The Apostles & Islam

[Montalban]

How important is Jesus (Yeshua) to Islam?

You just reminded me. Moslems say Jesus was ordinary man - but he was born of a virgin, and he didn’t die, and he’ll come back to judge all men.

Maybe these things happen all the time!

 

[MMLJ]

Is this one of the twelvers?

No,

The Ismāʿīlī (Urdu: اسماعیلی Ismāʿīlī, Arabic: الإسماعيليون al-Ismāʿīliyyūn; Persian: اسماعیلیان Esmāʿīliyān) branch of Islam is the second largest part of the Shī’a community, after the Twelvers (Ithnāʿashariyya).
(wikipedia)

 

[Montalban]

No,

The Ismāʿīlī (Urdu: اسماعیلی Ismāʿīlī, Arabic: الإسماعيليون al-Ismāʿīliyyūn; Persian: اسماعیلیان Esmāʿīliyān) branch of Islam is the second largest part of the Shī’a community, after the Twelvers (Ithnāʿashariyya).
(wikipedia)

So the twelvers is yet another sect?

Some are expecting ‘the Mahdi’

 

[MMLJ]

You just reminded me. Moslems say Jesus was ordinary man - but he was born of a virgin, and he didn’t die, and he’ll come back to judge all men.

Maybe these things happen all the time!

Precisely, as you and others on this thread well know how evasive they are. It is how they have been conditioned to reply to questions. This conditioning blinds them to fact/proof, even when cited from their own literature, i.e. The Qur’an’.
What does it portray, when citing the Koranic error of the Trinity to them, and yet most in Islam cannot even grasp such a trivial error? It is just this mental conditional that has, as we have seen, proven to be an effective tool in their propaganda.

 

[MMLJ]

So the twelvers is yet another sect?

Some are expecting ‘the Mahdi’

Google or Yahoo! the Aga Khan, you will be surprised. I have friends who are of this cult. the Ismailis. Many muslims prefer not to talk about them, since their claim is that he (Aga Khan) is the direct descendant of Muhammad (via the marriage of his daughter to his cousin Ali). The Aga Khan is one of the richest men in the world, a multi-billionaire.

 

[Montalban]

Google or Yahoo! the Aga Khan, you will be surprised. I have friends who are of this cult. the Ismailis. Many muslims prefer not to talk about them, since their claim is that he (Aga Khan) is the direct descendant of Muhammad (via the marriage of his daughter to his cousin Ali). The Aga Khan is one of the richest men in the world, a multi-billionaire.

My favorite person in history (other than church people) is General Charles Gordon (portrayed by Chareton Heston in the film Khartoum - when he confronted one such Madhi)

 

[hamba2han]

“In more recent times the nomenclature - hadith, isnad and matn - has become restricted to mean those stories for which the original narrator was Muhammad or the original narrator told a story involving Muhammad.” from the first Wikipedia link.

So that answers one of my questions, but why bring up isnad and the apostles at all when isnad is only used for Muhammed?

Reading the provide links still do not answer the OP at all.

Also it is interesting to note the same link as I quoted above provides us with this: “… their method of authentication by isnād introduced to Islam by Jewish converts.” It was claimed earlier Islam is the only religion to have isnad, but it seems it was a Jewish concept.

The stories of the apostles found in the Bible do not have ‘isnad’ and this is why Muslims do not consider these stories to be reliable accounts and therefore unacceptable… unless of course when they appear in the Qur’an which incidentally does mention these disciples of Jesus (pbuh) in a few such verses .

Also, when Jews and Christians or anyone else reverts to Islam, they then become just Muslims… Period.

 

[Booklover]

The stories of the apostles found in the Bible do not have ‘isnad’ and this is why Muslims do not consider these stories to be reliable accounts and therefore unacceptable… unless of course when they appear in the Qur’an which incidentally does mention these disciples of Jesus (pbuh) in a few such verses .

Also, when Jews and Christians or anyone else reverts to Islam, they then become just Muslims… Period.

It never ceases to amaze me how Muslims love to pretend that Islam was the religion from the beginning! Denial, denial! Islam didn’t exist until Muhammad invented it! Period!

Vickie

 

[George_Waters]

The stories of the apostles found in the Bible do not have ‘isnad’ and this is why Muslims do not consider these stories to be reliable accounts and therefore unacceptable… unless of course when they appear in the Qur’an which incidentally does mention these disciples of Jesus (pbuh) in a few such verses .

Also, when Jews and Christians or anyone else reverts to Islam, they then become just Muslims… Period.

OK, again; since the apostles appear in the Quran and as they are viewed by Muslims as Muslims, you would think Muslims would try to find out more about them instead of all but ignoring them.

Yes converts would be whatever they convert to, but it was claimed only islam has isnad and your link stated otherwise.

 

[hamba2han]

OK, again; since the apostles appear in the Quran and as they are viewed by Muslims as Muslims, you would think Muslims would try to find out more about them instead of all but ignoring them.

Yes converts would be whatever they convert to, but it was claimed only islam has isnad and your link stated otherwise.

How can Muslims find out more about the apostles in an acceptable way using the Science of Hadith??.. They had been dead for some 600 years at the time of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), remember?

Who was there back then during the time of the apostles to directly report and narrate what they said or did and also just as importantly, who was there to check and verify the character of those people who are narrating on these stories of the apostles along each step of the chain of transmission until it was finally recorded in a book?

This is what ‘isnad’ is all about and the stories of the apostles as written in the Bible simply do not have any ‘isnad’ whatsoever.

 

[Kadaveri]

How important is Jesus (Yeshua) to Islam?

I’m not sure how to answer this question, but I guess he’s pretty much as important as you can get. We believe that the greater part of his role will come *after *his second coming however; when he completes the reconstruction of Solomon’s Temple with a restored Ark of the Covenant and defeats the Anti-Christ, God willing.

Montalban:

You just reminded me. Moslems say Jesus was ordinary man - but he was born of a virgin, and he didn’t die, and he’ll come back to judge all men.

We believe he was a man, but not an ordinary man. Not believing someone was God incarnate doesn’t mean we must view him as just some normal man.

And we don’t believe he’ll come back to judge all men, I don’t know where you got that from.

 

[George_Waters]

How can Muslims find out more about the apostles in an acceptable way using the Science of Hadith??.. They had been dead for some 600 years at the time of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), remember?

Who was there back then during the time of the apostles to directly report and narrate what they said or did and also just as importantly, who was there to check and verify the character of those people who are narrating on these stories of the apostles along each step of the chain of transmission until it was finally recorded in a book?

This is what ‘isnad’ is all about and the stories of the apostles as written in the Bible simply do not have any ‘isnad’ whatsoever.

OK, so let me see if I have this right. Muslims claim Jesus and his apostles were Muslims, but can not even use their own “science” to support their claim?

“Who was there back then during the time of the apostles to directly report and narrate what they said or did and also just as importantly, who was there to check and verify the character of those people who are narrating on these stories of the apostles along each step of the chain of transmission until it was finally recorded in a book?”

Well according to you Muslims were around back then why didn’t they do it? Or are you going to blame Paul for these early “Muslims” not recording things in an acceptable manner?

 

[Booklover]

OK, so let me see if I have this right. Muslims claim Jesus and his apostles were Muslims, but can not even use their own “science” to support their claim?

“Who was there back then during the time of the apostles to directly report and narrate what they said or did and also just as importantly, who was there to check and verify the character of those people who are narrating on these stories of the apostles along each step of the chain of transmission until it was finally recorded in a book?”

Well according to you Muslims were around back then why didn’t they do it? Or are you going to blame Paul for these early “Muslims” not recording things in an acceptable manner?

Great thought provoking post, George! Let’s see how they get around this one.

Vickie

 

[hamba2han]

OK, so let me see if I have this right. Muslims claim Jesus and his apostles were Muslims, but can not even use their own “science” to support their claim?

Muslims believe that the Prophets Adam and Noah (pbut) were also Muslims.

Unfortunately, the ‘Science of Hadith’ by itself cannot really prove this and so we have to rely on the Qur’an for verification of this.

Question for Christians and Jews:

Why doesn’t the words ‘Judaism’ or ‘Christianity’ appear even once in the Bible?

 

[Booklover]

Muslims believe that the Prophets Adam and Noah (pbut) were also Muslims.

Unfortunately, the ‘Science of Hadith’ by itself cannot really prove this and so we have to rely on the Qur’an for verification of this.

Question for Christians and Jews:

Why doesn’t the words ‘Judaism’ or ‘Christianity’ appear even once in the Bible?

What proof do you have that Islam was the religion from the beginning?? Where is Islam mentioned before Muhammad came along?

Vickie

 

[inJESUS]

OK, so let me see if I have this right. Muslims claim Jesus and his apostles were Muslims, but can not even use their own “science” to support their claim?

“Who was there back then during the time of the apostles to directly report and narrate what they said or did and also just as importantly, who was there to check and verify the character of those people who are narrating on these stories of the apostles along each step of the chain of transmission until it was finally recorded in a book?”

Well according to you Muslims were around back then why didn’t they do it? Or are you going to blame Paul for these early “Muslims” not recording things in an acceptable manner?

good question. But lets be realistic. Islam knows nothing of Jesus’ teachings. Can we expect Muhammad to know the teachings of the apostles?

Besides, lets go back in history, in fact, to the Bible itself. You do know that there were Jewish converts to Christianity, at the apostles’ time, but who rejected their teachings. These converts wanted to “judaize” (sp?) the gentile converts to Christianity and wanted to apply the Law as they wanted, not as Jesus or the disciples taught. Did these people die? no, we know they tried to influence others against the teachings of the apostles, during their lifetime and after the apostles’ death. These people REJECTED the apostles’ teachings . These people were rejected hence, by both Jews and Christians, and they spread their teachings elsewhere. Muhammad repeats their teaching : you are nothing if you don’t follow the Torah AND Injeel. This is not what the apostles taught regarding non-Jews. This is what those who OPPOSED the apostles taught. Do you really expect Muhammad to quote the apostles when he adopted the belief of these people?

 

[George_Waters]

And we don’t believe he’ll come back to judge all men, I don’t know where you got that from.

With all due respect I have seen that statement made by many Muslim posters on this forum. If I come across on sometime I will re-post it.

 

[George_Waters]

Question for Christians and Jews:

Why doesn’t the words ‘Judaism’ or ‘Christianity’ appear even once in the Bible?

That is not germane to this thread! You can ask that on another thread if you wish, but I am tired of people attempting to side track discussions when they can not come up with answers!

 

[George_Waters]

Do you really expect Muhammad to quote the apostles when he adopted the belief of these people?

I do not, but if the apostles were what Muslims claim then Muslims should be able to do so. That is all I have been asking. They can not and you are correct!

 

[inJESUS]

actually i do understand very well your answer and it is very good but i tackled it from a different perspective, that is, even if Muhammad could trace the teachings of the apostles, would he quote them? of course not, in the same way those Jewish converts did not quote them