The Ark of the Covenant in the New Testament

[LittleSoldier]

+JMJ+
And we do too. However, how does that figure with Mary being or not being the Ark of the Covenant?

Hmmm… Methinks that some people believe that Catholics believe that Mary, being sinless, did not require a Savior. I ran across this before a long time ago. A poster wrote that Mary had to have sinned because only sinners need Saviors - which is not true. Of course Mary needed a Savior!

And it is completely off-topic. It would make a good topic for a new thread, though. “Did Mary Need a Savior?”

 

[GaryTaylor]

Oh that would be directly opposed the early church teachings. And I can show how I do believe.

Mary was in need of Savior. And a good case can be made for more than anyone.

 

[saveusfromhell]

Oh that would be directly opposed the early church teachings. And I can show how I do believe.

Mary was in need of Savior. And a good case can be made for more than anyone.

gary can you devolp that further for me, as ive never thought about it before, no original sin and sinless?

 

[GaryTaylor]

gary can you devolp that further for me, as ive never thought about it before, no original sin and sinless?

google.com/url?q=http://www.staycatholic.com/ecf_immaculate_conception.htm&sa=U&ei=FOEJT9mnCqL10gHl0-SgAg&ved=0CCMQFjAG&sig2=FhUcf4VybtUOX2yHl6TjMw&usg=AFQjCNHVKTw43TMuPK7TbPFEAAsllWpA3g

Here’s the theory I believe. Marys Faith was so profound, that it certainly was acknowledged by the Father through the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary thus Jesus. All where dead to this point, heaven was closed.

Mary needed a Savior because She so believed in one. And as Jesus stated; As You Believe so it will be.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Paul specifically states that grace belongs to Jesus and specifically states that grace was given to us by Jesus before the beginning of time.
Paul states that it was Jesus’ “own purpose and grace. (and that) This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time”
2Tim 1:9

Any time anyone would say that grace comes from another source other than what God has specifically declared and clearly defined… I stand with what is made perfectly clear by God himself… Again Paul makes it perfectly clear where grace, as well as all else pertaining to our perfection comes from when he states simply and clearly who we must look to:
Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith
Heb 12:2

You can look to whomever you choose. I choose to follow the direct admonition to … fix my eyes on Jesus.

All grace comes from God.

That does not mean that grace cannot come from God *through *a person. Grace is good. God is responsible for all that is good. All glory and all honor go to God, even if that glory goes through another person. Mary, created by God and full of grace by His doing, reflects the glory of God by her actions.

Let us fix our eyes on Jesus. However, the parable of the sheep and goats makes it clear that whatever we do to another human being we do to Jesus and whatever we fail to do for another human being we fail to do for Jesus. By failing other people we fail Jesus, who is God. We fail God. By keeping our eyes fixed on other people we *are *fixing them on Jesus (and also following the second of His Great Commandments).

If someone is ignoring a starving person because he wants to be very careful about keeping his eyes fixed only on Jesus, he is letting Jesus starve. That can’t be good. The goats in the parable chose to ignore Jesus by ignoring His people, His creations. And they were damned for what they did and for what they failed to do.

ALL glory and honor to You, Almighty Father, from Whom all good things come!

AVE MARIA! GRATIA PLENA! DOMINUS TECUM! BENEDICTA TU IN MULIERIBUS, ET BENEDICTUS FRUCTA VENTRIS TUI, IESUS. SANCTA MARIA! MATER DEI! ORA PRO NOBIS PECCATORIBUS, NUNC, ET IN HORA MORTIA NOSTRAE. AMEN!

 

[GaryTaylor]

All grace comes from God.

Withour Doubt. Thank God Mary understood That!

 

[LittleSoldier]

Here are some great quotes from 3rd Century on the Mary as the new Ark:

“***The ark is verily the holy Virgin, gilded within and without***, who received the treasure of universal sanctification. Arise, O Lord, from the Father’s bosom, to raise up again the ruined race of our first parent” (Orat. in Deip. Annunciat. Int. Opp. S. Greg. Thaumaturg) (Blessed Virgin, p. 89). St. Gregory Thaumaturgus (c. **213-c. 270**)

Thank you for posting this. It shows that Mary was not only sinless but the Second Eve (who was also formed without Original Sin but failed). And Mary succeeded!

“As Christ our priest was not chosen by hand of man, ***so neither was His tabernacle framed by men,*** but was ***established by the Holy Ghost; and by the power of God is that tabernacle protected, to be had in everlasting remembrance,*** Mary, God’s Virgin Mother” (S. Dionysius of Alexandria, Respons. ad Quoest. v. Pauli Samos) (Blessed Virgin, p. 81). St. Dionysius (**died 264**)

Source: catholicfidelity.com/apologetics-topics/mary/church-fathers-on-mary-as-ark-of-the-new-covenant/

MJ

Thank you for posting the link. I’ll check it out.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Thank you for posting this. It shows that Mary was not only sinless but the Second Eve (who was also formed without Original Sin but failed). And Mary succeeded!

Thank you for posting the link. I’ll check it out.

Here’s where it gets mind blowing when you start comparing the different church’s of the Apostles early AD.

google.com/url?q=http://catholicpatristics.blogspot.com/2009/03/immaculate-conception.html&sa=U&ei=59-BT97cMsbB0QGH79j-Bw&ved=0CBAQFjAA&sig2=yYKG5QdQ_0bMWVk9PG2ymg&usg=AFQjCNFXbBesRSVK1Ca6ox_gBtuVZffY_w

Then you really need to read into the footnotes and research the specific works also. Long trail of the same belief in teaching/liturgys/eucharist etc.

 

[1voice]

Now in dilemma you stated.

“I am not focused on the Catholic belief that Mary was sinless.
My focus is on the concept Gary proposes that all grace flows through Mary” Now listen carefully.

---

“All Grace” flowed through Mary as the Holy Spirit overshadowed Her so yes she is Full of Grace.

… As is Stephen:
“Now Stephen, a man full of God’s grace and power, did great wonders and miraculous signs among the people.”
Acts 6:8

 

[GaryTaylor]

… As is Stephen:
“Now Stephen, a man full of God’s grace and power, did great wonders and miraculous signs among the people.”
Acts 6:8

The Path of the Saints. As you believe so it will be. The Holy Spirit will guide you, He guides all who call His name constantly.

 

[1voice]

Quote GT:
“All Grace” flowed through Mary as the Holy Spirit overshadowed Her so yes she is Full of Grace.

Originally Posted by 1voice
… As is Stephen:
“Now Stephen, a man full of God’s grace and power, did great wonders and miraculous signs among the people.”
Acts 6:8

The Path of the Saints. As you believe so it will be. The Holy Spirit will guide you, He guides all who call His name constantly.

Stephen and Mary were both described as being full of grace.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Quote GT:
“All Grace” flowed through Mary as the Holy Spirit overshadowed Her so yes she is Full of Grace.

Originally Posted by 1voice
… As is Stephen:
“Now Stephen, a man full of God’s grace and power, did great wonders and miraculous signs among the people.”
Acts 6:8

Stephen and Mary were both described as being full of grace.

Have to do some reading and Greek translations. There your answer resides. Let me know should you want the links. CAF search also. Nothing new under the Sun.

There are 3 people said to be “full of grace” in the NT (in the English). Christ, Mary and Stephen. The Greek word “kecharitomene” is only applied to Mary and is part of the reason we believe in the Immaculate Conception. It is the only time the word appears in the Bible. Note: Only the Douay Rhiems and RSV-CE translate it “full of grace” in the English (Luke 1:28).

Stephen too was “full of grace” (in a different way - different Greek) at his death. Difference with Mary is that she started this way by the Annunciation.

Remember I said Adam and Eve were also immaculately “conceived” (created). And the second Adam (Christ) and the second Eve (Mary) were also immaculate.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Quote GT:
“All Grace” flowed through Mary as the Holy Spirit overshadowed Her so yes she is Full of Grace.

Originally Posted by 1voice
… As is Stephen:
“Now Stephen, a man full of God’s grace and power, did great wonders and miraculous signs among the people.”
Acts 6:8

Stephen and Mary were both described as being full of grace.

That does not necessarily mean that they were both full of grace in the same way.

And Mary was full of grace *before *the Holy Spirit overshadowed her - if this is in reference to the conception of Jesus. Gabriel spoke to her as “full of grace” before she even agreed to accept the mission.

Also, Stephen was not the Theotokos or a perfect Ark of the Covenant. Mary is both.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Have to do some reading and Greek translations. There your answer resides. Let me know should you want the links. CAF search also. Nothing new under the Sun.

There are 3 people said to be “full of grace” in the NT (in the English). Christ, Mary and Stephen. The Greek word “kecharitomene” is only applied to Mary and is part of the reason we believe in the Immaculate Conception. It is the only time the word appears in the Bible. Note: Only the Douay Rhiems and RSV-CE translate it “full of grace” in the English (Luke 1:28).

Stephen too was “full of grace” (in a different way - different Greek) at his death. Difference with Mary is that she started this way by the Annunciation.

Remember I said Adam and Eve were also immaculately “conceived” (created). And the second Adam (Christ) and the second Eve (Mary) were also immaculate.

I should have just given a to your post instead of writing my last one. I was going to start the search for the Greek word for “full of grace” when used in reference to Mary (I did it once before and it took me quite some time; especially because what I first found used Greek letters). Thanks for posting it for me. You saved me a lot of time!

 

[stewstew03]

No, they don’t…It seems that when Luke wanted to make a connection between Elijah and John the Baptist (in Luke 1 exactly) he just said it plainly. In contrast, however, I am supposed to believe that when he wanted to make a connection between the Ark and Mary (in that very same chapter) he resorted to dropping hints? That makes no sense and the hints aren’t even that good. How long did it take the early church fathers to figure out Luke’s code? …and today it seems that Catholic Venerators feel obliged to fudge or enhance the hints so that they appear to be better than they actually are The alleged connection isn’t believable.

Radical, how long did it take the reformers to discover the hidden code in 2 Timothy 3:16? Does it make any sense for St Paul to drop hints on such an important issue? If he meant scripture was sufficient (sola scriptura), why didn’t he just come right out and say it? [This is a rehtorical question asserted to make a point, but you’re welcome to answer it].

[BIBLEDRB]2 Timothy 3:16-17[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[stewstew03]

Hmmm… Methinks that some people believe that Catholics believe that Mary, being sinless, did not require a Savior. I ran across this before a long time ago. A poster wrote that Mary had to have sinned because only sinners need Saviors - which is not true. Of course Mary needed a Savior!

And it is completely off-topic. It would make a good topic for a new thread, though. “Did Mary Need a Savior?”

I made a not-so-successful attempt to approach this subject on a thread that I started here.

The basic premise is that if a protestant believes Mary was born with the stain of Original Sin, then that protestant must reach the absurd conclusion that Mary was “naturally” inclined to reject (rather than accept) her own Son, and would thus be naturally opposed to her Son.

 

[PRmerger]

Hey, I dont mind agreeing with Catholics … or anyone else … when they agree with the Bible…

But the problem is that the Bible says things that are difficult to understand, that the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, right?

So what you really mean, 1voice, is that you don’t mind agreeing with Catholics when they agree with your own fallible, personal interpretation of the Bible, yes?

 

[PRmerger]

It is clear what Paul is saying … and what he means.
It is also clear when Jesus said specifically … the Counselor (whom Paul describes as “The Spirit of grace” Heb10:29) , the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send** in my name**, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. John 14:26

Amen!

There are multiple references to grace in the old as well as the new testament. Grace is always attributed directly to God.

Except when Paul says that he gives it.

Mary is never … ever … (correct me if Im wrong ) mentioned.

And then we’re back to that man-made tradition that you’ve espoused that things have to be found only in the Scriptures for you to believe it.

Mary, in the beautiful Magnificat
points only to her Savior… ( HER SAVIOR!!! !) ( HER … S-A-V-I-O-R) !!!

I agree with her … completly.

Amen!

God did save her…from sin, from the moment of her conception.

 

[PRmerger]

… As is Stephen:
“Now Stephen, a man full of God’s grace and power, did great wonders and miraculous signs among the people.”
Acts 6:8

Just curious, 1voice: does the inspired writer use the same word for Mary as he does for Stephen?

I believe not.

In the original Greek the inspired writer uses* kecharitomene* to describe the Blessed Mother.

He uses the words pleres charitas for St. Stephen.

Clearly a distinction of significance, yes?

 

[mark_a]

do you have anything worthwhile to ask?

According to Radical, is it heresy for anyone to think of Mary as the ark of the new covenant?