Would the Catholic Church… or any other church for that matter… encourage prospective members to go out an commit mortal sins before they decide to join? Of course not! The Church calls us to repent and sin no more and is there to encourage and help us when we do fall. Imagine telling a prospective RCIA candidate that the Catholic Church forbids fornication and abortion, but since you haven’t been baptized yet, go ahead and see what it’s like before you decide if you want to follow the Church’s teachings.
An extreme example? Perhaps. But then Catholics aren’t banned from church and community if the women don’t wear veils to Mass or the men smoke or drink. The Amish are. And a way of life that not only expects its members to try a life of sin, but encourages it, can’t be the most Christian.
W
WenckebachCath
Guest
The Amish are not shunned by their families if they choose to not enter their order through Baptism. According to what I have found out, they are free to choose another way of life at that point, and still visit their families. They are only shunned if they leave or disobey the rules after baptism.
P
Publisher
Guest
You are correct…no one is shunned or is the ban imposed IF they chose to follow another religious tradition…usually Brethren or Mennonite…and some none at all…it is ONL****Y if the person chooses to undergo baptism…a covenant with God and Community AND then decide to leave or break faith…only then is the ban imposed…only then does the shunning take place and only then are families “torn apart”.
It is part of the Anabaptis tradition…baptism is a solemn and serious rite…as binding as marriage…if not more so…only through a prolonged repentance process can fellowship be restored if the baptismal covenant is broken…no covenant…no ban.
It is part of the Anabaptis tradition…baptism is a solemn and serious rite…as binding as marriage…if not more so…only through a prolonged repentance process can fellowship be restored if the baptismal covenant is broken…no covenant…no ban.
Sorry I was wrong on that point, but from what I’ve seen with some friends (and not even the stricter Amish, but Mennonite), while there might not be an outright bann or shunning, the young people who do not choose to join the community in baptism are treated “politely”, more like friends than family. The friend in question left home before she was baptized, met and married a young man from a different Christian faith (and different ethnic background) and while her family did attend the wedding (as did we), they were quite standoffish, even with their own daughter/sister. Mom did melt a bit when her daughter walked down the aisle, but she looked more like someone who was waiting to have dental work done than a proud or happy mother-of-the-bride (of course, I don’t know what a Mennonite wedding would be like, so maybe she was just uncomfortable with the whole thing.) Our friend has said that visits to her sisters and their families are “cordial” and short… she and her husband feel as if her family is afraid of their being a “bad influence” on the other young members of their households.
So while there is no “actual” bann or shunning of unbaptized family members, from what I’ve seen, my friend feels as if the road home has been closed almost as if she had been shunned. I’m sure that’s not true of all families, but it happens maybe more than is let on to outsiders.
So while there is no “actual” bann or shunning of unbaptized family members, from what I’ve seen, my friend feels as if the road home has been closed almost as if she had been shunned. I’m sure that’s not true of all families, but it happens maybe more than is let on to outsiders.
W
WenckebachCath
Guest
If you read the letters of Paul, shunning fallen away members was what he taught. This is entirely Scriptural even if by our modern, worldly standards it seems cruel. In my opinion their faith is more undiluted by pressures of the World than most other Christian faiths, including ours. I’m speaking here of community accountablity and cohesiveness of their communion. Our Catholic orders are operated on similar principles, but our laity is not a cohesive community by any means.
According to my inquiries, they have a communion service twice a year. I’m not sure what their theology is regarding that.
According to my inquiries, they have a communion service twice a year. I’m not sure what their theology is regarding that.
P
Publisher
Guest
I would suspect that any uneasyness or “standoffishness” sensed would be similar if a child raised Catholic left and joined a different church or married someone of another faith…I have a Catholic friend who married an Episcopalian…they both now attend an Orthodox church…the same sentiments your Mennonite friend displays sounds very similar to how my friends Catholic family has treated him and his wife. I don’t think it’s…religion specific…it’s just the way it is many times I think.Sorry I was wrong on that point, but from what I’ve seen with some friends (and not even the stricter Amish, but Mennonite), while there might not be an outright bann or shunning, the young people who do not choose to join the community in baptism are treated “politely”, more like friends than family. The friend in question left home before she was baptized, met and married a young man from a different Christian faith (and different ethnic background) and while her family did attend the wedding (as did we), they were quite standoffish, even with their own daughter/sister. Mom did melt a bit when her daughter walked down the aisle, but she looked more like someone who was waiting to have dental work done than a proud or happy mother-of-the-bride (of course, I don’t know what a Mennonite wedding would be like, so maybe she was just uncomfortable with the whole thing.) Our friend has said that visits to her sisters and their families are “cordial” and short… she and her husband feel as if her family is afraid of their being a “bad influence” on the other young members of their households.
So while there is no “actual” bann or shunning of unbaptized family members, from what I’ve seen, my friend feels as if the road home has been closed almost as if she had been shunned. I’m sure that’s not true of all families, but it happens maybe more than is let on to outsiders.
K
kage_ar
Guest
Since I actually KNOW Amish folks, well, I can say that the people I know are kind and gentle, intelligent, devout people. One family does not prove they are all so - but, that is my experience.
H
hermitcrab
Guest
Wondering, please, how this is to be lived out in everyday practical terms?
Because it is such a broad statement and very vague.
And not what, I think, the OP means.
Thank you
Because it is such a broad statement and very vague.
And not what, I think, the OP means.
Thank you
Simplicity is a state of mind.
Just because a person is living a “rural” lifestyle doesn’t mean that their mind is free of strife.
True simplicity is to be at peace in every situation, in the midst of the hustle and bustle, even in the face of adversity.
True simplicity is to become detached from this world and in constant communion with God.
W
WenckebachCath
Guest
What I meant was that the Amish way of communal life as a Christian body is very effective for nurturing the highest virtues in it’s members, more so than other Christian communions, including Catholicism. If one were to measure their success by the results they produce, I think that that their communities best exemplify the Christian ideal on many levels.Wondering, please, how this is to be lived out in everyday practical terms?
Because it is such a broad statement and very vague.
And not what, I think, the OP means.
Thank you
K
Keikiolu
Guest
Where is the “CATHOLICITY” in the Amish way of life? A quality which is most necessary and demanded by Jesus.I saw an excellent documentary about the Amish people. In my opinion, their approach to Christianity is excellent, and they as a people better reflect Christ’s teachings than any other group. They are like a Catholic order, but for married people.
You pretty much have to be born into this way of life, so I won’t be joining soon, But, I’m considering how I can imitate some of their virtues in my own life, and disengage from the frantic, soul killing pace of modern life.
The documentary explained how the Amish people were extremely careful to review any new technology by the elders of their community, in order to assess the impact in would have upon their goal to live in the world but not of it, and to maintain the integrity of their community. They see the community as an intregal part of living out the gospel, and it’s integrity is paramount.
I’m most impressed with their philosophy. Most Christian groups of today embrace the values of the world in too many ways.
If they associate only with themselves,… how are their pagan neighbors to be “enlightened”?
They are a “remnant”. They are probably a “nice” remnant,… but they are representative NOT of “Christians” but of the people of their founders time.
“MOST CHRISTIAN”…?
Nah…
C
Catholic_Dude
Guest
They are secluded from the world, a bubble, there is no room from spreading the Gospel nor other public acts of charity. The Gospel calls to live in the world but be spiritually separated not physically to the point of seclusion.What I meant was that the Amish way of communal life as a Christian body is very effective for nurturing the highest virtues in it’s members, more so than other Christian communions, including Catholicism. If one were to measure their success by the results they produce, I think that that their communities best exemplify the Christian ideal on many levels.
They are so behind in terms of technology and education that should they ever lose their federally protected land they would die off because they wouldn’t be able to adapt. They can only hide for so long until the modern world closes in on them.
M
Montalban
Guest
Here I find myself defending Catholics!I totally disagree. Our religion has entirely adapted to the world.
Many Catholics aren’t happy with the world as it is. Some move to change it. Others to change themselves by retreating from the world - such as into monasteries.
You have no point.
M
Montalban
Guest
Not only that, they have arbitrarily fixed themselves upon a particular date as if the world only became evil after 1860, or whenever their technology goes up to.They are secluded from the world, a bubble, there is no room from spreading the Gospel nor other public acts of charity. The Gospel calls to live in the world but be spiritually separated not physically to the point of seclusion.
And I note that they still try to comply with this evil world. Their plain horse carriages have lighting on them as according to the rules. If they think the world’s so evil, then they ought fight against such.
C
Catholic_Dude
Guest
Thats an interesting point about the seemingly arbitrary date at which technology became unacceptable. I dont know the details but if they are using a tractor or welding or something that cant go back more than 200 years.Not only that, they have arbitrarily fixed themselves upon a particular date as if the world only became evil after 1860, or whenever their technology goes up to.
And I note that they still try to comply with this evil world. Their plain horse carriages have lighting on them as according to the rules. If they think the world’s so evil, then they ought fight against such.
M
Montalban
Guest
I’ve not seen them weld, but I had imagined that they would have used heat-forging methods of welding.That’s an interesting point about the seemingly arbitrary date at which technology became unacceptable. I don’t know the details but if they are using a tractor or welding or something that cant go back more than 200 years.
I did a blacksmithing class for a brief while a long time ago and although we used forges with modern air-flow fans the basic principle was that of many many centuries ago.
See Forge Welding
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forge_welding
That was, however, until I read the following…
“Electric generators can be used for welding, recharging batteries, and powering milk stirrers.”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish#Separation_from_the_outside_and_among_groups
If this is true, then their application to a rule regarding refusal of modern means seems slightly sinuous.
H
hermitcrab
Guest
A monastery or convent is never a retreat from anything. Any monk or nun will avow to that…they laugh when anyone says this… hence the paucity of them… Prayer changes the world after all.
The Holy Father has recently praised enclosed orders - who are most often thought to be running away - and also hermits…(apologies; cannot find the article just now, but will so so.)
Saint Benedict who founded monasticism simply rejected much of what the world thinks is good… I think that that is what the OP is saying.
Many wonder these days if it is any longer possible to exist as pure Christians in this world . Choosing to reject is not running away. It is choosing the better life in many aspects. Like deciding not to have TV but to use that time for prayer or to help others.
The Holy Father has recently praised enclosed orders - who are most often thought to be running away - and also hermits…(apologies; cannot find the article just now, but will so so.)
Saint Benedict who founded monasticism simply rejected much of what the world thinks is good… I think that that is what the OP is saying.
Many wonder these days if it is any longer possible to exist as pure Christians in this world . Choosing to reject is not running away. It is choosing the better life in many aspects. Like deciding not to have TV but to use that time for prayer or to help others.
Here I find myself defending Catholics!
Many Catholics aren’t happy with the world as it is. Some move to change it. Others to change themselves by retreating from the world - such as into monasteries.
You have no point.
S
Sixtus
Guest
I hope you do not mean the Holy Apostolic Orthodox Catholic,I but I personally think that they have a more Christian way of life than most Catholics.
E
Eden
Guest
I haven’t read this entire thread, but in response to the original poster, if Catholics, Jews, Protestants, etc. had not fought against Hitler in WWII, the Amish people would now be under Nazi control and unable to live their peaceful way of life. I think it’s a very idealized vision you have of the Amish life. They would not have the religious freedom they do to conscientiously object to going to war, if other Americans hadn’t lost their lives fighting for our freedoms. Think about it. It’s the rest of American society that protects the Amish way of life.
M
Montalban
Guest
It’s a retreat from the modern world. It’s why it’s often called a ‘retreat’ when people adopt a monastic/hermetic lifeA monastery or convent is never a retreat from anything. Any monk or nun will avow to that…they laugh when anyone says this… hence the paucity of them… Prayer changes the world after all.
Retreats
newadvent.org/cathen/12795b.htm
The Holy Father has recently praised enclosed orders - who are most often thought to be running away - and also hermits…(apologies; cannot find the article just now, but will so so.)
I don’t suggest that it is a ‘running away’, but a withdrawal from the modern hectic life.
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