The atheists best argument?

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Charles Lea was roundly criticized for his anti-Catholic bigotry, so you ought to be careful with whom you ally yourself, no?

Would you mind quoting from Charles Lea so that we can see his and your anti-Catholic bigotry on full display?
Martin Luther was roundly criticized for his anti-Roman Catholic bigotry, but Pope John Paul II “praised Martin Luther, the father of the Reformation who was excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church, saying the world is still ‘‘experiencing his great impact on history.’’”
nytimes.com/1983/11/06/world/pope-praises-luther-in-an-appeal-for-unity-on-protest-anniversary.html
As far as burning heretics is concerned this was endorsed by Roman Catholic theologians and by a papal bull promulgated on 15 June 1520 by Pope Leo X. The error that burning a heretic is not the will of God is such an error that "No one of sound mind is ignorant how destructive, pernicious, scandalous, and seductive to pious and simple minds these various errors are, how opposed they are to all charity and reverence for the holy Roman Church who is the mother of all the faithful and teacher of the faith " If anyone dares to disagree with this then he is subject to an automatic major excommunication because:
“With the advice and consent of these our venerable brothers, with mature deliberation on each and every one of the above theses, and by the authority of almighty God, the blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and our own authority, we condemn, reprobate, and reject completely each of these theses or errors as either heretical, scandalous, false, offensive to pious ears or seductive of simple minds, and against Catholic truth. By listing them, we decree and declare that all the faithful of both sexes must regard them as condemned, reprobated, and rejected . . . We restrain all in the virtue of holy obedience and under the penalty of an automatic major excommunication…”
 
We are asking (still) what are the normative moral precepts you are espousing.
I would assume that you would be in agreement if I suggested that one should not follow a set of moral rules without question. I therefore assume that you follow the moral guidelines that your church proscribes because of, not depite, the fact that you hold them to be correct.

That is, you have considered each in turn and have come to the conclusion that they are correct. And that they will form the basis of a moral life should you follow them. Despite the fact that there is the possibility of you failing to gain the keys to the kingdom should you fail to live up to them, you follow them because you believe them to be correct.

And if there are moral problems encountered that are not directly covered by the Catechism, or scripture or the words of Jesus, then you will find something from these sources that will give you guidance.

Incidentally, the reason that you, presumably, find these rules acceptable is that they come with reasons. It’s not like your dad used to tell you: just because I say so. The church will say: Do this because A, B and C. And do not do this because of X, Y and Z. And these reasons are entirely, well…reasonable. If they weren’t, then you wouldn’t accept them. And wouldn’t be a Catholic.

And reasons relate to evidence. At least in my world. That is, if there is something I shouldn’t do and there are reasons for it, there will be evidence to support those reasons. Otherwise we are just back to your dad and do what I say because I say it.

Now if you don’t agree with any of this, then you can skip the next bit. Because we will be forever talking past each other.

I get my morality from doing the same as you. Either being told that something is wrong or reading it and then considering whether it appears reasonable by examining the evidence. And my guess is that we would agree on almost everything. Someone could pose a moral problem and we would reach the same answer. In the process perhaps quoting from someone who had already solved the problem and had offered reasonable evidence to back it up.

On some occasions I might quote the same example as would you, from scripture (I was brought up as a Christian and I was never told anything in regard to morals on which I didn’t agree). In regard to others I might give a different example. But we would both agree with the moral stance whoever said it.

So, apart from matters such as SSM and sex outside marriage and contraception to give a brief list of areas where we might disagree (and you might notice a common thread there), what is the difference between your system of morals and mine?

Well, it would seem that any given Catholic would say he or she is obliged to follow the moral rules of the church whereas I can simply choose to follow what I believe or not. So does that mean you cannot choose? But, as we have seen above, haven’t you already? Did you simply become a Catholic because of the bells and whistles and then later sat down and thought: ‘Righto, what am I now supposed to believe…’.

I would really like to think that you are a Catholic BECAUSE you agree with what the Catholic church stands for, not that you are a Catholic and must THEREFORE agree with what the church stands for.

There is another reason which involves post mortem punishment. But being an atheist, I have no expectations in that regard so I am free to ignore it. Horrors! So you can actually do what you want with no fear of puishment!

Well, no fear of eternal punishment. Yeah, quite correct. I may live my life stealing and murdering and committing all types of crimes against humanity and the only punishment I am likely to get is in the here and now. At least, that is what I believe. I may be wrong. But I don’t try my best to live a moral life because I might be wrong. I do it because it’s what makes me a moral person.
 

For instance, the Catholic Church observes that it is always and everywhere immoral to take innocent human life. …
Only a small but very important correction to this statement as originally misquoted by another poster:

“No one can under any circumstance claim for himself the right directly to destroy an innocent human being.” CCC#2258

While the taking of innocent life is always and everywhere an evil is not always and everywhere immoral.
 
Martin Luther was roundly criticized for his anti-Roman Catholic bigotry, but Pope John Paul II “praised Martin Luther, the father of the Reformation who was excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church, saying the world is still ‘‘experiencing his great impact on history.’’”
nytimes.com/1983/11/06/world/pope-praises-luther-in-an-appeal-for-unity-on-protest-anniversary.html
As far as burning heretics is concerned this was endorsed by Roman Catholic theologians and by a papal bull promulgated on 15 June 1520 by Pope Leo X. The error that burning a heretic is not the will of God is such an error that "No one of sound mind is ignorant how destructive, pernicious, scandalous, and seductive to pious and simple minds these various errors are, how opposed they are to all charity and reverence for the holy Roman Church who is the mother of all the faithful and teacher of the faith " If anyone dares to disagree with this then he is subject to an automatic major excommunication because:
“With the advice and consent of these our venerable brothers, with mature deliberation on each and every one of the above theses, and by the authority of almighty God, the blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and our own authority, we condemn, reprobate, and reject completely each of these theses or errors as either heretical, scandalous, false, offensive to pious ears or seductive of simple minds, and against Catholic truth. By listing them, we decree and declare that all the faithful of both sexes must regard them as condemned, reprobated, and rejected . . . We restrain all in the virtue of holy obedience and under the penalty of an automatic major excommunication…”
Well, no, the “burning of heretics” was not positively endorsed in the Bull. What was condemned was that the following statement…
  1. That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit.
That amounts to a condemnation of anyone who claims to know with certainty that the burning of heretics is against the will of the Spirit because they can’t know that for certain. That is, logically and semantically a far cry from a positive endorsement of the burning of heretics.

It would be similar to condemning someone who makes the claim that fighting in wars is against the will of the Spirit.

How would they know that? It assumes that no possible justification exists for fighting a war or burning a heretic.

Yet, Jesus himself claimed some reprobate souls would be liable to the fires of Gehenna. That would imply that burning is sometimes a just penalty and not necessarily in every case “against the will of the Spirit.” So anyone who claims it is would be in error.

I have objected in the past to how you do not properly cite sources but pull quotes and use secondary references. This borders on deceit, at times.

Here is the Bull in its entirety.

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/L10EXDOM.HTM
 
Martin Luther was roundly criticized for his anti-Roman Catholic bigotry, but Pope John Paul II “praised Martin Luther, the father of the Reformation who was excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church, saying the world is still ‘‘experiencing his great impact on history.’’”
nytimes.com/1983/11/06/world/pope-praises-luther-in-an-appeal-for-unity-on-protest-anniversary.html
As Peter has already pointed out, you are entirely selective about quote-mining to suggest by the above quote that John Paul was “praising” Luther’s “great impact on history.” The breakup of Christendom initiated by Luther was a catastrophic event from which we are still suffering. Read the entire article, which hardly quotes John Paul directly at all (when did the *N.Y. Times *ever provide such a courtesy?) and you will see that John Paul is reaching out toward reconciliation between Lutherans and Catholics, not an admission that Luther’s impact on history was “great” in the positive sense.

Lutherans led the charge into the wilderness of modern Protestantism, and it would be very nice indeed if they led the charge from Protestantism back to the Church, but I won’t be holding my breath until they do. 🤷
 
And reasons relate to evidence. At least in my world. That is, if there is something I shouldn’t do and there are reasons for it, there will be evidence to support those reasons.
Ah. This is so very interesting to me to hear an atheist say this.

In your world view that humans are a result of chemical activity…how does it make sense to have a moral compass?

You’ve even alluded to the fact that you may not even believe we have free will. Yes? Is that still on the table?

So when you speak of “reasons relate to evidence”, you can see how it makes me scratch my head…HUH?

What is most consonant with the atheistic world view is that you do what you want (“want”. Hah. Since there is no free will that has no meaning), when you want because, hey, it’s all random and we’re a big bunch o’ chemicals anyway.

It makes NO SENSE to have an atheist claim to be a moral person. No atheist should be able to say: demanding that your execute your mother in order to demonstrate your fealty to me

is wrong.

What does make sense, however, is for the atheist to say: that is horrifically wrong
…because he has jumped on the back of the Believer’s Worldview.
 
Well, no fear of eternal punishment. Yeah, quite correct. I may live my life stealing and murdering and committing all types of crimes against humanity and the only punishment I am likely to get is in the here and now. At least, that is what I believe. I may be wrong. But I don’t try my best to live a moral life because I might be wrong. I do it because it’s what makes me a moral person.
Well, okay, but why is it important for you to be a “moral person?”

Your justification for being one either resides in your own will – you just capriciously want or choose to be one OR it resides somehow in reality – in the way things really are.

Now, material reality per se doesn’t add up to “moral person” because it, just as compellingly, leads to male lions eating their young. Ergo, physical reality as the ground of your wanting to be a “moral person” could just as cogently lead to your wanting to be a male lion who eats its own young. In fact, for some women these days it pretty much gets them almost there: killing their own young by dismembering and selling the parts. To their dubious credit, they might find actually eating their young a bit off-putting. For them, that is what it means to be a “moral person” just as for you it means something slightly different.

If it is on the strength of your own determination, itself, that you desire to be a “moral person,” then there need be no ground in reality that would lead you to want to be one, merely the nature of being you, yourself. Ergo, it would follow that other selves have as much autonomy to be the kind of “moral person” they envision. Hitler had a vision for what that meant and he strived to live it out. If no external warrant or determination of what “moral” means exists, then his version of “moral person” is just as legitimate as yours. Who are you to say different? And since no objective reality regarding what it really means to be a “moral person” exists, then to each his own.

On the other hand, if the reason – and you did claim having sound reasons for doing things was important – for wanting to be a “moral person” is not merely a subjective one, but somehow grounded in reality, in the way things are, then that would tell us something about reality. Reality, at ground, would have to support or point us towards “being a moral person” by its very nature.

I don’t see that “pointing” happening as a function of blind, unguided matter acting out the laws of physics and chemistry. The fundamental ground of reality would have to be moral in its very nature to objectively support anyone’s wanting to be “a moral person.”

So which is it? Where does your morality derive?
  1. In yourself.
  2. In the material laws of physics and chemistry
  3. In a fundamental ground of being which is essentially moral.
Again the logical problems with 1) and 2) are that these support any kind of “moral person” that can be imagined and lived out, including what many would call profoundly immoral ones.

That would leave 3) which gets us to morality being somehow grounded in the nature of reality itself.

Care to explain how that might work absent God?
 
As Peter has already pointed out, you are entirely selective about quote-mining to suggest by the above quote that John Paul was “praising” Luther’s “great impact on history.” The breakup of Christendom initiated by Luther was a catastrophic event from which we are still suffering. Read the entire article, which hardly quotes John Paul directly at all (when did the *N.Y. Times *ever provide such a courtesy?) and you will see that John Paul is reaching out toward reconciliation between Lutherans and Catholics, not an admission that Luther’s impact on history was “great” in the positive sense.

Lutherans led the charge into the wilderness of modern Protestantism, and it would be very nice indeed if they led the charge from Protestantism back to the Church, but I won’t be holding my breath until they do. 🤷
Many evil men – Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, etc., heck even Yersinia pestis – had “great impact” on the world, so you are correct that “great impact” does not necessarily translate to great positive impact.
 
Well, no, the “burning of heretics” was not positively endorsed in the Bull. What was condemned was that the following statement…
  1. That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit.
That amounts to a condemnation of anyone who claims to know with certainty that the burning of heretics is against the will of the Spirit because they can’t know that for certain.]
I don’t see any mention in the bull about claiming to know something with certainty. The document states “that heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit” is an error. against Catholic truth. And “that all the faithful of both sexes must regard them as condemned, reprobated, and rejected . . . We restrain all in the virtue of holy obedience and under the penalty of an automatic major excommunication…”
 
As Peter has already pointed out, you are entirely selective about quote-mining to suggest by the above quote that John Paul was “praising” Luther’s “great impact on history.” The breakup of Christendom initiated by Luther was a catastrophic event from which we are still suffering. Read the entire article, which hardly quotes John Paul directly at all (when did the *N.Y. Times *ever provide such a courtesy?) and you will see that John Paul is reaching out toward reconciliation between Lutherans and Catholics, not an admission that Luther’s impact on history was “great” in the positive sense.:
“Today Catholic scholars are among Luther’s greatest apologists, extolling him as a devout Reformer who tried to better the church in an age of corruption and greed. Catholic historians are calling him “one of the greatest witnesses to the Christian faith” and “our brother in Christ.” Luther’s “A Mighty Fortress Is Our God” is sung in Catholic churches. Even Pope John Paul II has acknowledged “the profound religiousness of Luther.””
ministrymagazine.org/archive/1987/10/the-reprieve-of-martin-luther
 
they say that they “believe in the common moral decencies: altruism, integrity, honesty, truthfulness, responsibility. Humanist ethics is amenable to critical, rational guidance. There are normative standards that we discover together. Moral principles are tested by their consequences.” and that they “are committed to the application of reason and science to the understanding of the universe and to the solving of human problems.”
I don’t mean to bother you, but can you flesh this out specifically?

What specifically are the humanist ethics?
What are the normative standards we discover together?

If you don’t have an answer, please say so and I will stop bringing it up.
 
Who decides?
You do, if this terrible cross ever falls on your shoulders.

Catholics are directed by the church’s teaching on the circumstances which may make such an act moral or immoral. To what authority for help in such a decision would an atheist call upon or is it purely subjective and situational?
 
I don’t see any mention in the bull about claiming to know something with certainty. The document states “that heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit” is an error. against Catholic truth. And “that all the faithful of both sexes must regard them as condemned, reprobated, and rejected . . . We restrain all in the virtue of holy obedience and under the penalty of an automatic major excommunication…”
So you are claiming to know, with certainty, “that heretics be burned [say, in Hell] is against the will of the Spirit?” How do you know that with certainty?

The word “burned” is non-specific, it could mean a plethora of things – consumed by fire is the basic idea. Is it always and everywhere against the will of the Spirit for heretics to be consumed by fire? Jesus didn’t think so. I would assume he knew something more about the will of the Spirit than you do.

By the way, and this is the crucial point. There is nothing in the condemnation 33 that endorses, in a positive way, all or any specific burnings of heretics. It doesn’t say anything like “it was correct for Heretic A or Heretic B to be burned.” It simply states that it is WRONG to assume or make the claim that “…heretics be burned is AGAINST the will of the Spirit.”

That does not amount to an endorsement of any human engagement in the burning of heretics, it merely states that it is wrong for any human to make claims about or to speak for what the Spirit does or does not will with regard to the treatment of heretics.

That is the logical entailment of the condemnation, not what you suppose derives from it.
 
Martin Luther was roundly criticized for his anti-Roman Catholic bigotry, but Pope John Paul II “praised Martin Luther, the father of the Reformation who was excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church, saying the world is still ‘‘experiencing his great impact on history.’’”
nytimes.com/1983/11/06/world/pope-praises-luther-in-an-appeal-for-unity-on-protest-anniversary.html
As far as burning heretics is concerned this was endorsed by Roman Catholic theologians and by a papal bull promulgated on 15 June 1520 by Pope Leo X. The error that burning a heretic is not the will of God is such an error that "No one of sound mind is ignorant how destructive, pernicious, scandalous, and seductive to pious and simple minds these various errors are, how opposed they are to all charity and reverence for the holy Roman Church who is the mother of all the faithful and teacher of the faith " If anyone dares to disagree with this then he is subject to an automatic major excommunication because:
“With the advice and consent of these our venerable brothers, with mature deliberation on each and every one of the above theses, and by the authority of almighty God, the blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and our own authority, we condemn, reprobate, and reject completely each of these theses or errors as either heretical, scandalous, false, offensive to pious ears or seductive of simple minds, and against Catholic truth. By listing them, we decree and declare that all the faithful of both sexes must regard them as condemned, reprobated, and rejected . . . We restrain all in the virtue of holy obedience and under the penalty of an automatic major excommunication…”
Burning heretics in the 1500’s, like many other barbarian acts,( slavery, bigotry etc.)… is not being done today. Even the Church had to learn through the centuries!
 
So you are claiming to know, with certainty, “that heretics be burned [say, in Hell] is against the will of the Spirit?” How do you know that with certainty?

The word “burned” is non-specific, it could mean a plethora of things – consumed by fire is the basic idea. Is it always and everywhere against the will of the Spirit for heretics to be consumed by fire? Jesus didn’t think so. I would assume he knew something more about the will of the Spirit than you do.

By the way, and this is the crucial point. There is nothing in the condemnation 33 that endorses, in a positive way, all or any specific burnings of heretics. It doesn’t say anything like “it was correct for Heretic A or Heretic B to be burned.” It simply states that it is WRONG to assume or make the claim that “…heretics be burned is AGAINST the will of the Spirit.”

That does not amount to an endorsement of any human engagement in the burning of heretics, it merely states that it is wrong for any human to make claims about or to speak for what the Spirit does or does not will with regard to the treatment of heretics.

That is the logical entailment of the condemnation, not what you suppose derives from it.
Martin Luther was teaching that the burning of heretics was wrong and against the will of God. The Bull condemned this and other teachings of his as errors against Catholic truth. .
 
“Today Catholic scholars are among Luther’s greatest apologists, extolling him as a devout Reformer who tried to better the church in an age of corruption and greed. Catholic historians are calling him “one of the greatest witnesses to the Christian faith” and “our brother in Christ.” Luther’s “A Mighty Fortress Is Our God” is sung in Catholic churches. Even Pope John Paul II has acknowledged “the profound religiousness of Luther.””
ministrymagazine.org/archive/1987/10/the-reprieve-of-martin-luther
Right, and all Catholics are going to become Lutherans as soon as they can.

But you forgot to note that Luther’s cause for sainthood has yet to be recognized.

Must be an oversight of the present pope? :rolleyes:

By the way, Tom, what is your “other”? Lutheran, by any chance? 😉
 
Right, and all Catholics are going to become Lutherans as soon as they can.

But you forgot to note that Luther’s cause for sainthood has yet to be recognized.

Must be an oversight of the present pope? :rolleyes:

By the way, Tom, what is your “other”? Lutheran, by any chance? 😉
Roman Catholic bishops are praising Martin Luther. Please see: “GERMAN CATHOLIC BISHOPS PRAISE ARCH-HERETIC MARTIN LUTHER”
“The Catholic bishops of Germany are praising Martin Luther, calling him a “Gospel witness and teacher of the Faith.””
churchmilitant.com/news/article/german-catholic-bishops-praise-arch-heretic-martin-luther
 
Since there is no answer to the question, back to the topic.
It seems to me the atheist’s best argument is non-argument.
It stands for nothing and so imagines itself above criticism.

Meanwhile Christianity stands for something, specifically, and so is open to critical thought and progress, as well as calumny and prejudice. There is something substantial about Christianity which can lead to greater understanding, and also to pointless attacks.

Atheism, at least as represented by posters here, has nothing specific to offer in the way of ethics or morals, or objective truths. It’s all very safe and seemingly unassailable.

This thread is evidence of that very thing.
 
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