The Bible is Catholic -

[mercygate]

Funny thing because a lot of the spiritual leaders where condemned by Christ for their sins and errors, but things where okay. Under that logic as long as some one somewhere pretends to follow a teaching life is good and God does not need to fix things. On the other hand at that time God did send John the Baptist and His Son to fix things.

We seem to be talking past each other.

Christians see in salvation history a constant theme of falling away and restoration with ever-broadening restorative covenants to Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David and finally, Our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

Christians believe that Christ is the final restoration, who promises to be “always” with His Church “to the end of the age.” The Church can no more “disappear” than Israel can disappear – in fact, the Church encompasses Israel, because the Covenant of Christ is the *“catholic” *covenant – encompassing all men into the Covenant with Israel.

In this sense, Christians believe that the ancients, by their faith, are members of the Church.

 

[HashemEchad]

I have a question:

Where are these doctrines found in the Bible?

That Mary is the co-redemptrix?

That she is a mediatrix of all graces?

 

[Ronald_E]

And I, your intended disciple, comes to you with a Bible I got from another friend. We’re looking through it and I realize that the bible my friend gave me has more books in it than yours does. Seven of them to be exact. In addition, this Bible has longer a longer version of the Book of Daniel in it.

So now I look at you and ask, "How can you tell me that the Bible is the True and innerrant word of God when these two “Holy Bibles” have different numbers of books and different versions of books in them?
If God is providing this perfect Book for us, how can there be this difference?

Peace
James

Good morning James, I think that someotherguy has been banned. There was another thread with his name as the heading and this morning it was printed under his name the word banned. Does that mean he is not permitted in any thread?
I am sorry that has happened.

 

[mercygate]

Good morning James, I think that someotherguy has been banned. There was another thread with his name as the heading and this morning it was printed under his name the word banned. Does that mean he is not permitted in any thread?
I am sorry that has happened.

Yup. He cannot post on CAF. He could re-register as “someotherguy” (i.e. under another name) and start over.

I think we should start a thread about

1. diagnosing contumely before an engagement deteriorates into a shouting match
2. engaging the unasked question or the unspoken assumption when somebody comes on with the usual accusations about the Church
3. giving the “soft” answer
4. disarming an attacker

 

[sandusky]

I have a question:

Where are these doctrines found in the Bible?

That Mary is the co-redemptrix?

That she is a mediatrix of all graces?

They have no biblical basis.

 

[Lampo]

I have a question:

Where are these doctrines found in the Bible?

That Mary is the co-redemptrix?

That she is a mediatrix of all graces?

Your underlying assumption is that to be considered Christian, it must be found explicitly in the Bible. This needs to be addressed first. What do you base this assumption on? The Catholic Church does not adhere to the doctrine of sola scriptura. Sola scriptura is unbiblical and not taught by the early Church fathers. the Bible never claims that it is the sole, infallible, authoritative source for all matters pertaining to Christian belief and practice.

The perspective of history tells us is that the early Christians did not believe in this doctrine. We know that because there was no Bible, as we have it now, for them to consult as their authoritative guide in questions of Christian teaching and practice. Plus, the first book of the New Testament was not written for at least 10 years or more after the death of Christ. So, for at least 10 years, Christians were having to decide questions of doctrine and practice without a single book of the New Testament to consult.

Furthermore, the last book of the New Testament wasn’t written for at least 40, and probably more likely 60 years or more, after the death of Christ. And, because of the state of transportation and communication in the world of the 1st century, it could often be years before a particular Christian community received a copy of this or that book of the New Testament. In other words, the early Christians went many decades without even the possibility of being able to use the Bible as the sole source of authority in matters of Christian teaching and practice. Which means they could not, and did not, believe in the doctrine of Sola Scriptura.

When Martin Luther broke from the Catholic Church, and started teaching the doctrine of Sola Scriptura, it was around the year 1520. By the year 1600, it is said there were more than two hundred non-Catholic denominations. By the year 1900, it is estimated the number of denominations numbered almost a thousand. And, now, in the year 2008, there are estimated to be some thirty thousand or more non-Catholic denominations! Each denomination claims to be based on the Bible alone, and each claims to be guided by the Holy Spirit; yet, none of them have the exact same body of doctrine, and many, many of them have doctrines that absolutely contradict one another.

2 Tim 3:16-17 reads as follows: “All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.” However, it nowhere says anything about the Bible being the sole rule of faith for the Christian.

There are two main things to note about this passage: 1) It says scripture is “profitable”, it does not say scripture is “all sufficient”; in other words, it does not say that the Bible is the sole rule of faith for Christians…the sole authority in matters of faith and morals for Christians; and, 2) Nowhere do we see the word “alone” in this passage, as in “scripture alone”.

What this passage is saying, and all this passage is saying, is that all of Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching and correction and so forth.

Let me ask you a few questions.

1. Where did the Bible come from?
2. What authority do we rely on for our belief that the Bible is the inspired, inerrant, Word of God?
3. Is there a list of books in the Bible, which tells us which books should be in the Bible?
4. What authority prevents me from disagreeing with the canon of Scripture as we currently have it and putting my own Bible together?
5. Did the early Christians believe in the doctrine of Sola Scriptura?
6. Has the doctrine of Sola Scriptura proven to be a unifying factor or a dividing factor within the Body of Christ?

 

[mercygate]

I have a question:

Where are these doctrines found in the Bible?

That Mary is the co-redemptrix?

That she is a mediatrix of all graces?

These questions should go to another thread (and have been treated any number of times on CAF).

Rather than asking these specific questions that will lead to specific answers delineating the underlying scriptural and logical principles supporting these teachings, you might more profitably start a thread on how the Church determines an authentic understanding of revelation as she lives out her Gospel mission over time.

 

[JRKH]

Good morning James, I think that someotherguy has been banned. There was another thread with his name as the heading and this morning it was printed under his name the word banned. Does that mean he is not permitted in any thread?
I am sorry that has happened.

I am sorry that it had to happen too although, in all honesty, I sort of felt it was coming. He was just marching too close to the line in many of his posts. He would either be banned, or would just quit coming here.
Unfortunately his being banned will likely just be an excuse for him to trash the Church for “refusing to listen to the Gospel according to him”.

I am a bit disappointed because I was curious to see if he would choose to address the scenerio I presented to him.

Oh Well:shrug:
Perhaps one of our other Protestant Brothers will take a stab at it since it does figure directly into the idea of authority.
One can say that a Bible is “mistranslated” (i.e. JW’s) but how does one deal with different numbers of books and books missing entire passages contained in the Catholic and Protestant Bibles when one is trying to present the Bible as the true and inerrant Word of God?

Peace
James

 

[joe370]

Yet you don’t offer any of such merits for examination!

We’ve been extremely patient with you here yet you consistently do absolutely nothing but babble and make appeals to emotion, for example: the numerous times you’ve labeled someone here a blasphemer or of “insulting God’s word” when we’ve only played devil’s advocate in order to understand exactly where you’re coming from.

Maybe if I scream in all caps it will get through to you:

TELL ME PRECISELY WHY YOU BELIEVE THE BIBLE TO BE THE WORD OF GOD WITHOUT APPEALING TO AD HOMINEMS, NON SEQUITORS, OR CIRCULAR REASONING

Thank You.

WELL SAID!!! Anxious to see what comes next!!!

 

[mercygate]

One can say that a Bible is “mistranslated” (i.e. JW’s) but how does one deal with different numbers of books and books **missing entire passages **contained in the Catholic and Protestant Bibles when one is trying to present the Bible as the true and inerrant Word of God?

Peace
James

The world champion of the Daniel argument is CAF member and Catholic blogger itsjustdave1988.

 

[Ronald_E]

I am sorry that it had to happen too although, in all honesty, I sort of felt it was coming. He was just marching too close to the line in many of his posts. He would either be banned, or would just quit coming here.
Unfortunately his being banned will likely just be an excuse for him to trash the Church for “refusing to listen to the Gospel according to him”.

I am a bit disappointed because I was curious to see if he would choose to address the scenerio I presented to him.

Oh Well:shrug:
Perhaps one of our other Protestant Brothers will take a stab at it since it does figure directly into the idea of authority.
One can say that a Bible is “mistranslated” (i.e. JW’s) but how does one deal with different numbers of books and books missing entire passages contained in the Catholic and Protestant Bibles when one is trying to present the Bible as the true and inerrant Word of God?

Peace
James

He sounded like my younger brother who left our faith when he turned 18 and is now studying to be a non-denominational fundamentalist pastor. He believes our Catholic faith is where the anit-christ will make his appearance. Underlying his belief is an unresolved anger with authority and a sense of inferiority. I know this to be true because this is where I began my journey home. I will be seeing him in a couple of weeks.
Take care today.

 

[JRKH]

He sounded like my younger brother who left our faith when he turned 18 and is now studying to be a non-denominational fundamentalist pastor. He believes our Catholic faith is where the anit-christ will make his appearance. Underlying his belief is an unresolved anger with authority and a sense of inferiority. I know this to be true because this is where I began my journey home. I will be seeing him in a couple of weeks.
Take care today.

I am offering a prayer for him and you now.
May God lighten Ron’s Brother’s burden and sorrow. May he find peace and forgiveness in his hear for any percieved wrongs done to him by his poor catholic bretheren.
May he come to see the light in your most Holy Church, and may Ronald be guided in his ministering to his brother by your Holy and Blessed Spirit through which all may be drawn back to you.
I ask this in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
Amen

 

[Ronald_E]

Yup. He cannot post on CAF. He could re-register as “someotherguy” (i.e. under another name) and start over.

I think we should start a thread about

1. diagnosing contumely before an engagement deteriorates into a shouting match
2. engaging the unasked question or the unspoken assumption when somebody comes on with the usual accusations about the Church
3. giving the “soft” answer
4. disarming an attacker

I agree Mercygate. I have worked and studied psychotherapy for 30 years and I should have known better how to approach him. When I do not have face to face contact I guess I just assumed that he would know my intention was genuinely concerned with an understanding about the difference between the flesh and the spirit as it relates to our human interactions.

 

[mercygate]

I agree Mercygate. I have worked and studied psychotherapy for 30 years and I should have known better how to approach him. When I do not have face to face contact I guess I just assumed that he would know my intention was genuinely concerned with an understanding about the difference between the flesh and the spirit as it relates to our human interactions.

You have posted some valuable guideposts, and I appreciate the insight.

When Our Lord was faced with hostile questions, he often completely evaded them.

I consider one of my biggest “apologetics” triumphs an interchange with an a-C acquaintance, who started off with: “Where in the Bible does it say you have to confess to a MAN?”

My instantaneous rejoinder was a BIG smile and blurting out, “Heck! That’s one of the BEST things there is about being CATHOLIC! Did somebody tell you it’s not in the Bible?”

Conversation lasted less than 5 minutes. I noted that God does not leave the room when you go to confession, that only God forgives sins – through his apointed agent: John 20:20-23 (quoted verbatim from the KJV). Did they buy it? Nope. But they went away knowing that Catholics don’t make this stuff up out of the air.

 

[Ronald_E]

I am offering a prayer for him and you now.
May God lighten Ron’s Brother’s burden and sorrow. May he find peace and forgiveness in his hear for any percieved wrongs done to him by his poor catholic bretheren.
May he come to see the light in your most Holy Church, and may Ronald be guided in his ministering to his brother by your Holy and Blessed Spirit through which all may be drawn back to you.
I ask this in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
Amen

Thank you so much James. You made my week. God Bless You and my brother and also my two sisters. My youngest brother James(Jimmy) is 18 years younger than me has remained Catholic. So when I called home on Mother’s Day and everyone in my family who was gathered at my separated brother’s home I asked to speak to the only child left who had remained a Catholic because I was then assured that I would not start a family feud. My mother said everyone had a good laugh. We still love each other.

 

[JRKH]

You have posted some valuable guideposts, and I appreciate the insight.

When Our Lord was faced with hostile questions, he often completely evaded them.

I consider one of my biggest “apologetics” triumphs an interchange with an a-C acquaintance, who started off with: “Where in the Bible does it say you have to confess to a MAN?”

My instantaneous rejoinder was a BIG smile and blurting out, “Heck! That’s one of the BEST things there is about being CATHOLIC! Did somebody tell you it’s not in the Bible?”

Conversation lasted less than 5 minutes. I noted that God does not leave the room when you go to confession, that only God forgives sins – through his apointed agent: John 20:20-23 (quoted verbatim from the KJV). Did they buy it? Nope. But they went away knowing that Catholics don’t make this stuff up out of the air.

This last line is a very VERY good point.
It seems to me that, in conversations here, many people, both catholic and Non-catholic fail to realize the significance of the 2000 year history of the Church and it’s teachings. To a certain extent for catholics, we take it for granted, and for non-catholics they don’t seem to be able to get their head around it.

the Catholic Church is sort of like a 2000 year old university. Contained in it are a equally ancient teaching and research facilities. The Charter of this university was given by Christ Himself with the command to teach, to nourish, to reach out to all nations, and to be united in its basic principles of Love for God and for each other.
The Bible is can be likened to the Written Charter. It contains information on the Churches foundation, it’s mission, its authority, and the basic tenets of teaching that must be adhered to.
In addition to the Bible, many other writings, both contemporary to the NT writings and then following on down through the centuries, have been preserved, studied, researched and used in developing the fuller understandings of Truth that the Church has embraced over time.

For close to 2000 years the various forms of the Magesterium, the councils, and doctrinal bodies have based their research on this rich treasure of Church history and thought. All new ideas and current issues are studied and weighed within the context of this vast and wonderous asset.
We as Catholics simply do not have to constantly return to the Bible or other source documents to try and “re-invent” the Church. We don’t have to constantly try to tease meanings out of scripture. It’s all been done, and it’s been done by people with far more education and insight into the history, languages, cultures, etc of the early Church than most of us could ever aspire to.

The Protestant movement took the Charter away from this wonderous university (the Bible from the Church) and tried to say the Charter is right but the university is wrong. In so doing they threw out everything that had been learned up to that time and tried to start over. But they couldn’t because the Bible, that Charter is designed as a supporting document for a specific university, The Church, not as a stand alone blueprint of learning.

Seperating the Bible from the Church is like taking a high school freshman “Introduction to Physics” book from 1920 and trying to build a Mars rocket using just that book.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Thank you so much James. You made my week. God Bless You and my brother and also my two sisters. My youngest brother James(Jimmy) is 18 years younger than me has remained Catholic. So when I called home on Mother’s Day and everyone in my family who was gathered at my separated brother’s home I asked to speak to the only child left who had remained a Catholic because I was then assured that I would not start a family feud. My mother said everyone had a good laugh. We still love each other.

I’m a great believer in humor . Especially when talking religion. I love the drawing I’ve seen from time to time called the laughing Jesus. it lifts my heart ever time I run across one.

Peace
James

 

[Protestant101]

The world champion of the Daniel argument is CAF member and Catholic blogger itsjustdave1988.

I don’t know why you would call this person a “world champion;” because his writing is very amateur and innacurate. I like the way he “quotes” one Protestant historian and adds his own comments in square brackets, as if he was still quoting this Protestant. He was clearly telling us what the quote “really” means, and conveniently leaving out surrounding comments by the same Protestant which would have added the correct context.

All Catholics have done is to write their own version of the Bible, as have many other groups in the world. You have utterly failed in this thread to prove that the Protestant Canon, as is, is “insufficient.” The Bible says that God’s Word existed before the Catholic Church did. You guys didn’t write it; you only made your own version.

 

[Protestant101]

The Bible is can be likened to the Written Charter. It contains information on the Churches foundation, it’s mission, its authority, and the basic tenets of teaching that must be adhered to.
In addition to the Bible, many other writings, both contemporary to the NT writings and then following on down through the centuries, have been preserved, studied, researched and used in developing the fuller understandings of Truth that the Church has embraced over time.

Seperating the Bible from the Church is like taking a high school freshman “Introduction to Physics” book from 1920 and trying to build a Mars rocket using just that book.

Peace
James

The central teaching of the Bible is not the Church; it is of Jesus who is Head of the Church. The Bible has not been separated from any Church by Protestants; rather, Catholics have separated themselves from the Bible; by adding Traditions and Magisteriums that are not contained therein.

 

[Stephen_C]

The central teaching of the Bible is not the Church; it is of Jesus who is Head of the Church. The Bible has not been separated from any Church by Protestants; rather, Catholics have separated themselves from the Bible; by adding Traditions and Magisteriums that are not contained therein.

Well you almost got there…But you kinda got it backwards. The Bible was born out of Sacred Tradition and compliled/protected/preserved (guided by the Holy Spirit) by the Catholic Church in the 4th/5th Cen. That is History. Where is that non-Catholic bible you speak of around that time. Who compiled it?