The Apostle John, The Three Nephites and the "Great Apostasy"

[Catholic_Guy]

According to Mormon theology not all of the original twelve apostles, including three Nephite apostles, did not die.

D&C 7:1-3
1 And the Lord said unto me: John, my beloved, what desirest thou? For if you shall ask what you will, it shall be granted unto you.
2 And I said unto him: Lord, give unto me power over death, that I may live and bring souls unto thee.
3 And the Lord said unto me: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, because thou desirest this thou shalt tarry until I come in my glory, and shalt prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people.
and

3 Nephi 28:4-9
4 And when he had spoken unto them, he turned himself unto the three, and said unto them: What will ye that I should do unto you, when I am gone unto the Father?
5 And they sorrowed in their hearts, for they durst not speak unto him the thing which they desired.
6 And he said unto them: Behold, I know your thoughts, and ye have desired the thing which John, my beloved, who was with me in my ministry, before that I was lifted up by the Jews, desired of me.
7 Therefore, more blessed are ye, for ye shall never taste of death; but ye shall live to behold all the doings of the Father unto the children of men, even until all things shall be fulfilled according to the will of the Father, when I shall come in my glory with the powers of heaven.
8 And ye shall never endure the pains of death; but when I shall come in my glory ye shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye from mortality to immortality; and then shall ye be blessed in the kingdom of my Father.
9 And again, ye shall not have pain while ye shall dwell in the flesh, neither sorrow save it be for the sins of the world; and all this will I do because of the thing which ye have desired of me, for ye have desired that ye might bring the souls of men unto me, while the world shall stand.

I think this brings up a lot of questions.

1. If John the Apostle has not died and is supposedly still among us teaching, how did God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit through John allow the church to enter into apostasy? Did his Apostolic Authority disappear or simply stop? How does this reconcile with your apologetics of “The Great Apostasy” when according to your own doctrine, not all the apostles died.
2. Why didn’t John prevent any writings, practices, and dogma of the Early Church from being lost if he is truly around to have kept them safe?
3. When Joseph Smith received the Melchizedek Priesthood and apostleship from Peter, James, and John; did John actually stroll up in his immortal flesh while Peter and James appeared in their angelic form?
4. Why are John and the three Nephites missing in action from the scene in the “True and Restored Church” in Salt Lake City? Why is John the Apostle who was given this authority directly by Christ during His ministry on Earth, not the head of his church? The same question applies to the three Nephites.

Pax Christi,

Catholic Guy

 

[Catholic_Dude]

This is a very interesting thread, I cant wait to see what some Ex-LDS have to say.

 

[JonathanKinsman]

This is a very interesting thread, I cant wait to see what some Ex-LDS have to say.

CD,

It’s not the exLDS that will respond: they know better, they are Christians now (I hope Catholic Christians!).

Zerinus the Z-bot and his minions are avoid this thread. PM them with a request to clarify it for us non-Mormons.

Pax Christi

Jonathan

 

[Catholic_Dude]

CD,

It’s not the exLDS that will respond: they know better, they are Christians now (I hope Catholic Christians!).

Zerinus the Z-bot and his minions are avoid this thread. PM them with a request to clarify it for us non-Mormons.

Pax Christi

Jonathan

Thats a good idea, I will PM Zerinus and ask him to clarify.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

On question four, inexperienced LDS missionaries will give testimony of someone they know saw them alive on earth.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

The Three Nephites and Other Translated Beings
by Dana, Bruce E.

Translated Beings by Mark L. McConkie

Latter-day Saint scriptures speak of a unique class of beings, persons whom the Lord has “translated” or changed from a mortal state to one in which they are temporarily not subject to death, and in which they experience neither pain nor sorrow except for the sins of the world. Such beings appear to have much greater power than mortals. All translated beings will eventually experience physical death and resurrection (MD, p. 807-808). Translation is a necessary condition in special instances to further the work of the Lord.

Translated beings are not resurrected beings, though all translated beings either have since been or yet will be resurrected or “changed in the twinkling of an eye” to a resurrected state (3 Ne. 28:8). In effect, this last change is their death, and they therefore receive what amounts to an instantaneous death and resurrection. Resurrection is a step beyond translation, and persons translated prior to the resurrection of Christ were resurrected with him (cf. D&C 133:54-55); it is expected that those translated since Christ’s resurrection will be resurrected at his second coming.

During the period from Adam to Melchizedek, many faithful persons were translated. Enoch and the righteous residents of his city of Zion were translated not many years after Adam’s death (Moses 7:18-21, 31, 63, 69; D&C 38:4; 45:11-14; 84:99-100; Gen. 5:22-24; Heb. 11:5). During the period from Enoch to Noah, it appears that faithful members of the Church were translated, for “the Holy Ghost fell on many, and they were caught up by the powers of heaven into Zion” (Moses 7:27).

After the Flood, others were also translated. In his inspired rendition of the Bible, Joseph Smith tells of many who “were translated and taken up into heaven” (JST Gen. 14:32-34). Fewer translations apparently occurred in the New Testament era, though John the beloved (John 21:20-23; D&C 7) and the three Nephites were translated (3 Ne. 28).

Translated beings are assigned special ministries, some to remain among mortals, as seems to be the case of John and the Three Nephites, or for other purposes, as in the case of Moses and Elijah, who were translated in order to appear with physical bodies hundreds of years later on the mount of transfiguration prior to the resurrection of Christ. Had they been spirits only, they could not have laid hands on the mortal Peter, James, and John (cf. D&C 129:3-8). Why those of Enoch’s city were translated, we are not specifically informed, although the Prophet Joseph Smith explained the role of translated beings thus: “Many have supposed that the doctrine of translation was a doctrine whereby men were taken immediately into the presence of God, and into an eternal fullness, but this is a mistaken idea. Their place of habitation is that of the terrestrial order, and a place prepared for such characters He held in reserve to be ministering angels unto many planets, and who as yet have not entered into so great a fullness as those who are resurrected from the dead” (TPJS, p. 170).

The scriptures do not define differences between transfiguration and translation, but it appears that transfiguration is more temporary, as in Matthew 17:1-9 and Moses 1:11, occurring primarily to permit one to behold spiritual things not possible in the mortal condition.

(SeeBasic Beliefs home page; Teachings About the Afterlife home page)

Bibliography

Pratt, Orson. “The Doctrine of Translation.” JD 17:146-49

lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/afterlife/translated_eom.htm

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I still am interested to see what some Ex-LDS have to say unless some LDS want to speak up.

 

[JonathanKinsman]

I still am interested to see what some Ex-LDS have to say unless some LDS want to speak up.

Our resident Mormons (besides the industrial complex known as Zerinus) are chasjohn, wademann, catholic_miles and alma.

PM them and ask for (name removed by moderator)ut.

If you do not hear from them within a few days, you can assume that this topic is embarrassing and inconvenient to explain away when trolling for Mormon converts.

Pax Christi

Jonathan

 

[nd_smc_02]

I have just started researching Catholic apologetics and Mormonism as my Mormon friend has began questioning me about my faith.

All of your posts have been so helpful. (Even the ones from Zerinus, as they consistently point out so many flaws and contradictions about the BoM).

I can’t wait to see the answer to this question, and I can’t wait to ask my friend this question when she tells me about the “wickedness of the world left from the great apostasy”. If St. John is still alive, and if the Mormons are right about the apostasy, John did not do a very good job protecting the word of God.
This is just getting more and more ridiculous.

 

[nd_smc_02]

No answers yet???

 

[chasjohn]

According to Mormon theology not all of the original twelve apostles, including three Nephite apostles, did not die.

I think this brings up a lot of questions.

1. If John the Apostle has not died and is supposedly still among us teaching, how did God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit through John allow the church to enter into apostasy? Did his Apostolic Authority disappear or simply stop? How does this reconcile with your apologetics of “The Great Apostasy” when according to your own doctrine, not all the apostles died.
2. Why didn’t John prevent any writings, practices, and dogma of the Early Church from being lost if he is truly around to have kept them safe?
3. When Joseph Smith received the Melchizedek Priesthood and apostleship from Peter, James, and John; did John actually stroll up in his immortal flesh while Peter and James appeared in their angelic form?
4. Why are John and the three Nephites missing in action from the scene in the “True and Restored Church” in Salt Lake City? Why is John the Apostle who was given this authority directly by Christ during His ministry on Earth, not the head of his church? The same question applies to the three Nephites.

I’ll be happy to try to answer these questions. However, I’m on my way to an appointment right now. I’ll try to get back to it later tonight or tomorrow.

 

[majick275]

I can speak for the “ex-LDS”. what exactly do you want to know? (just for clarity I asked these same questions myself as a Mormon and the answers led me to Rome)

 

[Sixtus]

Catholic Guy

Why is John the Apostle who was given this authority directly by Christ during His ministry on Earth, not the head of his church? The same question applies to the three Nephites.

My question exactly

 

[chasjohn]

According to Mormon theology not all of the original twelve apostles, including three Nephite apostles, did not die.

D&C 7:1-3
1 And the Lord said unto me: John, my beloved, what desirest thou? For if you shall ask what you will, it shall be granted unto you.
2 And I said unto him: Lord, give unto me power over death, that I may live and bring souls unto thee.
3 And the Lord said unto me: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, because thou desirest this thou shalt tarry until I come in my glory, and shalt prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people.
and

3 Nephi 28:4-9
4 And when he had spoken unto them, he turned himself unto the three, and said unto them: What will ye that I should do unto you, when I am gone unto the Father?
5 And they sorrowed in their hearts, for they durst not speak unto him the thing which they desired.
6 And he said unto them: Behold, I know your thoughts, and ye have desired the thing which John, my beloved, who was with me in my ministry, before that I was lifted up by the Jews, desired of me.
7 Therefore, more blessed are ye, for ye shall never taste of death; but ye shall live to behold all the doings of the Father unto the children of men, even until all things shall be fulfilled according to the will of the Father, when I shall come in my glory with the powers of heaven.
8 And ye shall never endure the pains of death; but when I shall come in my glory ye shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye from mortality to immortality; and then shall ye be blessed in the kingdom of my Father.
9 And again, ye shall not have pain while ye shall dwell in the flesh, neither sorrow save it be for the sins of the world; and all this will I do because of the thing which ye have desired of me, for ye have desired that ye might bring the souls of men unto me, while the world shall stand.

There is another scripture that should be quoted in this context. It is this:
“John 21:20 - 23:
20 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper…
21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?”

I think this brings up a lot of questions.

1. If John the Apostle has not died and is supposedly still among us teaching, how did God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit through John allow the church to enter into apostasy? Did his Apostolic Authority disappear or simply stop? How does this reconcile with your apologetics of “The Great Apostasy” when according to your own doctrine, not all the apostles died.

Their authority didn’t disappear or stop. They simply received a different mission. As stated above, in D&C 7:3, their mission was to:“prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people”

There were at least six other times in history when there was a “falling away” [apostacy] and a “restoration” [dispensation]. These are discussed here: tinyurl.com/bz10

1. Why didn’t John prevent any writings, practices, and dogma of the Early Church from being lost if he is truly around to have kept them safe?

The Lord provided other means to preserve the scriptures [Bible], for which we are very grateful

1. When Joseph Smith received the Melchizedek Priesthood and apostleship from Peter, James, and John; did John actually stroll up in his immortal flesh while Peter and James appeared in their angelic form?

By this time, Peter and James were resurrected beings.

1. Why are John and the three Nephites missing in action from the scene in the “True and Restored Church” in Salt Lake City?

This was not their mission, as stated above

Why is John the Apostle who was given this authority directly by Christ during His ministry on Earth, not the head of his church? The same question applies to the three Nephites.

Again, this is not their mission.

By the way, I asked a similar question in another forum: Why was authority given to St. Linus in 67 AD to head the church, while John the Apostle was still alive, whether he later died or not?

 

[Nan_S]

Why is John the Apostle who was given this authority directly by Christ during His ministry on Earth, not the head of his church? The same question applies to the three Nephites.

The assertion of the LDS is that the apostles had full authority whereas their successors were apostate. Hence our question about why John, the last remaining apostle, did not take action against the apostacy and assume the leadership which belonged to his apostleate.

The Catholic Church counts the leadership through Peter and Peter’s appointed successors, the succession right being given by Jesus only to Peter and passed on through his spiritual “sons.” We recognize the leadership role of the other apostles in their own communities and sees as being sub-ordinate to Peter’s. But the assumption of authority over the whole church is not by lateral succession of a spiritual “brother” apostle in preference to a son.

 

[nd_smc_02]

;
The Lord provided other means to preserve the scriptures [Bible], for which we are very grateful

If the Lord preserved the scriptures through “other means”, why did he not preserve the Chruch from its Mormon alleged apostasy? What other means are you speaking of?

 

[nd_smc_02]

One more thing that I forgot…
I have also read that Joseph Smith *edited * the Bible and Mormons use/quote from. If the Bible was preserved, as chasjohn explained, why was it changed by Smith?

 

[Catholic_Dude]

One more thing that I forgot…
I have also read that Joseph Smith *edited * the Bible and Mormons use/quote from. If the Bible was preserved, as chasjohn explained, why was it changed by Smith?

From what I have read on the official lds webpage is that they dont believe the Bible was preserved from error, but rather it was corrupted along the way.

 

[chasjohn]

Also, when my Mormon friends try to convince me of the apostasy, they always tell me that the apostasy happened after the death of the last apostle. Why is it that I am hearing so many different things from different Mormons? Mormon posters: Do you believe the apostles died or not? If so, why do the Mormons I know say the apostasy happened at the death of the last apostle?

I will try to be more precise with regard to the apostacy. .We believe that when individuals or groups turn away from the principles of the gospel, they are in a state of apostasy.Periods of general apostasy have occurred throughout the history of the world. After times of righteousness, people have often turned to wickedness. One example is the Great
Apostasy, which occurred after the Savior established His Church. After the deaths of the Savior and His Apostles, except John who did not die, men corrupted the principles of the gospel and made unauthorized changes in Church organization and priesthood ordinances.
Because of this widespread departure, the Lord
withdrew the authority of the priesthood from the earth.
During the Great Apostasy, people were without divine direction from living prophets. Many churches were established, but they did not have priesthood power to lead people to the true knowledge of God the Father and Jesus Christ.
Parts of the holy scriptures were corrupted or lost, and no one had the authority to confer the gift of the Holy Ghost or perform other priesthood ordinances. This apostasy lasted
until Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith in 1820 and initiated the restoration of the fulness of the gospel.

 

[Brad_Haas]

There were at least six other times in history when there was a “falling away” [apostacy] and a “restoration” [dispensation]. These are discussed here: tinyurl.com/bz10

I’m interested to read that, but the link doesn’t seem to work for me. What’s the title of the article, the publication, and its date?