"The Baha'i Faith"

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You do realize that Baha’is that were formerly Catholics can recite the rosary with no conflict, right?

One Baha’i wrote a short blog about it.
We Baha’is do believe in intercessory prayer, that is you can turn to someone who is say in the spiritual world and no longer on this earthly plane for intercession… but it should be understood what you are doing and not praying say directly to them. We also believe prayers and good deeds can improve the situation for people on the other side…and they can pray for us:

It is even possible that the condition of those who have died in sin and unbelief may become changed; that is to say, they may become the object of pardon through the bounty of God, not through His justice; for bounty is giving without desert, and justice is giving what is deserved. As we have the power to pray for these souls here, so likewise we shall possess the same power in the other world, which is the Kingdom of God. … Therefore in that world also they can make progress. As here they can receive light by their supplications, there also they can plead for forgiveness, and receive light through entreaties and supplications. ~ 'Abdul-Baha

*"Those who have ascended have different attributes from those who are still on earth, yet there is no real separation. *
“In prayer there is a mingling of station, a mingling of condition. Pray for them as they pray for you!” – Abdu’l-Baha in London, p. 97.

About the rosary I was going to say that Baha’is today do use prayer beads and can use them to recite the Name of God ninety five times a day. We can also use our hands and fingers as a kind of prayer beads to recite what we call the Greatest Name.

Abdul-Baha also cites the Qur’an:

In the Qur’án we read that Muhammad spoke to his followers, saying:

‘Why do you not believe in Christ, and in the Gospel? Why will you not accept Moses and the Prophets, for surely the Bible is the Book of God? In truth, Moses was a sublime Prophet, and Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit. He came to the world through the Power of God, born of the Holy Spirit and of the blessed Virgin Mary. Mary, His mother, was a saint from Heaven. She passed her days in the Temple at prayer and food was sent to her from above. Her father, Zacharias, came to her and asked her from whence the food came, and Mary made answer, “From on high.” Surely God made Mary to be exalted above all other women.’


(Abdu’l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 47)

There is no harm in any affliction which befalleth thee in the love of El-Baha, for this affliction is a gem which glistens and shines on the crown of guidance which adorns thy head among the maid-servants. Remember the hardships of the disciples, and what Mary, the Virgin; Mary, the Magdalene; and Mary, the mother of Jesus, bore in the path of God; especially Barbara, until she was martyred in the love of Christ; and she being attracted unto the Kingdom of God, her spirit soared unto the summits of holiness in the paradise of eternal life, in the place of Meeting.

(Abdu’l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu’l-Baha v2, p. 261)
 
I think the same way Christianity (emphasis on spirituality) broke away from Judaism (emphasis on laws and rituals) , Bahai (spirituality) broke away from Islam (laws and rituals)…
This is very accurate I think … thanks Hadi for your post. I would say that historically there are similarities in how Christainity emerged from Judaism and the Bhaa’i Faith emerged from Islam… a lot of parallels!
 
As a Muslim, do you see Baha’i as a heresy?
The Quran was sent to correct not to change…correct the belief in trinity or the disbelief in the resurrection and to guide people from worshiping idols to worshiping the one God…

This is the main issue in Islam…other than that,considered minors…

now , if the Bahai belief is similar to NOI (God incarnated himself into a human)…then this is Not Islam…

I’ll look more into thier belifs and then decide if they are a heresy or not…
 
The Quran was sent to correct not to change…correct the belief in trinity or the disbelief in the resurrection and to guide people from worshiping idols to worshiping the one God…

This is the main issue in Islam…other than that,considered minors…

now , if the Bahai belief is similar to NOI (God incarnated himself into a human)…then this is Not Islam…

I’ll look more into thier belifs and then decide if they are a heresy or not…
Hadi,

Baha’is don’t believe “God incarnated Himself as a human”. I think we covered this above in some posts in the past few days… We do belieev in what we call the Manifestation of God in His Prophets… so if you were alive at the time of Jesus you would turn to Him because the Mirror of Jesus perfectly relfected the attributes of God without distortion and this was innately so… that is, Jesus didn’t learn this and He didn’t have to polish the mirror of His heart as the rest of us must do… It was innate.

We believe the same of Prophet Muhammad that He was a Manifestation of God and so on…
 
Those attributes of God such as knowledge, love, beauty, mercy and justice ARE perfectly incarnated in the Promised Ones. Take justice for example:

Witness the habitation in which He, Who is the incarnation of justice, hath been forced to dwell. Open your eyes, and, beholding His plight, meditate diligently upon that which your hands have wrought, that haply ye may not be deprived of the light of His Divine utterance, nor remain bereft of your share of the ocean of His knowledge. (Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 98)
**Say: Because He bore injustice, justice hath appeared on earth, and because He accepted abasement, the majesty of God hath shone forth amidst mankind. **(Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 76)
We are, in truth, the One to judge. He it is Who is the manifestation of “God doeth whatsoever He pleaseth”, and abideth upon the throne of “He ordaineth whatsoever He chooseth”. (Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, #157, p. 76)
**Verily I am the One Who exhorteth with justice. Unto this beareth witness He from Whose Pen rivers of mercy have flowed and from Whose utterance fountains of living waters have streamed forth unto all created things. Immeasurably exalted is this boundless grace; immensely blessed is this resplendent favour. **(Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 78)
 
When the sinner findeth himself wholly detached and freed from all save God, he should beg forgiveness and pardon from Him. Confession of sins and transgressions before human beings is not permissible, as it hath never been nor will ever be conducive to divine forgiveness. Moreover such confession before people results in one’s humiliation and abasement, and God – exalted be His glory – wisheth not the humiliation of His servants. Verily He is the Compassionate, the Merciful. The sinner should, between himself and God, implore mercy from the Ocean of mercy, beg forgiveness from the Heaven of generosity and say:
O God, my God! I implore Thee by the blood of Thy true lovers who were so enraptured by Thy sweet utterance that they hastened unto the Pinnacle of Glory, the site of the most glorious martyrdom, and I beseech Thee by the mysteries which lie enshrined in Thy knowledge and by the pearls that are treasured in the ocean of Thy bounty to grant forgiveness unto me and unto my father and my mother. Of those who show forth mercy, Thou art in truth the Most Merciful. No God is there but Thee, the Ever-Forgiving, the All-Bountiful.
O Lord! Thou seest this essence of sinfulness turning unto the ocean of Thy favour and this feeble one seeking the kingdom of Thy divine power and this poor creature inclining himself towards the day-star of Thy wealth. By Thy mercy and Thy grace, disappoint him not, O Lord, nor debar him from the revelations of Thy bounty in Thy days, nor cast him away from Thy door which Thou hast opened wide to all that dwell in Thy heaven and on Thine earth.
Alas! Alas! My sins have prevented me from approaching the Court of Thy holiness and my trespasses have caused me to stray far from the Tabernacle of Thy majesty. I have committed that which Thou didst forbid me to do and have put away what Thou didst order me to observe.
I pray Thee by Him Who is the sovereign Lord of Names to write down for me with the Pen of Thy bounty that which will enable me to draw nigh unto Thee and will purge me from my trespasses which have intervened between me and Thy forgiveness and Thy pardon. Verily, Thou art the Potent, the Bountiful. No God is there but Thee, the Mighty, the Gracious.
(Bishárát “Glad-Tidings”, Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 24)
 
**Say: O concourse of monks! Seclude not yourselves in your churches and cloisters. Come ye out of them by My leave, and busy, then, yourselves with what will profit you and others. Thus commandeth you He Who is the Lord of the Day of Reckoning. *Seclude yourselves in the stronghold of My love. This, truly, is the seclusion that befitteth you, could ye but know it. He that secludeth himself in his house is indeed as one dead. It behoveth man to show forth that which will benefit mankind. He that bringeth forth no fruit is fit for the fire. Thus admonisheth you your Lord; He, verily, is the Mighty, the Bountiful. Enter ye into wedlock, that after you another may arise in your stead. We, verily, have forbidden you lechery, and not that which is conducive to fidelity. Have ye clung unto the promptings of your nature, and cast behind your backs the statutes of God? Fear ye God, and be not of the foolish. But for man, who, on My earth, would remember Me, and how could My attributes and My names be revealed?
Reflect, and be not of them that have shut themselves out as by a veil from Him, and were of those that are fast asleep. He that married not
could find no place wherein to abide, nor where to lay His head, by reason of what the hands of the treacherous had wrought. His holiness consisted not in the things ye have believed and imagined, but rather in the things which belong unto Us. Ask, that ye may be made aware of His station which hath been exalted above the vain imaginings of all the peoples of the earth. Blessed are they that understand. (Bahá’u’lláh, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 70)
  • Since the Lawgiver never married, neither would He have committed adultery with Mary Magdalene, as is believed by some people. Christ successfully put all temptations behind Him.]
 
**The beginnings of European civilization date from the seventh century of the Muslim era. The particulars were these: toward the end of the fifth century of the hegira, the Pope or Head of Christendom set up a great hue and cry over the fact that places sacred to the Christians, such as Jerusalem, Bethlehem and Nazareth, had fallen under Muslim rule, and he stirred up the kings and the commoners of Europe to undertake what he considered a holy war. His impassioned outcry waxed so loud that all the countries of Europe responded… **(Abdu’l-Baha, The Secret of Divine Civilization, p. 90)

Army after army raised in Europe poured its fanatical legions into the East. The kings of European nations personally led these Crusades, killing and shedding the blood of the Orientals. During this period of two hundred years the East and West were in a state of violence and commotion. Sometimes the crusaders were successful, killing, pillaging and taking captive the Muslim people; sometimes the Muslims were victorious, inflicting bloodshed, death and ruin in turn upon the invaders. So they continued for two centuries, alternately fighting with fury and relaxing from weakness, until the European religionists withdrew from the East, leaving ashes of desolation behind them and finding their own nations in a condition of turbulence and upheaval. **Hundreds of thousands of human beings were killed and untold wealth wasted in this fruitless religious warfare. **How many fathers mourned the loss of their sons! How many mothers and wives lamented the absence of their dear ones! Yet this was only one of the “holy” wars. Consider and reflect.
Religious wars have been many. Nine hundred thousand martyrs to the Protestant cause was the record of conflict and difference between that sect of Christians and the Catholics. Consult history and confirm this. (‘Abdu’l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 265)
**As Christians believe in Moses, so the Jews should believe in Jesus. As the Muhammadans believe in Christ and Moses, so likewise the Jews and the Christians should believe in Muhammad. Then all disputes would disappear, all then would be united. Bahá’u’lláh came for this purpose. He has made the three religions one. **~‘Abdu’l-Bahá in London, p. 43
 
The Quran was sent to correct not to change…correct the belief in trinity or the disbelief in the resurrection and to guide people from worshiping idols to worshiping the one God…

This is the main issue in Islam…other than that,considered minors…

now , if the Bahai belief is similar to NOI (God incarnated himself into a human)…then this is Not Islam…

I’ll look more into thier belifs and then decide if they are a heresy or not…
The Quran was sent to correct not to change…correct the belief in trinity or the disbelief in the resurrection and to guide people from worshiping idols to worshiping the one God…

**Hadi, I had to repeat your good wods in golden letters. Quran is a Tadhkirah, i.e. a reminder. It is something which was coming from the past and people had forgotten those things. So Quran is reminding the same old lessons.

That means Quran was sent to correct, not to change…

Thanks for your presentation.**
 
Hadi,

Baha’is don’t believe “God incarnated Himself as a human”. I think we covered this above in some posts in the past few days… We do belieev in what we call the Manifestation of God in His Prophets… so if you were alive at the time of Jesus you would turn to Him because the Mirror of Jesus perfectly relfected the attributes of God without distortion and this was innately so… that is, Jesus didn’t learn this and He didn’t have to polish the mirror of His heart as the rest of us must do… It was innate.

We believe the same of Prophet Muhammad that He was a Manifestation of God and so on…
** arthra, we understand that God reveals Himself through His prophets. But none of the prophets claimed that they were gods. It appears that bahaullah and his followers are believing in Bahaullah as God. So giving example of the Sun and the mirror goes beyond the permitted levels into paganism (Shirk).

Your system is like present day christianity, perhaps even more than that. It would be necessary to show something from Bahaullah that he was not God. Bahaullah should declare that he is not God, in clear words. Please show.

You believe the same of Prophet Muhammad that He was a Manifestation of God. But did you ever find any teaching of Muhammad that he was God? Did the Muslims ever in the past 1400 years ever believe that Muhammad was God? Please reply.

**
 
PLANTEN: It appears that bahaullah and his followers are believing in Bahaullah as God.

We talked about this. You said you understood the analogy of the Mirror, but you keep bringing it up. All the Prophets said Their words were God’s WORD. It is in that sense that we believe obeying Baha’u’llah was obeying God. Obey the Book for the age you live in.

Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God,” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world. Thus, He hath revealed: “Those shafts were God’s, not Thine.” And also He saith: “In truth, they who plighted fealty unto Thee, really plighted that fealty unto God.” And were any of them to voice the utterance, **“I am the Messenger of God,” **He, also, speaketh the truth, the indubitable truth. Even as He saith: “Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but He is the Messenger of God.” Viewed in this light, they are all but Messengers of that ideal King, that unchangeable Essence. And were they all to proclaim, “I am the Seal of the Prophets,” they, verily, utter but the truth, beyond the faintest shadow of doubt. For they are all but one person, one soul, one spirit, one being, one revelation. They are all the manifestation of the “Beginning” and the “End,” the “First” and the “Last,” the “Seen” and the “Hidden” – all of which pertain to Him Who is the Innermost Spirit of Spirits and Eternal Essence of Essences. And were they to say, “We are the Servants of God,” this also is a manifest and indisputable fact. For they have been made manifest in the uttermost state of servitude, a servitude the like of which no man can possibly attain.(Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 54)
 
Matthew 18:21 **Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? **18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
70 X 7 = 490. This is a prophecy about Forgiveness, as well as a mandate to forgive others. The Second Temple was constructed in 457 BCE, by the decrees of the kings of Persia, who had liberated the Jews from Babylon. 490 – 457 = 33, the age of Jesus, when He was crucified, or, as Daniel puts it:
9:24 Seventy weeks (490 “days” or years) are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

‘Abdu’l-Bahá Proves the Crucifixion of Christ from Daniel’s Prophecy

When you add thirty-three to four hundred and fifty-seven, the result is four hundred and ninety, which is the time announced by Daniel for the manifestation of Christ. But in the twenty-fifth verse of the ninth chapter of the Book of Daniel this is expressed in another manner, as seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; and apparently this differs from the first saying. Many have remained perplexed at these differences, trying to reconcile these two statements. How can seventy weeks be right in one place, and sixty-two weeks and seven weeks in another? These two sayings do not accord. But Daniel mentions two dates. One of these dates begins with the command of Artaxerxes to Ezra to rebuild Jerusalem: this is the seventy weeks which came to an end with the ascension of Christ, when by His martyrdom the sacrifice and oblation ceased.
The second period, which is found in the twenty-sixth verse, means that after the termination of the rebuilding of Jerusalem until the ascension of Christ, there will be sixty-two weeks: the seven weeks are the duration of the rebuilding of Jerusalem, which took forty-nine years. When you add these seven weeks to the sixty-two weeks, it makes sixty-nine weeks, and in the last week (69-70) the ascension of Christ took place. These seventy weeks are thus completed, and there is no contradiction.
(‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, p. 40)
 
I am going to respond to this topic with an unusual perspective. I am a former Baha’i, and indeed I was a Baha’i for 30 years. I was a pioneer (missionary), I served as an Auxiliary Board Member for a while (not analogous to any Christian position), and as a member of the Local Spiritual Assembly of my town. The Local Spiritual Assembly is similar to a church board in Protestant and Episcopal churches, though it is organized within legal units like cities or counties.

The Baha’i Faith is not a cult, at least not one that grips its believers and isolates them. I left the faith on good terms, and I remain friendly with may Baha’is.

I don’t want to answer all that I have read here, but I will make some observations. It is clear to me that while the Baha’i Faith mentions Buddhism and Hinduism, the references are oblique and passing. Both religions are counted among the religions of the past that are precursors to the Baha’i Faith, but it has been left to later scholars and pseudo scholars to reconcile obvious problems such as Buddhism’s lack of a deity, and Hinduism’s many deities.

But the Baha’i Faith, to me, is a Christianized Islam. It is formally more like Islam, having obligatory prayers (one per day, not five), fasting from sunrise to sunset, pilgrimage, and monetary contributions as tenants. The great difference with Islam is in the position of the Prophet or “Manifestation of God”. It is quite impossible to imagine a Muslim praying to Muhammad. It simply is not done, and is a sin. Baha’is, however do sometimes, make prayers to Baha’u’llah, the founder of the Baha’i faith. This is not obligatory, but it is important to recognize that in the Baha’i faith, the Prophet is central to devotion, and is considered to be as much as one can know of God. Thus Baha’is see Baha’u’llah in a way that is closer to the Christian view of Christ than to the Muslim view of Muhammad.

Also, there are moving “tablets of Visitation” that are addressed to Baha’u’llah. His sufferings over 40 years are mentioned in these tablets.

Baha’u’llah’s writings also draw strongly on Sufi imagery, but it is a mistake to confuse the Baha’i faith with Sufism. It is clear from the writings of Baha’u’llah that the believer cannot by private exertions attain greater understanding of the divine mysteries. One must go through the teachings and prayers to the Prophet. In this respect, the Baha’i Faith is an orthodox monotheistic religion.

The Baha’i Faith has no clergy and no sacraments, but is organized with a clear hierarchy that is elegant in its simplicity. There are local spiritual assemblies, national spiritual assemblies, and at the international level, there is the Universal House of Justice. The Universal House of Justice is considered infallible in all its actions, not just in “ex cathedra” pronouncements. The text that announces this infallibility dates from 1873, three years, I believe, after the proclamation of Papal infallibility.

In areas of personal morality, the Baha’i Faith is every bit as stringent as any other monotheistic religion. Pre-marital sex, companionate marriage and homosexuality are all forbidden. In fact, to marry, one needs the permission of all living biological parents.

It disapproves of abortion. However, the Baha’i Faith does not involve itself in political matters, so it does not take positions in the current abortion debate in the United States. In practice this makes Baha’is into pro-choice advocates, in that they personally disapprove of abortion, but are unwilling to take a stand politically. Individual Baha’is may indeed by pro-Life, but they are stepping outside the normal activity for Baha’is. I have heard an Iranian Baha’i who was very devoted tell me about a family member who elected an abortion due to probable birth defects. I have known others who heroically carried pregnancies to term.

The Baha’i Faith is not growing rapidly. There are places in the world where it has experienced significant growth, but in reality, the number of really informed, committed believers is quite low. Many towns in the US have less than 20 believers, and usually only a third of those are active. The statistics given often are derived from Baha’i statistics and are often quoted without evaluation. Just as there are perhaps a billion Catholics, not all of them are active or even informed about their nominal faith. But with the supposed 6.5 million Baha’is, it has been in stuck mode for a long time.

Many Christians have become Baha’is. The early US community was made up primarily of New England protestants and some Episcopalians, Unitarians, and Jews. I have known of at least two Catholic priests who have become Baha’is, several nuns, and a number of Catholic laypersons. The really quite beautiful translation of the Baha’i writings into English were made with the assistance of an Anglican (Church of Ireland) priest and archdeacon who later became a Baha’i.

One funny thing for me is that I became a believer in the Virgin Birth as a Baha’i, and seemed to have no problem carrying that belief back to Christianity when I returned. I remember the Quranic verse: “Qaalat kun fa yakun”, “He (God) says to a thing ‘be’ and it is”.

As to the Primacy of Peter mentioned by someone above, yes, there is a statement that the true leader of the Christian world was the Pope. However, in context this is not quite the endorsement you may think it is. Since the coming of Islam, spiritual authority in the world shifted to the Imamate of Twelver Shi’ism. So the Pope stopped having any real authority from the point that Muhammad began his preaching. From Muhammad it passed to his nephew, 'Ali, and down through the other eleven imams, until the 12th imam disappeared in the year 260 AH. From that point forward until the proclamation of the Bab (Baha’u’llah’s John the Baptist, roughly) in 1844, there was no spiritual guide.

Just as a personal note, I returned to Christianity partly because of the perceived relative amount of “wiggle room” on the subject of homosexuality that Christianity offered. I remember telling Roman Catholic Bishop John Cummins, now emeritus of Oakland, this. He smiled serenely. I am now back in my beloved Episcopal Church, with a more realistic view of the issues regarding homosexuality. I am not gay, but I remain pained by the issues confronting gays in society. The Baha’i Faith has rigid teachings that offer no wiggle room whatsoever. 🤷
 
What a wonderful description of the Faith of God in the world! You even mentioned that the authority of a new Revelation encompasses the previous ones, which would include Hinduism and Buddhism. They have been trumped by monotheism. Not many gods, not an absence of god, but one supreme God, who knows about every thing better than we do.
I recommend reading the last page of the Kitab-i-Iqan. Either He is the Divine Physician or He is not. Do we presume to know better than Him about anything?
And this period of sluggish growth can be completely reversed when those ‘drowning’ see the Ark and realize that continuing to ignore the prescription will exacerbate the diseases.
Sincerely, DavidMark
 
** It is a good thing that Baha’is do not claim that they are Muslims. The field is open. Islam states " There is not to be any compulsion in the matters of (any) religion." Al-Quran 2:256.**
So the door is open. Any person can chose any faith. That is as per Islam. The Baha’is are telling, they number about 6.5 million. There are Ahmadis who claim to be Muslims, and they preach Islam world wide, (even though they are not considered Muslims by the mainline Muslim community), they claim a very high number, more than 100 million in the world now. Only last year they bagged about 416,000 converts from 111 countries. The year before last, they collected about 350,000 converts to the faith of Ahmadiah in one year.

The christians are working and converting people to Catholicism and Protestant faith (i.e. to christianity.). Every one is free to propagate peacefully, like the Baha’is are doing here on this forum, They may get some converts. Who knows. We wish them and all others well in their work to propagate the Truth.
 
Dear Mateo, I want to thank you for your carefully worded description and sincerity.
  1. But the Authority issue will not be solved as you hope. A new direction has begun for the Baha’i community in which a new law, a new heaven and a new earth will develop. By this I mean that, whether the Popes recognize it or not, new Scripture has been revealed, containing new laws, even more “catholic” institutions, as well as rewards and punishments which will be gradually applied, within the Baha’i Community, which will grow and grow over the coming centuries. If you think of religions as having their own heaven, which is cleft by the appearance of the new one, and new cultures like new earths, which supercede each other, it becomes evident that, if the martyrdom of thousands could not stop the spread of the Baha’i Faith, attempts by devoted Catholics to regather people under the Papacy will have meager results. Still, Baha’is pray for all, including gentle Popes that get shot, and fiendish mullahs who cling to power with horrible avidity.
  2. Sealed numerical prophecies, like dreams and visions, can only be interpreted fully by the Manifestations of God. “Whosoever desireth, let him turn aside from this counsel and whosoever desireth let him choose the path to his Lord” Baha’u’llah said. Maybe this is why Jack seemed adamant. For instance, when Jesus appeared in the synagogue and read from Isaiah, and said ‘It is fulfilled this day’ He should know. His was the pre-existent authority of ‘Before Abraham I am’. Only now through the explanations of 'Abdu’l-Baha do we understand that the 3.5 “times” equal the 42 “months” which equal the 1260 “days” which are half of the 2520 “days” which are the Seven Times of the Gentiles, and expired in 1844 CE/1260 AH. Likewise eyes of fire, brass feet and becoming a pillar in the Temple.
  3. It is excellent advice to study the Writings of Baha’u’llah if you want to understand Baha’u’llah’s Writings! Once you immerse yourself in them, you come face to face with a certainty, the like of which cannot be pretended by charlatans. So, either He was a liar, and lunatic or the Lord. Those proofs Christ gave for determination are adequate:
    a) Does He testify to Christ? b)You SHALL know them by their fruits
    c) Do His prophecies come true? Apply these to Baha’u’llah. “Test the Spirits” .
Dear David,

You are a believer, great for you. You most likely believed in the NT for a time. You obviously do not now.

Revelations or the Apocalypse, with all its apocalyptic metaphors, speak of the ‘Second Coming of the Christ’ as an ‘Incredibly Show-Stopping Event’ casting Satan and all his evil cronies into the ‘firey lake’ and placing a Heavenly Reign in this world after the Cataclysmic events of God’s wrath takes place.

Since you appear to believe in the ‘Second Coming of the Christ’, how do you explain the ‘Coming of your Christ’. Do you only accept the NT, if at all, till it differs with your belief of New Revelation? Was your Christ prophesied about in any other manner than a form of numerology in the Book of Daniel.

As Mateo mentioned, Mateo is lacking ‘big time’ in the area of Catholic apologetics. Mateo should be with another, hopefully more schooled, Catholic when speaking with someone who knows how to defend your Bahai faith. Jesus sent all messengers out in parties of two to prevent the visited from placing doubt in a less-strong ‘defender of the faith that Jesus taught’, which is not what your faith is about.

You have your beliefs. It begins not as the Christian bible states. So, your faith is a faith of its own origin for whatever reason. Just a question. How many miraculous healings did your founder do while on this earth, since you bring up the point about being able to tell my folowers by their fruits.

My Catholic faith is based on one absolute, Humility. Faith, in and of itself, is believing without seeing for all Christians since Christ rose to Heaven. Naturally anyone who originates a faith would have to give credit to earlier prophets. If one doesn’t, one’s new faith can’t get off the ground just as your faith had to do. Your answer is: ‘all those guys were good, but our guy is better’. I beg to differ.

Respectfully,

jpaul1953
 
I pray this email finds you all in good health.

I was wondering if anyone has had any encounters with a non-catholic religion called the “Baha’i Faith”? I am currently a student at a university and have encountered and dialogued with many different types of religions. This one in particular has given me a little more of a headache and is tougher to break down due to my lack of biblical and doctrinal knowledge within the Catholic Chruch. They claim to have 6.5 million members and say they have been growing fast. I was just wondering if anyone else has had encounters with this “Baha’i Faith” and if so how has it gone?

Paz de Christo,

Mateo
Dear Mateo,

You need not speak to Jack by yourself. You are arm wrestling with a stronger opponent. If you want to believe that Jesus is just one of the Prophets or has spiritually returned in the body of the Bahai founder than continue with your conversations, because he will convert you before you will ever convert him. Jack walked away from Christianity. Why would he believe anything you have to say. He’s got nothing to lose, but you do. He is pulling you away with some claim to fame in a couple of lines out of the Book of Daniel, which I am sure you have never read before since you said you are lacking in biblical understanding ( Daniel, Ezekiel, and Revelation, are all written in an Apocalytic style which speaks metaphorically to keep it esoteric for personal safety and profound for affect) which is okay when speaking to Catholics about our faith. Jack didn’t know his Christian faith because if he did he would still be one.

The Book of Revelations speaks of the Second Coming as something Cataclysmic. The Bahai faith origins don’t meet the standard Cataclysmic Second Coming of the Christ that we are taught to expect. Remember Jesus performed uncountable amounts of miracles for the good. Jesus will be known by his fruits too as the Bahai’ member mentioned about ‘you will know my followers by their fruits’. Please remember this: many Protestants are vehemently anti-Catholic, but they are Christians. They know not what they hate!
The Bahai faith speaks of ‘NEW REVELATIONS’. Of couse it would. How else can they even think about changing peoples’ hearts into believing this 150 year old religion.

Chritianity is humility. I don’t feel any humility when speaking to people who again are beginning their own faith, not just a denomination, because what’s out there 2000-years after Christ is still not good enough. Nothing is ever good enough for them because humility is not a special place to them. It’s at the bottom of the barrel and they want to be on top, be special. with a "We’re the special few " attitude. I know you might think this paragraph to be a bit harsh and extreme, but I do wish for you to see the extreme differences.

The Catholic Church has accepted and dealt with many issues of Godlessness, but the Godlessness does not come from the Church. It comes from the egos of some of the Church’s worst stewards. Ego is Godlessness. Humility is Godfull. Popes are not proud. They have heavy hearts over their personal responsibility given to them as the temporary Vicars.

I know you believe in Jesus. Just because some Catholics left the Church for Bahai doesn’t give the Bahai faith any credence. You, being a faithful Catholic, is not enough to protect you from the intellectual stormtroopers views of a non-Christian faith.

The Bahai faith, regardless of what they say to you, believes that they are the chosen ones, the elite of believers. Their belief system ties in with itself a little of every faith out there from the beginning of time to bait the world, if I might say, into believing a non-biblical faith. Buddha is a prophet. Since when.

I am sorry if I appear too strong. I’m 55-years old and have dealt with alot of reasons to defend my faith and fellow Catholics.

Take care.

jpaul1953
 
One of the difficult things we face when dealing with fora such as this, is the insistent claim of truth on the part of disputants. Whether you are Catholic (as jpaul1953) or Baha’i (as DavidMark), we frankly get nowhere by making claims about one religion or another posessing absolute truth. I am sure that scholarly authorities of both religions recognize that peppering our speech with constant assertions that this or that religion is the ‘Faith of God" is a waste of time and an impediment to dialogue. Sayin’ it’s so don’t make it so!
I learned long ago that two people, sincere in their different faiths, can waste a great deal of time and get absolutely nowhere.

Similarly, the springing of proof texts from the Bible to show either that the Baha’i Faith is true, or that it is false, only convinces the side that is pulling up these texts. Catholics should especially be wary of this. Too often, Protestants argue against the Catholic Church based on isolated verses from the Bible. The Bible has been cited as the authority for any number of attrocities. Failure to read it as whole ought to be raised to the level of venial sin.

To some points raised in response to my first posting by DavidMark: I never, ever, heard a Baha’i author or other authority suggest that the non-deism of Buddhism or the polytheism of Hinduism were way stations on the road to monotheism. That frankly is a misunderstanding of the Baha’i position. The Baha’i position is that all the religions of the past taught the same message, but the message was tailored to the time, place, and capacity of the hearers. Thus, Abraham’s message was less detailed than that of Moses, etc. There have been interesting, non-scholarly attempts to establish that Buddha was a believer in God. Two such works, written by Jamshid Fozdar, I tossed long before leaving the Baha’i Faith, as they were so obviously unscholarly (attempting to relate the Indian word Amitabha to the Arabic word abha, for example)

To the conversation between Platen and arthra, the Baha’i position is that the Manifestations of God (including Jesus) were like mirrors, in which we can see the sun, but not the sun itself. Oddly, there is a book by Hasan Balyuzi, a hand of the cause, called simply “Baha’u’llah”, which is subtitled “the Word made Flesh”. I am not sure that Balyuzi understood the depth of meaning that phrase carries. Despite this curious titling, there is nothing in Baha’i theology that suggests an incarnation or virgin birth. It is curious that the virginity of Mary, and the Virgin Birth of Jesus is believed, but without any need for other Manifestations to be born in this way.

Finally, a word to DavidMark. Long cuts and pastes don’t advance your cause. Like you, I once believed in the power of the “creative word”, and the power of the words of Baha’u’llah held particular sway over me. It just doesn’t communicate to others.

As to religions posessing the whole truth, I remain in the warm spirituality of the Episcopal Church and the Anglican Communion. I am confident in our Lord and Savior, and in the sacraments. We don’t posess the whole truth (at least we don’t as far as we know). You Catholics and Baha’is could take a cue, but you won’t.
 
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