The Apostasy according to Joseph Smith

[rod_of_iron]

Andrew Larkoski:

Acts 2:38-9: Peter (said) to them, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit. For the promise is made to you and to your children and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call.” Again, the Cross saves children, also.

Interesting. How many infants have you witnessed in the act of repenting before they are baptized? Infants do not speak yet, especially if they are only a week or two old. Peter declare that repentance is necessary before baptism takes place. How would you know if an infant was repenting? What would the infant be repenting of? Being born? It is not the infants fault that he or she was born. When Peter speaks of the promise being made to the children of the ones he was speaking to, he was not saying that the children needed to be baptized as children. Instead, Peter was declaring to them that his promise was not just for their generation alone, but for all generations after that, including their children’s generation. This is obvious when Peter includes the phrase, “whomever the Lord our God will call.”
Andrew Larkoski:

Whole houses were often baptized, as in Acts 16:15: “After she and her household had been baptized . . .” meaning too the children. Again, in Acts 16:33: [H]e and all his family were baptized at once," and in 1 Cor. 1:16: “I baptized the household of Stephanas also . . .” Clearly, Scripture does not forbid infant baptism (the necessity of infant salvation), but instead offers us many examples of entire households receiving God’s forgiveness.

You can’t use a 21st century understanding of the word, “household”, to argue this point. Who was considered to be a part of a household in the first century? Were children included when referring to the household? If you believe they were, prove it. Since children and wives may have been seen as subordinate or even as property, can we say without a shadow of a doubt that the word, “household”, would refer to them?

But let’s assume that the word, “household”, does mean every human in the house. Can you show me in either of your examples that the households had any little children in them? From the contexts around those quoted verses, there is no mention of children being part of those households. Therefore, you are basing your argument on assumption. You cannot establish facts on assumption or speculation.

(continued …)

 

[rod_of_iron]

Andrew Larkoski:

Early Church Fathers have a piece to say about infant baptism. St. Hippolytus of Rome said in “The Apostalic Tradition” to “Baptize first the children; and if they can speak for themselves, let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them.” Origen said in "Homilies on Leviticus that “Baptism is given for the remission of sins; and according to the usage of the Church, Baptism is given even to infants.” I could continue with Early Church Fathers opinions of Baptism, but I think you get the point. It has been performed since the time of Christ by His Church.

Guess what? Hippolytus and Origen are not mentioned in the Bible. I believe that all these Early Church Fathers are irrelevant to the discussion because they lived after the apostasy. Let’s stick with the Bible. You will not be able to convince me based on the documents of these Early Church Fathers.
Andrew Larkoski:

I like the way you tied your statement up: “A church that practices infant baptisms is an apostate church.” Well, I would have to say that a church that denies infant salvation would be in no way founded on Jesus Christ.

Name one baby that Jesus baptized. If Jesus instituted infant baptism, there should be proof that He baptized one. Perhaps, His apostles baptized one. Can you give me a name? As I have said, Jesus told the people that they had to become as little children to be part of the kingdom of God. If children are born sinners, Jesus must have meant that we must become sinners to enter the kingdom. Is that really what you want to promote?

 

[Delgadoajj]

TOm:

There’s no way around it: Jesus instituted only one church, and that is the Catholic Church. It doesn’t matter how many letters, or other early church writings you quote to prove an apostasy. It doesn’t matter how many of these passages you study and compare and consider and put together and try to interpret. The fullness of the Truth is in the Catholic Church.

You said yourself you didn’t know your faith when you left the Church. That’s probably one of the reasons you left: You didn’t know your faith. Now you know about your prior faith, but you use your knowledge about your prior faith with the objective to prove that it is not the true faith, when in fact, it is, and it has always been.

I admire your initiative in studying history, but you are using a bazooka to kill an ant. In killing the ant, you blow yourself up too. The history of the Church is very straightforward and clear. The intentions of Jesus are straightforward and clear.

I wish you could understand that the fullness of Truth is in the Catholic Church. I pray to God that you may receive the Grace of the Holy Spirit with an open heart so you can accept this Truth.

In Christ,

Jorge.

 

[Catholic_Girl_9]

please stop debating with the mormons. obviously they’re not interested in hearing the truth. mormonism is a religion started by a salesman from new york. mohammed was also a salesman who said he recieved revalation from an angel. and russel of the JW was a salesman too.

all of them were good salesman. that’s why people bought into their fabrication. you should stick with the testimony of joe smith. if you can discredit him, you take out they’re foundation. which has been proven to be based on lies and deceit. for instance, he died not as a martyr, peacefully accepting his death, but he shot three people before he was killed by a angry mob. while was shot he gave the mason secret distress call to get help. he also married 27 women and 11 of them were married. he was notoriously racist and the BOM is proven to be a forgery. don’t wast time debating doctrine. their foundation is based on a lying adulterer-racist-salesman’s testomony of gold plates that some how dissapeared. also, this religon along with jw and 7th day adventist began shortly after religous freedom was protected.

this guy tom has been writing here for ever. what’s amazing is people can be smart but have no common sense. i don’t think tom is open to the truth. he thinks he can convert someone.

 

[rod_of_iron]

Catholic_Girl 9,

Your whole post is based on false assumptions. You are just as guilty of spreading false rumors as those in Joseph Smith’s day were. It cannot be proven that he had more than one wife. It cannot be proven that he had a gun in which he killed three people. It cannot be proven that he was a Mason. The Book of Mormon is very sound and very Hebrew in nature. And what’s this thing about Joseph Smith being a salesman? He was a farmer.

You are just showing your ignorance of Joseph Smith.

 

[Catholic_Girl_9]

rod of iron,

you’re absolutley right, unless you can prove something, it is all legend and rumor or fabrications, not the truth. just like those gold tablets from the angel moroni. unless you see them for yourself, you can’t believe they ever existed. why do you sign in as “rod of iron”?

 

[rod_of_iron]

Catholic_Girl 9:

rod of iron,

you’re absolutley right, unless you can prove something, it is all legend and rumor or fabrications, not the truth. just like those gold tablets from the angel moroni. unless you see them for yourself, you can’t believe they ever existed. why do you sign in as “rod of iron”?

If the golden plates were proven, they would be known, not believed. If you know something, you no longer have to believe in it. That’s the thing about faith, it is evidence of things not seen that are true. Therefore, you are mistaken when you claim that something must be seen to be believed. As I have said, once you have seen something, you have knowledge of it, not belief in it. The only thing that can be believed is something that is not seen.

 

[Andrew_Larkoski]

rodofiron:

I have but one question for you. Provide me evidence that an apostasy occurred. Heck, I could believe that Christ will take up all of His faithful to Heaven before the Tribulation. Oddly enough, this doctrine is only about 150 years old. So is Mormonism. So where do these ideas come from?

If an apostasy occurred, wouldn’t people in the fourth century know about it? or in the 10th century? or in the 17th century? Yet where are writings from these eras that SPECIFICALLY state that an apostasy occurred? You didn’t acknowledge any of the Bible passages or writings of Early Chruch Fathers (because they were ambiguous to you), so neither will I. I want a writing from the ante-Joe Smith era that states “an apostasy occurred.”

God has infinite patience, but I do not. I will take advice from Catholic Girl and quit debating unless you will accept the traditions and history of the Catholic Church and listen to my view.

Good luck.

 

[boppysbud]

Rod of Iron, you say that you a not a Utah (LDS) Mormon, but you are obviously a mormon of some kind.

Are you a member of the Reorganised/Community of Christ church? A member of the Sidney Rigdon Church of Christ from Penna?
A Strangite?
A member of the Temple Site church?
One of the several “fundamentalist” mormon churches?
Or an ideosyncratic mormon in the “church of one member”?

 

[Catholic_Girl_9]

these are some facts about mormonism from the book “no man knows my history”, a biography of joseph smith, and Fr. Mitch Pacwa.

1. Joseph Smith was a salesman like Mohamed and the founder of the JW. All three of these groups lower Jesus’s nature from God to a creature. By doing so they believe the holy spirit is a force, and they all believe that in heaven we will not see Jesus face to face but will either be a god ourselves, like Jesus was the son of a man from the planet Kolob, and or have sex in heaven with virgins or multiple wives. They lower God as a result too.
   “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed” Gal. 1:8.

2 )Joseph Smith sold scams or stock in silver mines by claiming he could find silver using tricks like divining rods or looking through stones. He was arrested for starting a bank in Ohio but didn’t back up his notes with gold. Also arrested for destroying a printing press of a moromon run newspaper because he didn’t like what the owner said about him.

1. He had around 40 wives, some of who were married, and married a mother and daughter having the father still alive -broke up a family.
2. Did not die a martyr like Jesus and the apostles and saints but had a six shooter and was shooting people as an angry mob attacked him. His brother was killed and he jumped out of a window, broke his leg and died while giving a secret mason distress signal.
3. They claim the Catholic Church fell into apostacy by saying we did away with revalation and changed our beliefs. Yet they change their doctrine all the time, i.e. no black priests, polygamy (forced to end by u.s. army), the doctrine that we men become ‘gods’ of our own planets, …etc. They can’t prove that the Catholic Church did away with any doctrine but we can prove they did. What does this say for mormonism?
4. Joseph Smith bought a mummy and egyptian scrolls from the 1 or 2nd century B.C. The book of moses is proven to be a forgery and was hidden or lost until 1968 when the original scrolls were found in a NYC museum. Egyptologist found that it was a copy of a section of the egyptian book of the dead and had nothing to do with moses or abraham.

7)Book of mormon tells of jews going to the “new world” thousands of years ago with horses, sheep, brass, wheat, barley, the wheel, iron, camels… etc. but not one bit of evidence of these old world technologies exists before the time of Columbus.

 

[rod_of_iron]

Catholic_girl 9,

Why would you quote from a book that was written in 1945, to prove what happened more than 100 years before? The writer of the book, No Man Knows My History, was Fawn Brodie. She was born in 1915 and died in 1981. Joseph Smith died in 1844. Therefore, it would have been impossible for Fawn to have met Joseph Smith or to know him at all. This being the case, her book could not be an example of firsthand knowledge. Anything she wrote in her book would be secondhand information at best.

Since I have never read her book, could you tell me if she identified the documents she used when coming to her conclusions? Where did she get the idea that Joseph Smith was a salesman? Where did she get the idea that he sold scams or silver? Where did she get the exact count for the wives he allegedly had? Where did she get the idea that he had a gun and that he died in a shootout? Where did she get the idea for anything she claimed about Joseph Smith? Since her book is not a firsthand account, it can only be an example of hearsay. You have to do better than just quoting from a book written and published 101 years after the death of Joseph Smith and written by an author born 71 years after he died. Without any verifiable firsthand accounts by which she based her book upon, her book is only her opinion.

Finally, the name of her book is quite telling. If no man knows the history of Joseph Smith, this would include Fawn Brodie. Therefore, her book should more accurately be called, “Fawn Brodie does not know the history of Joseph Smith”.

 

[Calvin]

boppysbud:

A member of the Temple Site church?

Bingo

-C

 

[rod_of_iron]

Andrew Larkoski:

rodofiron:

I have but one question for you. Provide me evidence that an apostasy occurred.

Let’s begin with the predictions in the Bible. The following scriptures fortell of an impending apostasy. They are:

Matthew 24:9-12 – “Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.”

Acts 20:28-30 – “Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.”

2 Thessalonians 2:3-7 – “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.”

1 Timothy 4:1-3 – “Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.”

2 Peter 2:1-3 – “But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.”

Perhaps, you will not accept these as proof, but there can be no doubt that the Bible teaches that people would fall away from the true doctrines and gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[rod_of_iron]

Calvin:

Bingo

-C

Calvin, you are a member of the Church of Christ (Temple Lot)? I never would have guessed.

As for me, I was a member of the RLDS before it started teaching false doctrine. I now refer to myself as a Restoration Saint, because I believe in the same doctrines and church that was restored in 1830.

 

[Catholic_Girl_9]

rod of iron,

she backed up everything with references. It only happened 150 years ago.

christianity-books.com/No_Man_Knows_My_History_The_Life_of_Joseph_Smith__The_Mormon_Prophet_0679730540.html

reveiw:

"This is the most comprehensive, factual book about Joseph Smiths life to date. The author backs up every statement with references on where the information was obtained and how the research was acquired. Very objective and educational.

I’m going to buy it and i encourage you to read it too and make your own decision.

wives:
wivesofjosephsmith.org/home.htm

here are some references about his death

utlm.org/onlineresources/josephsmithsdeath.htm

 

[darcee]

rod of iron:

Let’s begin with the predictions in the Bible. The following scriptures fortell of an impending apostasy. They are:
Perhaps, you will not accept these as proof, but there can be no doubt that the Bible teaches that people would fall away from the true doctrines and gospel of Jesus Christ.

Not a single one of your quotes says the entire church will fall into apostasy only that some will be led astray… by people like Joseph Smith.

-D

 

[Dr_Paul]

rod of iron:

Matthew 24:9-12 –
Acts 20:28-30 –
2 Thessalonians 2:3-7 –
1 Timothy 4:1-3 –
2 Peter 2:1-3 –

Perhaps, you will not accept these as proof, but there can be no doubt that the Bible teaches that people would fall away from the true doctrines and gospel of Jesus Christ.

These passages in no way prove, or even imply total apostosy. Yes, they clearly indicate that SOME will fall away. No argument there. I don’t mean to be inflammatory but have you ever considered that the LDS church falls into the category that is referred to in these passages? The issue is the claim of TOTAL apostsy. These passages do not say this. Staying on “scriptural evidence”, quite the opposite is foretold. Christ promised He would always remain with His church.

 

[Delgadoajj]

Source: Dictionary.com Word of the Day

apostasy

\Apos"tasy, n.; pl. Apostasies. [OE. apostasie, F. apostasie, L. apostasia, fr. Gr. ? a standing off from, a defection, fr. ? to stand off, revolt; ? from + ? to stand. See Off and Stand.] An abandonment of what one has voluntarily professed; a total desertion of departure from one’s faith, principles, or party; esp., the renunciation of a religious faith; as, Julian’s apostasy from Christianity.

One is in apostasy only if one falls outside of the church Jesus instituted. Since Jesus only instituted the Catholic Church, anyone rejecting this church falls under the condition of apostasy.

In Christ,

Jorge.

 

[TOmNossor]

Delgadoajj:

Source: Dictionary.com Word of the Day

apostasy

\Apos"tasy, n.; pl. Apostasies. [OE. apostasie, F. apostasie, L. apostasia, fr. Gr. ? a standing off from, a defection, fr. ? to stand off, revolt; ? from + ? to stand. See Off and Stand.] An abandonment of what one has voluntarily professed; a total desertion of departure from one’s faith, principles, or party; esp., the renunciation of a religious faith; as, Julian’s apostasy from Christianity.

One is in apostasy only if one falls outside of the church Jesus instituted. Since Jesus only instituted the Catholic Church, anyone rejecting this church falls under the condition of apostasy.

In Christ,

Jorge.

LDS do not believe that this definition of apostasy came to pass.

LDS believe in an apostasy of authority. It was completely gone in 1820. LDS believe there are some heretical beliefs in religion and prophets with authority have and continue to correct heresy.

I even believe that the restoration has lifted many different religions even ones who reject and/or fight against LDS authority. There are a few examples, but the best Catholic one I know of is that Extreme Unction post Vatican II moved much closer to the way LDS practice blessing and anointing the sick than it was previous to Vatican II.

Charity, TOm

 

[darcee]

LDS do not believe that this definition of apostasy came to pass.

LDS believe in an apostasy of authority. It was completely gone in 1820. LDS believe there are some heretical beliefs in religion and prophets with authority have and continue to correct heresy.

I even believe that the restoration has lifted many different religions even ones who reject and/or fight against LDS authority. There are a few examples, but the best Catholic one I know of is that Extreme Unction post Vatican II moved much closer to the way LDS practice blessing and anointing the sick than it was previous to Vatican II

That is not my understanding of what the LDS church teaches.
From the LDS point of view Joseph Smith also restored “lost doctrine”, corrected “false teachings” and brought forth the “fullness of the gospel.”
This is much much more then just a loss of authority.
Don’t forget JS’s first vision calls the creeds of the churches existing in 1820 “an abomination”.
If you want to know what the LDS really teach about the “apostasy” read here: ldsfaq.byu.edu/emmain.asp?number=18 Where it says:

Joseph Smith in his first vision (1820) was told by Christ that all existing churches had gone astray, both in their teachings and in their practice, although they had “a form of godliness” (JS—H 1:18–19). Thus it was necessary for a “restoration” of the gospel to take place.

Note the official version of this first vision says:

I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

-D