The Bible is a Catholic Document

[mercygate]

Xavier:

Please---- the bible was entrusted to the Jews, then Christian believers embraced it. Before there was a Catholic Church or an Orthodox Church or a Baptist Church.

Xavier. This is a matter of history. You are attempting to address it as a matter of theology in denial of the history. The idea of some invisible over-arching universal church beyond the boundaries of a historical church is a question of theology, and as I mentioned earlier, a necessary development of the Reformation because the tether to the mother Church has been severed. For the first thousand years the Church, which historically continues today as the Catholic Church (and the Orthodox Churches now separated from us: we who actually can trace our history to Christ through Peter) – was the ONLY game in town.

This is the Church that produced the New Testament and canonized the old. This is not a matter of claiming something that cannot be supported by plenteous evidence.

 

[Greg_McPherran]

Hi Xavier (actually that name is Catholic also isn’t it?)

Xavier:

Not totally correct. The Bible is God inspired. Jesus did not give it but the spirit of God who rested on his chosen writers.

These chosen writers were in the Catholic Church.

Xavier:

Jesus is the Word made flesh.

Protestants always say the flesh profits nothing.

Xavier:

Jesus gave us a church and we disagree what Church that was.

This division is warned about in Scripture. I think we have to determine who started the divisions.

Greg

 

[mercygate]

p90:

How is what you’ve written here relevant?

~Matt

It delineates a distinction between the transmission of grace through the historical Church as the privileged and ordinary path of grace and the absolute freedom of God . Much discussion in this area founders on a narrow vision of the Church as somehow being in control of God.

 

[Xavier]

mercygate:

Xavier. This is a matter of history. You are attempting to address it as a matter of theology in denial of the history. The idea of some invisible over-arching universal church beyond the boundaries of a historical church is a question of theology, and as I mentioned earlier, a necessary development of the Reformation because the tether to the mother Church has been severed. For the first thousand years the Church, which historically continues today as the Catholic Church (and the Orthodox Churches now separated from us: we who actually can trace our history to Christ through Peter) – was the ONLY game in town.

This is the Church that produced the New Testament and canonized the old. This is not a matter of claiming something that cannot be supported by plenteous evidence.

It was the “only game” in town, it became corrupt and perverse in many aspects. Since Christ Church is an invisable over arching church we are all part of His Church.

I know you cant agree to this arguement as it was put forth by the reformers. Men who fought against the corruption of the day.

 

[mercygate]

**2 Timothy 3 **3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

To quote Scripture in proof of itself does not validate the claim. Catholics, however, KNOW why Scripture is inerrant and the inspired word of God.

 

[mercygate]

Xavier:

I know you cant agree to this arguement as it was put forth by the reformers. Men who fought against the corruption of the day.

Yes, Xavier!! We can agree that the Reformers fought against the corruption of the day. Unfortunately, there was plenty of it! And it is to the everlasting grief of the Church that the situation devolved into the tragedy of the Reformation.

 

[Xavier]

mercygate:

To quote Scripture in proof of itself does not validate the claim. Catholics, however, KNOW why Scripture is inerrant and the inspired word of God.

If God said it, thats good enough for me.

 

[mercygate]

p90:

My response was historical in nature; discussing the form of the early church is historical. I also didn’t claim that the universal church “transcends” the church founded by Christ. It is the church founded by Christ.

My apology if I misunderstood, Matt. I thought you meant some “universal” Church that was somehow outside the historical Church founded by Christ and transmitted through the Apostles.

 

[Xavier]

mercygate:

Yes, Xavier!! We can agree that the Reformers fought against the corruption of the day. Unfortunately, there was plenty of it! And it is to the everlasting grief of the Church that the situation devolved into the tragedy of the Reformation.

Can only agree with you.

 

[mercygate]

Xavier:

If God said it, thats good enough for me.

But to say “God said it” means that you have already accepted the idea that Scripture is inspired. Why? How do you KNOW that God said it? Your quote from 2 Timothy 3 refers only to the Old Testament because the Epistle to Timothy was written before the canon of the New Testament was drawn up. So by the reasoning of that verse, we don’t need the New Testament.

Would it prove the Bible is inspired if there were a verse in it that said: “The Bible is inspired?”

 

[Greg_McPherran]

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

The New Testament wasn’t even completely canonized at this time. How is 2 Timothy 3:16 a reference to the New Testament?

2 Timothy 3:15: and that from infancy you have known (the) sacred scriptures,

2 Timothy 3:10: You have followed my teaching, way of life, purpose…

2 Timothy 3:13: But wicked people and charlatans will go from bad to worse, deceivers and deceived.

2 Timothy 3:14: But you, remain faithful to what you have learned and believed, because you know from whom you learned it,

 

[p90]

mercygate:

It delineates a distinction between the transmission of grace through the historical Church as the privileged and ordinary path of grace and the absolute freedom of God . Much discussion in this area founders on a narrow vision of the Church as somehow being in control of God.

Thanks for explaining.

~Matt

 

[p90]

Greg_McPherran:

The New Testament wasn’t even completely canonized at this time. How is 2 Timothy 3:16 a reference to the New Testament?

At risk of pushing this thread further from the original subject, Paul quotes New Testament Scripture in 1 Timothy 5:18.

~Matt

 

[Pax]

Xavier:

… Since Christ Church is an invisable over arching church we are all part of His Church.
…

Please show from scripture where it says or indicates that Christ’s Church is invisible.

You would do well to read the 17th chapter of John’s gospel to see how Jesus prays for the unity of His followers. At the end of His prayer Jesus says in John 17:21, “that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.”

This is a visible church. It is a light on the hill. It is a church of such unity that all can see it “so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.” The world cannot see an invisible church and the world cannot see any unity within Protestantism that would make them believe that Jesus was sent by the Father for their salvation. There are other passages in scripture that also indicate that we are talking about a visible church, but there are no passages that would lead us to believe that the church is an invisible group of believers.

 

[Pax]

Xavier:

Please---- the bible was entrusted to the Jews, then Christian believers embraced it. Before there was a Catholic Church or an Orthodox Church or a Baptist Church.

Ignatius of Antioch, a first century bishop, who was taught by the apostle John, wrote a series of letters while on his way to Rome to be martyred. In one of his letters, Ignatius refers to the Church as “Catholic,” and the term has been applied to the church founded by Jesus Christ ever since that time. The Catholic Church is not a denomination. It is instead the Christian Church founded by Jesus. There were no other Christians except Catholic Christians until after the Protestant revolt. That is the historical record.

 

[Greg_McPherran]

p90:

At risk of pushing this thread further from the original subject, Paul quotes New Testament Scripture in 1 Timothy 5:18.

Yes, but was he referring to the entire New Testament in 2 Timothy 3:16?

 

[mercygate]

p90:

At risk of pushing this thread further from the original subject, Paul quotes New Testament Scripture in 1 Timothy 5:18.
~Matt

Good point, Matt: See Deuteronomy 25:4. “You shall notmuzzle an ox when it treads out the grain.”

OK. That was mean of me.

But even if Paul is quoting what ultimately became canonized as “The Gospel According to Luke” in the “laborer is worthy of his hire” statement, at the time Paul was writing, it was not yet “Scripture.” The canon had not yet been defined.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

What, you mean Paul wasn’t originally quoting from his leatherette copy of the King James version of the Bible?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

If anybody saw and was upset by my snarky little remark on this thread a little earlier, please know that I deeply apologize for it, have deleted it, and sincerely regret saying anything which might have been hurtful to anybody.

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

 

[Steve_M]

p90:

At risk of pushing this thread further from the original subject, Paul quotes New Testament Scripture in 1 Timothy 5:18.

~Matt

On a few occations Paul also quotes pagan philosophers.