"The Baha'i Faith"

[DavidHouse]

The above is quite contrary to the Muslims beliefs. Muslim do not believe that Jesus was God or he created anything. Muslims believe that Jesus was himself created, So Baha’is are towing the christian faith faithfully.

The question of identity, as in the Identity of Christ or of Bahá’u’lláh, is one example of the profound issues towards which I pointed in my first post. I was saying, in essence that answers to these issues, in many important ways, transcend the cage of words, and it seems to me they can only be fully understood in the sacred language of our soul. But with regard to the implication and your previous statement that Christ is God, in fact, the Bible and Christ Himself offer a number of passages that on their face make clear that many distinctions can be drawn between Christ and God. One of the most well known is Mark 13:32:

“But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.”

Obviously if God and Christ were the same, then the Son Who is the Father would know what the Father knows. If memory serves, there are perhaps two dozen similar passages in the Gospels which draw similar distinctions between the powers, conditions, knowledge and identity of God and those of Christ. For example, to Whom was Christ speaking when He asked that the cup of suffering be taken from Him? (Matthew 26:39: “…O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.”) How could He be saying that it did not matter what He wanted (“not as I will”), but only what He wanted (“but as thou wilt”)? If Christ was identical with God, then how could He say, to those hearing and seeing Him as He spoke (John 1:18): “No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”?

I would be interested in hearing your interpretation of the above Scripture passages.

Mind you, I’m not trying to argue with you about this issue. What is also clear is that when we know Christ, we know God, and there is no human capacity (in my opinion) which can distinguish between them. We do not have the equipment, if you like, to be able to tell the difference. From this perspective, it is perfectly correct to say that Christ is God, and other passages in Scripture appear to me to make this point (John 14:7):

If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

As regards your last point, about Bahá’ís “towing the [C]hristian [F]aith faithfully”, if I understand correctly, then certainly I hope we are.

You say
DavidHouse;5586670:

every atom which He (meaning Jesus) encountered, He knew, for He had created it.

Again same problem. You believe that Jesus created everything. Since Bahaullah is also God and Bahaullah is also Jesus, then Bahaullah must have created himself and everything.

I’m afraid I don’t understand your point. The same odd logic would apply regardless of what name we give the Creator. Did God create everything, therefore Christ and Himself? Did Christ create God, in your view?

The underlying problem is, in fact, the issue of names. Consider the “name” we give the sun. Today the sun is called “Wednesday” (for the sake of illustration). Tomorrow it will be called “Thursday”. It has a different dawning point, different characteristics in many regards-- certainly a different name-- but it is one sun. In the same way, as Micah 5:2 makes clear, that brilliant Sun Who guides mankind has come before and will come again:

But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. (emphasis added)

In other words, if I say that Christ is the Word, and the Word of God created everything-- and if in addition I affirm the truth that Bahá’u’lláh has come, and that He is the One spoken of in Revelation 3:12, Christ in His new Name-- then this clearly is not illogical. You may consider that I am incorrect, I grant you, but given that the Sun of yesterday is the same as the Sun of today, and this is my view of the relationship between Christ and Bahá’u’lláh, there is no logical contradiction.

Thanks for responding. Be well.

d.

 

[DavidHouse]

David House/David Mark/Siddhartha/arthra:

Thanks for taking the time to explain the Baha’i position. I appreciate your sincerity, your faith and devotion to your cause. …]

And with that, I bid you all a kind farewell. God bless.

With the exception (and thank you) that you put my name in your list of respondents, you did not, in fact, respond to me, but rather addressed points which were made by others than I.

For example, you did not address any of the questions I posited in my second post about the physical body of Christ, nor did you reply to anything I said in my first post about the clear Scriptural inference that the resurrection refers (even if not in whole, then assuredly in part) to the fact that the believers which made up the body of Christ, His church, lost their faith when He was crucified.

Thus while I appreciate your courtesy, and I hope I return it, please allow me to point out that we have not had a conversation, and I would think that most people would agree that merely adding my name to a post does not constitute a reply.

Even so, if you prefer to retire from the field and not engage in this discussion, then as you wish. Perhaps some other time. Be well.

d.

 

[yankee_doodle]

One of these days watch the Universe series on the History Channel to understand how chaotic and destructive the universe really is. If there is a god and cadre of celestial angels they’ve somehow managed to elude telescopes that can see tens of millions of light years into space (in every direction). If there is something like a being who created this universe its not the god depicted in your bible, how can it be?

If some invisible force put all this into motion it’s no longer controlling anything because we know the physical cause of nearly every action in the universe. We know why a star is propelled from its orbit, whereas the ancients might have said it was the hand of god or Zeus that hurled the star through outer space.

I mean … get real?

 

[DavidMark]

To my atheist friend,
Who needs to get Real? You sound the like the cosmonaut who said he saw no god out his portal. Don’t look for God with physical eyes, and don’t trust everything the physical eye perceives. The chaos we see is all part of the Cosmos. As great a scientist as Sagan was, he did not deny the possibility of a Being beyond our comprehension, so keep your heart and mind open.
Were there no Being greater than us, unchangeable and omniscient, for what purpose was human life instilled with the faculty of faith? And what do you have faith in that could be greater than a supreme Being that desires (not needs) to be be known and loved by its creatures?

 

[DavidMark]

One of the wonderful things Bahá’u’llád did on the first day of the Declaration of His Mission, in 1863, was to abrogate military jíhad. This seems to have been a first. Even tho Jesus taught love and peace, people continued to “live by the sword” and the Crusades were called up by a Pope, to deliver children, other Christians and Muslims to a period of horror for two centuries. I have seen deprecating remarks about the Babí defensive wars, when defensive war itself was defended by Christians and Muslims!

Bahá’u’lláh continued to elaborate on how a global security force should operate, and made this eloquent statement near the end of His 40 year Mission:
O peoples of the earth! Haste ye to do the pleasure of God, and war ye valiantly, as it behooveth you to war, for the sake of proclaiming His resistless and immovable Cause. We have decreed that war shall be waged in the path of God with the armies of wisdom and utterance, and of a goodly character and praiseworthy deeds. Thus hath it been decided by Him Who is the All-Powerful, the Almighty. There is no glory for him that committeth disorder on the earth after it hath been made so good. Fear God, O people, and be not of them that act unjustly…Beware lest ye shed the blood of anyone. Unsheathe the sword of your tongue from the scabbard of utterance, for therewith ye can conquer the citadels of men’s hearts. We have abolished the law to wage holy war against each other. God’s mercy hath, verily, encompassed all created things, if ye do but understand… O people! Spread not disorder in the land, and shed not the blood of any one, and consume not the substance of others wrongfully, neither follow every accursed prattler. ~Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, 24-25

So utterance that can subdue hearts is why we are here; hopefully it will have effect on those who are really seeking, who ask questions, as people did of Jesus, and not presume to know better than God what might be over the horizon.

planten: Different things are emphasized in each age. Some Messengers became reduced by their own followers who belittled their importance, others were over-emphasized. Baha’is are not towing Christianity. The OT, which you have to accept as a Muslim, says, (as I wrote before) that the pre-existent Wisdom, the first Creation, which possesses secondary eternity, derived from the Creator, was the agency thru which all other things came into being. You say Christ did not create anything? Then you deny the Gospel that Muhammad revered, when it says in John 1:1-3 “without Him was not anything made.”

It seems Baha’is have to teach Jews, Christians and Muslims etc. about the essence of their own faiths.

And I think by now, this thread has shown that Baha’i is not a cult that dismisses Jesus, as appeared in the beginning of it. Rather, you cannot become a Baha’i without believing in Jesus’ Revelation, as well as Muhammad’s Revelation. Whoever obeyed Muhammad obeyed God. I hope planten gains a firmer understanding of the “islám” before and after Muhammad.

 

[planten]

From DavidMark:
planten: Different things are emphasized in each age. Some Messengers became reduced by their own followers who belittled their importance, others were over-emphasized. Baha’is are not towing Christianity.

From davidHouse:
As regards your last point, about Bahá’ís “towing the [C]hristian [F]aith faithfully”, if I understand correctly, then certainly I hope we are.

Please can you two Baha’is see the opposite answers to my remarks. DavidHouse is saying that Baha’is are towing the line of christianity.
DavidMark is denying it.

Can you two please come to some unified stand. You are making men into God for whaever reason. that is bad. Such lesson was never taught by any prophet of God. But since according to you Bahaullah is God Himself,then he has the power to say and teach what he likes.

**Now another thing:

Baha’u’llah abrogated “jihad” and so Baha’is cannot resort to the sword to defend their religion… Historically many Christians have rationalized the use of the sword just as have many Muslims.

One of the wonderful things Bahá’u’llád did on the first day of the Declaration of His Mission, in 1863, was to abrogate military jíhad. This seems to have been a first

**

That is good. Bahaullah abrogated Jihad. But in what words and what force? When was the abrogation announced openly?

There was another person, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian, who also announced that Jihad with sword to spread Islam was illegal. It was anti Islamic. That type of Jihad was a sin. Jihad with sword was haraam. This he did in year 1892 A.D.(approx).

That person, Mirza ghulam Ahmad cliamed openly that he was the Imam mahdi. That he was the second coming of Jesus (in spirit only). Muslims did not believe him and they opposed him.

I have no intention of opposing anything of Baha’is. But I need to know whether:

1. Bahaullah personnaly and openly claimed that he was the Imam Mahdi?
2. That he was the Promised Masiha?

Please produce his own words so that we know about his claim in his own words and not in the words of others.

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

Dear Planten,

Your intention of reading the words for yourself is laudable. You can find some of what you seek in a book called Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah.

For example:

IX. O Husayn! Consider the eagerness with which certain peoples and nations have anticipated the return of Imam-Husayn, whose coming, after the appearance of the Qaa’im, hath been prophesied, in days past, by the chosen ones of God, exalted be His glory. These holy ones have, moreover, announced that when He Who is the Day Spring of the manifold grace of God manifesteth Himself, all the Prophets and Messengers, including the Qaa’im, will gather together beneath the shadow of the sacred Standard which the Promised One will raise. **That hour is now come. **The world is illumined with the effulgent glory of His countenance. …

and

X. The time foreordained unto the peoples and kindreds of the earth is now come…

You can find the first of these at:
reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-9.html
and the second by clicking on ‘next’ (top right), and then take it from there. The book is a compilation of Baha’u’llah’s writings on his most important doctrines.

The same site has the Persian and Arabic originals of these translations.

Sen

 

[DavidHouse]

DavidMark;5594370:

planten: Different things are emphasized in each age. Some Messengers became reduced by their own followers who belittled their importance, others were over-emphasized. Baha’is are not towing Christianity.

As regards your last point, about Bahá’ís “towing the [C]hristian [F]aith faithfully”, if I understand correctly, then certainly I hope we are.

Please can you two Baha’is see the opposite answers to my remarks. DavidHouse is saying that “Baha’is are towing the line of christianity.” DavidMark is denying it. Can you two please come to some unified stand.

Please forgive me for apparently not being clear. The problem may well arise because the meaning of the original verb choice is muddy. That is, the meaning of “towing” is rather unclear.

With regard to the disagreement which you assert exists between DavidMark and I, I do not claim to represent him, but reading his post, I can say that it certainly would be true that the Bahá’í Faith is not some sort of reiteration of Christianity. There would be no point in God sending the Spirit back to mankind, as Christ promised (c.f. John 16:13), unless He had come to tell mankind those things which Christ could not, because, as He said, at His advent, we were not ready to bear them. DavidMark, in other words, was talking about whether the Bahá’í Faith is the same as Christianity, and it is not.

For my part, what I was saying in perhaps too subtle a manner was that I believe fully and firmly that what Bahá’ís are striving to understand and promulgate is the truth of the Gospels. This is obviously sometimes different, and sometimes very different, than the interpretation of individual Christians. Thus I was speaking about an effort, an intention, to seek the purity of Christ’s message.

In other words, as the context of his post clearly demonstrates, DavidMark was talking about whether Christianity and the Bahá’í Faith are the same, and he was saying that they are not. Obviously true. I was saying that Bahá’ís strive to promote the truth of the Bible, the Qu’rán, and the other Holy Books of mankind, which arise from One Truth. And just as obviously, there is no contradiction between these two.

No doubt it was not your intention, but bending the meaning of what DavidMark was saying and what I was saying about two different things-- and conflating them based on the use of one word-- might offer the appearance of avoiding the issues, tossing in a cloud of dust, producing a smoke screen.

Consider that for two posts now in responses to me, you have pursued minor and peripheral points such as this issue about “towing”, without addressing the issue about which I first posted, which was a Scriptural demonstration and support for the thought that the body of Christ is His church, and that the trauma of the crucifixion caused His followers to lose their faith. Thus “His body”, the church, died at the same time that His physical body died, and it is clear from Scripture that the church, His body, was resurrected when His followers regained their faith (starting, mind you, with the two Marys).

In my second post, I addressed your statement (and forgive me if I take this out of context; please respond and tell me so) that

…Jesus was God…

As with the first issue regarding various ways of understanding the resurrection, this clearly is an important issue. Yet you did not respond with regard to that analysis either. (As you are Muslim, I find in reading some of your posts, then it may well be that you do not believe Christ was God. If so, fine. Please tell me and we will move forward.)

But the main point is that as you are a seeker of truth, then please, address the core issues. Let’s agree to not to manufacture illusory differences, but rather to try to turn toward the brilliant light of the Spirit.

As I previously said, I would appreciate understanding the Scriptural basis you have for making the assertions you make. I have provided some of mine, and I think it would be of benefit to both of us to dig deeper into the meaning of these very important issues, and, without arguing, nevertheless vigorously and with a dedication to truth, to mutually strive to better understand. Show me where I err. Teach me new things. I am ready.

d.

 

[arthra]

Just a few comments…

For Planten…

The authority for Baha’is are the Writings themselves not what each Baha’i may offer… These Writings were revealed through Baha’u’llah and the Bab and the Interpretations of Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi… also just a piece of advice… I’ve noticed you seem to feel that large type or size of font or colored font help make the points you are trying to make. You should know better.

For Yankiedoodle…

Thanks for your post!

Yes the universe is an amazing place and there is more of it we believe than the material aspect we humans have thus far been able to ascertain up to this point and that’s why it is important to consider the historical reality of the lives and teachings of what we call the great Manifestations of God and their impact on human developement and achievements. Baha’is acknowledge the great contributions made by scientists and we are very much in favor of respecting those findings. We believe there should be a greater harmony between science and religion.

Welcome to the Forum Sen!

• Art

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

Long unread postings seem to be the hallmark of this discussion. I doubt that anyone is listening to the other.

David House, I believe I knew your father-in-law in Madagascar.

 

[DavidHouse]

Long unread postings seem to be the hallmark of this discussion. I doubt that anyone is listening to the other.

For any part I may have in that, my apologies. My time is limited so I find that I only read the most recent posts, perhaps with less attention than I should…

David House, I believe I knew your father-in-law in Madagascar.

That would be my dear friend Fred. As you may know he passed away. How amazing that you knew him! Can you share any stories or information with me about that? I would appreciate it.

d.

 

[planten]

Please forgive me for apparently not being clear. The problem may well arise because the meaning of the original verb choice is muddy. That is, the meaning of “towing” is rather unclear.

…
Consider that for two posts now in responses to me, you have pursued minor and peripheral points such as this issue about “towing”, without addressing the issue about which I first posted, which was a Scriptural demonstration and support for the thought that the body of Christ is His church, and that the trauma of the crucifixion caused His followers to lose their faith. Thus “His body”, the church, died at the same time that His physical body died, and it is clear from Scripture that the church, His body, was resurrected when His followers regained their faith (starting, mind you, with the two Marys).

** Yes, I used the word “Towing” for the promotion, i.e. the Baha’is are promoting the christian faith. And both of you should have understood my allegation. Perhaps now you must have come to one conclusion about it.**

In my second post, I addressed your statement (and forgive me if I take this out of context; please respond and tell me so) that

I cannot keep track of your every previous writing.

As with the first issue regarding various ways of understanding the resurrection, this clearly is an important issue. Yet you did not respond with regard to that analysis either. (As you are Muslim, I find in reading some of your posts, then it may well be that you do not believe Christ was God. If so, fine. Please tell me and we will move forward.)

**Perhaps you know that Muslims do not believe that Jesus was crucified, meaning, died on the cross. Crucified means dying on the cross. If you do not know what is the belief of the Muslims about the trial and trouble of Jesus on the cross and after coming down from the cross. Please find out.

Muslims do not believe that Jesus died on the Cross. But the Christians definitely believe that. And the Baha’is also believe the same.**

But the main point is that as you are a seeker of truth, then please, address the core issues. Let’s agree to not to manufacture illusory differences, but rather to try to turn toward the brilliant light of the Spirit.

**What truth when there is a complication of the words. You people say that Bahaullah and Jesus were God and were not God too. There is a clear contradiction in that statement. The christians amde only one God. That was Jesus. You people have made every prophet into God and then denied the same. I cannot understand what you are teaching.

When the previous prophets, all of them, never said that they were God, then why you should start this new formula?**

There is a problem about your understanding of the resurrection betweenthe Bahis and the christians. I asked for clarification. But there was a complication of words. The Muslims do not believe that Jesus die don the cross.So the resurrection is not necessary.

As I previously said, I would appreciate understanding the Scriptural basis you have for making the assertions you make. I have provided some of mine, and I think it would be of benefit to both of us to dig deeper into the meaning of these very important issues, and, without arguing, nevertheless vigorously and with a dedication to truth, to mutually strive to better understand. Show me where I err. Teach me new things. I am ready.

d.

You should be knowing the Muslims beliefs. If you need any information about any specific matter then please ask me in easy words.

 

[DavidMark]

DavidHouse and I know each other pretty well. He accurately discerned my intentions.

planten and others are worried about this or that divine Manifestation claiming to be God.
Buddha certainly did not emphasize it, but His shining life and mission show He was!
I have mentioned the analogy of the mirror, and planten said he understood that, but it is still a question to me that he does.

planten: Please try to understand that we refer to these Messengers as a series of Primal Mirrors, most of whom are mentioned in the Surah of Húd. They are creations of God, and have not attained their purity on their own. You cannot deny that Muhammad was an illiterate merchant who staggered under the weight of the Message he was to give to the rest of mankind.

Yes, Muslims stress Muhammad’s humanity; and Catholics stress Jesus’ divinity; but the fact is both bore Revelations from God. Gabriel announced the Word to Mary, Gabriel announced the Qur’an to Muhammad. What’s the difference? Each one prescribes what is fit for His time until the Next Revelation.

planten: You want to see how Bahá’u’lláh said He is God? Here is a sample:
Say: O concourse of the rulers and of the learned and the wise! The Promised Day is come and the Lord of Hosts hath appeared. Rejoice ye with great joy by reason of this supreme felicity. Aid Him then through the power of wisdom and utterance. Thus biddeth you the One Who hath ever proclaimed, ‘Verily, no God is there but Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.’ (Tablets of Baha’u’llah, p. 239)

Now, the Twin Trumpet-Blasts of the Báb & Bahá’u’lláh have sounded! It is not a drill!
This is the Promised Day of They are manifested to the rest of us. They are Servants reflecting God’s will. How else can we understand the Unknowable Essence?

The form and content of the ministries might vary, but whoever obeys them obeys God, whoever loves them loves God. If a person’s faith connects them to this belief, well and good; if not, may they take comfort in knowing that His mercy surpasses His wrath.

For Catholics, consider that Peter denied the Lord three times, but eventually served and was martyred. The Popes, however, have denied three Revelations, and like Jews, manufacture reasons not to accept the whole story about Progressive Revelation.

 

[planten]

DavidHouse and I know each other pretty well. He accurately discerned my intentions.

planten and others are worried about this or that divine Manifestation claiming to be God.
Buddha certainly did not emphasize it, but His shining life and mission show He was!

**DavidMark, please complete your sentence about Budha. What he was?

You say : but His shining life and mission show He was! **

Yes, I would disagree seriously with any divine manifestation claiming to be God. We Muslims had much discussions about that the christians and that was the main difference between the Muslims and the christians. It is mentione din the Quran too.

You are leaping all bounds and teaching something which was not taught by Abraham and Moses and any prophet. But for some flimsy reason, you are taking a bold step forward and making the men of God as God, and that also not fully God. But you sy that they were men.

So why not take one stand? You may praise a person (Bahaullah) as much as you like. Make him a pious person. But please do not make him God for any reason. Am I guilty of anything? Or you are teaching something which could be highly objectionable.

I have yet to see the exact actual words of Bahaullah that he was God.

I have mentioned the analogy of the mirror, and planten said he understood that, but it is still a question to me that he does.

I understand the analogy of the mirror. But the mirror or the image in the mirror does not become Sun. It still remains an image only. If you say that bahaullah was the manifestation or just an image of God, that would be debatable. But there is no ground to call any mortal as God.

planten: Please try to understand that we refer to these Messengers as a series of Primal Mirrors, most of whom are mentioned in the Surah of Húd. They are creations of God, and have not attained their purity on their own. You cannot deny that Muhammad was an illiterate merchant who staggered under the weight of the Message he was to give to the rest of mankind.

Yes, Muslims stress Muhammad’s humanity; and Catholics stress Jesus’ divinity; but the fact is both bore Revelations from God. Gabriel announced the Word to Mary, Gabriel announced the Qur’an to Muhammad. What’s the difference? Each one prescribes what is fit for His time until the Next Revelation.

** I let it pass. Now I ask about Bahaullah. Did he also get the messages from God care of the angel Gabriel? Like did Jesus and Muhammad and other prophets? Did Bahaullah say that he was getting revelations (Wahi) from God? Please show in exact words of Bahaullah. Thanks**.

planten: You want to see how Bahá’u’lláh said He is God? Here is a sample:
Say: O concourse of the rulers and of the learned and the wise! The Promised Day is come and the Lord of Hosts hath appeared. Rejoice ye with great joy by reason of this supreme felicity. Aid Him then through the power of wisdom and utterance. Thus biddeth you the One Who hath ever proclaimed, ‘Verily, no God is there but Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.’ (Tablets of Baha’u’llah, p. 239)

** That is a round about way of saying things. Who will decode the matter? The last few words of the para above cannot be understood easily. We cannot connect anything who is who. Is Bahaullah saying that he is God? How Come? **.

Now, the Twin Trumpet-Blasts of the Báb & Bahá’u’lláh have sounded! It is not a drill!
This is the Promised Day of They are manifested to the rest of us. They are Servants reflecting God’s will. How else can we understand the Unknowable Essence?

Who is saying the above? Is it bahaullah or one of you fellows?

The form and content of the ministries might vary, but whoever obeys them obeys God, whoever loves them loves God. If a person’s faith connects them to this belief, well and good; if not, may they take comfort in knowing that His mercy surpasses His wrath

.

**Yes that is good. Obedience is necessary.But who is what? One has to prove that he is :

1. Appointed by God.
2. That he is on a mission.
3. he has to proclaim his mission.
4. he should never say that he is God.
5. It is alright for him to say that he is a servant of God.

What really is the case with bahaullah?**

For Catholics, consider that Peter denied the Lord three times, but eventually served and was martyred. The Popes, however, have denied three Revelations, and like Jews, manufacture reasons not to accept the whole story about Progressive Revelation.

This has nothing to do with me. We Muslims beleive that all the apostles of Jesus were very good and steadfast devout followers of Jesus and they supported Jesus very well.

 

[arthra]

Platen,

We’ve been over this before…

Also from Baha’u’llah in His own words:

The Prophets and Messengers of God have been sent down for the sole purpose of guiding mankind to the straight Path of Truth. The purpose underlying their revelation hath been to educate all men, that they may, at the hour of death, ascend, in the utmost purity and sanctity and with absolute detachment, to the throne of the Most High. The light which these souls radiate is responsible for the progress of the world and the advancement of its peoples. They are like unto leaven which leaveneth the world of being, and constitute the animating force through which the arts and wonders of the world are made manifest. Through them the clouds rain their bounty upon men, and the earth bringeth forth its fruits. All things must needs have a cause, a motive power, an animating principle. These souls and symbols of detachment have provided, and will continue to provide, the supreme moving impulse in the world of being.

Gleanings, pp. 156-57.

There’s a good article on the subject that also may help clarify it for you at

bahai-library.com/writings/abdulbaha/saq/37.html

You know that Baha’is promote spiritual Christianity to Muslims and spiritual Islam to Christians…What we don’t promote though is a literalist and dogmatic approach to religion.

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

… the calculations he showed me seemed to make logical sense at the time, but there was no holiness in them, no portion of faith. It just seemed like he was trying to show me a mathematical proof for his religion which I think denounces God’s plan for us to be people of faith, not just merely scholars of information…Mateo

Hi, I’m a Bahai. I agree with you, and I think you’ve put it very well. It sounds like you came across an evangelical-protestant-Bahai. There’s a lot of it going around, especially in the anglo-american world. It’s a matter of the inculturation of the religion. Many of the first Bahais were converts from millenialist sects, millenial fervour was in the air in the anglo-protestant world, so the questions they asked Abdu’l-Baha were often about prophecies, Daniel, Revelation (although they also asked about the Trinity, Resurection, Sin and Creation), and the first Bahai books written in English took up the themes that mattered to those people, and so on. In contrast, in the Dutch, German and French Bahai communities, you hardly ever hear a reference to numerical prophecies and the like.

The Bahais have been saying for 30 years, that we really need an outline of the Bahai history and doctrine written for Roman Catholics. We still don’t have one. There was one written by a Spanish ex-priest which was translated 20 years agoe, but it was autobiographical and idiosyncratic in style, and didn’t fit the bill. I think it’s out of print now. We have introductory books written for Buddhists and Muslims, but not for Catholics !

You could try asking if there was someone from a Roman Catholic background in the local Bahai community. If someone comes from a protestant background, they are unlikely to be able to relate the Bahai teachings to concepts such as the sacraments and the body of Christ.

~~ Sen McGlinn

 

[DavidMark]

Alláh-u-Abhá Sen! I have just such an outline as you mention. A compilation which includes the Tablet to the Pope, The Guardian’s commentary about it, and the Bahá’í responses to many many issues, such as Infallibility, the priesthood, the Seven Sacraments, diet, and so on. I have offered it here before to anyone who wants the Word file emailed to them. MarkoPo1234@ao.com

To me, this particular stream, started by Mateo, has been Bahá’ís mostly trying to help “plan ten” understand we are not making Bahá’u’lláh and the Báb into God.

God causes His Vicregent to represent Him and His Cause on Earth, not the people.
I have tried everything I can think of to explain the mystery that the Manifestations are and are not God. For instance, God told Moses (Exodus 7:1) that he would be as God to Pharaoh, and Aaron, his brother, would be his prophet. Jesus said “He that hath seen me hath seen the Father” (John 14:9) and yet “No man hath seen God at any time” (1 John 4:12)
There are just as many passages in Bahá’í Scripture which are from the viewpoint of the Prophet as servant, just as previous Scripture had. And these divine Messengers are the first Servants, raised up by God to promote His Cause.Similar things can be found in the Qur’an regarding liqa’u’lláh (the Presence of God); and the first ranks of believers came from the Muslim background, as well as their persecutors, which shows that some will understand, and some won’t.

But I am not interested is constantly addressing plantens specific questions, or repeatedly reading about his disdain for the stations of the Central Figures, in large colored type (although that is an option provided to people in here, for some reason.)
I wish him the best in his efforts to understand the matchless nature of this Day.
I was hoping there would be more Catholic involvement, but I think my best contribution will be to those who are willing to see the document which I can email to them.

 

[Jerusha]

DavidMark, as I said long ago on this thread, Baha’i is an improvement over Islam and Mormonism. I encourage those people to take a good look at it, if they cannot accept Catholicism or even general Christianity.

As you can see, Catholics, for the most part, are just not interested, because what is good in Baha’i can also be found in Catholicism, and more.

:thankyou:

 

[arthra]

A lot of spiritual searching has been going on for the past hundred and sixty years or so and of course before that however it also depends on your own spiirtual antecedents I believe.

But I see some friendship and mutual respect also between Baha’i Faith and the Catholic Church…

See:

74.125.155.132/custom?q=cache:h0N2CX9tk9sJ:bahai-library.com/uhj/dialogue.new-delhi.html+catholic&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

A lot of spiritual searching has been going on for the past hundred and sixty years or so and of course before that however it also depends on your own spiirtual antecedents I believe.

But I see some friendship and mutual respect also between Baha’i Faith and the Catholic Church…

See:

74.125.155.132/custom?q=cache:h0N2CX9tk9sJ:bahai-library.com/uhj/dialogue.new-delhi.html+catholic&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Writing as a former Baha’i, now again an Episcopalian, this is about the best thing I have seen in this forum. There are many things that Baha’is have in common with Catholics. For one, they share strong teachings of personal morality and responsibility. They share a devotion to God (however expressed) and sadly, they share a sense that their way is the only way. But that can also be a strength. Too often in interfaith discussion “dialogue”, we have liberal Catholics talking to liberal Buddhists talking to liberal Muslims, all trying to find a liberal Zoroastrian while trying to avoid followers of neo-Egyptian, neo-Pagan, neo-Greco-Roman polythesims, etc. Better that we have solid, representative followers of each religion.