The Bible is NOT infallible

  • Thread starter Thread starter Karl_Keating
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
40.png
SHEMP:
Although there are many theories as to how you can reconcile the contradictions and the scientific difficulties of the Bible, no reasonable person can deny that the belief in inerrancy is difficult.
Click to expand...
Kind of off topic, but I watched a video on how science theories actually points to the truth in the bible. The even had how the red sea really would have been able to be crossed on foot.
40.png
shemp:
When intellectually things get rough, I always look to the Church. Looking to the Bible on my own often is the rough road. As my protestent friends always say: “Let me ask my pastor”. There are many pastors. There is only one Church.
Click to expand...
Great point. My pastor was very important in my life when I was protestant. I would not trade my protestant roots for anything because that is where i got my great love of Jesus. And all my family is protestant, although I want them to come home to the One Church, I know their pastors are very important to them too.
 
This topic is related to one that was raised on a long since dormant thread in the “General” forum. That thread asked a question about supposed historical contradictions in the Book of Judith and how that might bring either its canonicity or inspiration into question. Go here to see that thread.

My admittedly short response read as follows:

*"Biblical inerrancy is related to matters on faith and morals. Unless the supposed historical error in question is a hinge for a question on faith and morals, it should not bring into question whether or not it is inspired.

In any case, the question of the canon will always boil down to the question of authority."*

Another member of the forum responded by quoting from Pius XII’s encyclical Divino afflante spiritu in which he quotes from an earlier encyclical of Leo XIII. In short, the excerpt seems to condemn those who would restrict the truth of the scriptures to matters of faith and morals only. The quote in the post is rather long, so go here to read it.

I did not respond to that post because I was not sure what to say. No one else responded to it either.

I feel that this exchange relates to this current thread and would be interested to read anyone’s comment on it.
 
My post got deleted somehow, and I’m not sure why, I’ll try to repost this in case it was a mistake.
Karl Keating:
Evangelicals and Fundamentalists commonly say the Bible is infallible. I wish they’d stop. It’s a misconstrual of the word.
Click to expand...
Fair enough, It seems that inerrant is a better term, anyway.

Now singling out “Evangelicals and Fundamentalists” is a tad unfair don’t you think?

“Mr. White and I both accept as the inspired, infallible, inerrant Word of God. We agree on that.”
–Gerry Matatics, when employed by Catholic Answers, in a debate on Sola Scriptura
aomin.org/Mata25.html

“That to me is not an infallible source of authority, Mr. White, the Bible is.”
–Patrick Madrid, when employed by Catholic Answers, in a debate on Sola Scriptura
aomin.org/SANTRAN.html

If the term is misused, its misused by people of all denominations, Roman Catholic or otherwise.
(Postscript: Some might say, of the Bible, that the book itself is not infallible but that the term is properly used of the Bible because the devout reading of it makes the reader infallibly choose the right understanding of the text. The simple disproof of this is that there are more than 30,000 disparate Protestant denominations.)
Click to expand...
And with his keyboard still warm from chastising Protestants for misusing a term, he trots out the ol’ 30,000 denominations argument. :tsktsk:

Mr. Keating, with all due respect, this argument has been proven again and again to be fallacious and I’m surprised its still being used. Especially by a man with your knowledge and experience. In the spirit of intellectual integrity will you call upon your listeners to stop using the argument?

ntrmin.org/30000denominations.htm
ntrmin.org/30000denominationsrevisited.htm

God bless,
c0ach
 
40.png
c0achmcguirk:
My post got deleted somehow, and I’m not sure why, I’ll try to repost this in case it was a mistake.

Fair enough, It seems that inerrant is a better term, anyway.

Now singling out “Evangelicals and Fundamentalists” is a tad unfair don’t you think?

“Mr. White and I both accept as the inspired, infallible, inerrant Word of God. We agree on that.”
–Gerry Matatics, when employed by Catholic Answers, in a debate on Sola Scriptura
aomin.org/Mata25.html

“That to me is not an infallible source of authority, Mr. White, the Bible is.”
–Patrick Madrid, when employed by Catholic Answers, in a debate on Sola Scriptura
aomin.org/SANTRAN.html

If the term is misused, its misused by people of all denominations, Roman Catholic or otherwise.

And with his keyboard still warm from chastising Protestants for misusing a term, he trots out the ol’ 30,000 denominations argument. :tsktsk:

Mr. Keating, with all due respect, this argument has been proven again and again to be fallacious and I’m surprised its still being used. Especially by a man with your knowledge and experience. In the spirit of intellectual integrity will you call upon your listeners to stop using the argument?

ntrmin.org/30000denominations.htm
ntrmin.org/30000denominationsrevisited.htm

God bless,
c0ach
Click to expand...
I tried to count them, but it was going to take too long…

Joao
 
JoaoMachado said:
I tried to count them, but it was going to take too long…

Joao
Click to expand...

Thanks for proving my point Jaoa! 👍

Seems like much less than 30000, doesn’t it? 🙂

I counted them, it’s 390 in that list. This includes non-Protestant churches like Buddhism, Universal Religion, Yoga, Jehovah’s Witness, Self-REalization, Scientology, Sikh, Sufi, Latter-day-Saints, Krishna, Byzantine, and more.

Also note the Catholic “denominations” in the list, if that is a list of denominations:

Churches-Catholic-American (49)
Churches-Catholic-Byzantine (48)
Churches-Catholic-Evangelical (4)
Churches-Catholic-Mexican (12)
Churches-Catholic-Old (6)
Churches-Catholic-Roman (1962)
Churches-Catholic-Traditional (66)
Churches-Catholic, Church Of God (18)
Churches-Catholic, Ecumenical (2)
Churches-Catholic, Latin Rite (9)

What did you think of the two articles I posted about the 30,000 denominations?

God bless,
c0ach
 
40.png
c0achmcguirk:
Thanks for proving my point Jaoa! 👍

Seems like much less than 30000, doesn’t it? 🙂

I counted them, it’s 390 in that list. This includes non-Protestant churches like Buddhism, Universal Religion, Yoga, Jehovah’s Witness, Self-REalization, Scientology, Sikh, Sufi, Latter-day-Saints, Krishna, Byzantine, and more.

Also note the Catholic “denominations” in the list, if that is a list of denominations:

Churches-Catholic-American (49)
Churches-Catholic-Byzantine (48)
Churches-Catholic-Evangelical (4)
Churches-Catholic-Mexican (12)
Churches-Catholic-Old (6)
Churches-Catholic-Roman (1962)
Churches-Catholic-Traditional (66)
Churches-Catholic, Church Of God (18)
Churches-Catholic, Ecumenical (2)
Churches-Catholic, Latin Rite (9)

What did you think of the two articles I posted about the 30,000 denominations?

God bless,
c0ach
Click to expand...
OK Tough guy 😃 (That’s JOAO) OK, my brother, now tell me how many of those are in communion with the Bishop Of Rome?

As for the 30,000 denominations, I AM STILL READING IT!!:crying:

Your brother Joao,
 
c0achmcguirk said:
\What did you think of the two articles I posted about the 30,000 denominations?

God bless,
c0ach
Click to expand...

12, 287, 12000, 33000 does it matter?

IMO Jesus wouldn’t be happy with any more than one, and there is a difference between rites and denominations. There are different Catholic rites that are still in communion with Rome.
 
And yet, there are two presbyterian churches in my neighborhood (which are right across the street from one another; it’s kind of amusing) that preach two completely different things. Would you count those as one denomination or two? If they don’t believe the same thing, are they really both in agreement, and thus considered one denomination? I think not.
 
RJS said:
12, 287, 12000, 33000 does it matter?

IMO Jesus wouldn’t be happy with any more than one, and there is a difference between rites and denominations. There are different Catholic rites that are still in communion with Rome.
Click to expand...

Someone tell me what “IMO” means>…:banghead:

Joao
 
IMO: “In my opinion”. For more, see the acronym dictionary.

I think the number of denominations does matter. Knowing how many there really are kind of proves that Biblical interpretation is not a science by any means. It leads directly into the argument on authority.
 
coach, if I may quote from your site:
As we have shown, the larger figures mentioned earlier (8,196 Protestant denominations and perhaps as many as 8,000 Roman Catholic denominations) are based on jurisdiction rather than differing beliefs and practice. Obviously, neither of those figures represents a true denominational distinction. Hence, Barrett’s broader category (which we have labeled true denominations) of twenty-one Protestant denominations and sixteen Roman Catholic denominations represents a much more realistic calculation.
“jurisdiction rather than differing beliefs”? coach, coach, we are not talking cities or counties, we are talking Faith, the foundational beliefs are the difference in denominations.

The Catholic Church is not just a US Church, it is a world wide Church. All the different peoples from different countries worshiping the same GOD the same Savior as one body, the BODY of Christ. It is not separated by property lines…

Joao
Click to expand...
 
Interesting how these thread topics go off on tangents. . . .

A denomination, btw, is a sect that has been given a name (denominate means to designate or give a name to.) When Luther broke from Rome in 1517 (on Halloween of all days!?) he gave his new sect a name which was not Catholic. By the year 1600 there were over 160 different denominations that had broken apart and away from Rome. IMHO, it is human arrogance, obstinacy and ignorance that leads people away from the Catholic Church. One of Our Lord’s final prayers before his arrest was for us–his followers, to be as one–as He and the Father are one. How else are we to be as one except united in Him in the Eucharist (which sadly no Protestant Church has) where we unite our minds (on doctrine), our hearts (in prayer), and our souls (by the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist).

We continue to divide ourselves politically, socially, and religiously. And, at what cost? Look at the world we live in. If we could just unite all Christians together, imagine the power we would have to change the face of the earth.

In the meantime Muslims, atheists, etc. will continue to expand their numbers around the globe–numbers we could and should be adding to our ranks. So the end result of all denominations is continued divisions no matter how you look at it.
 
40.png
c0achmcguirk:
Thanks for proving my point Jaoa! 👍

Seems like much less than 30000, doesn’t it? 🙂

I counted them, it’s 390 in that list. This includes non-Protestant churches like Buddhism, Universal Religion, Yoga, Jehovah’s Witness, Self-REalization, Scientology, Sikh, Sufi, Latter-day-Saints, Krishna, Byzantine, and more.

Also note the Catholic “denominations” in the list, if that is a list of denominations:

Churches-Catholic-American (49)
Churches-Catholic-Byzantine (48)
Churches-Catholic-Evangelical (4)
Churches-Catholic-Mexican (12)
Churches-Catholic-Old (6)
Churches-Catholic-Roman (1962)
Churches-Catholic-Traditional (66)
Churches-Catholic, Church Of God (18)
Churches-Catholic, Ecumenical (2)
Churches-Catholic, Latin Rite (9)

What did you think of the two articles I posted about the 30,000 denominations?

God bless,
c0ach
Click to expand...
Please now lets not forget all of the non-denominational churches. Each one is a seperate denomination and believe something different, even though they claim not to be a denomination. We have probably at least 10 of them in Green Bay alone. I have been to quite a few of them and most are not in agreement with the others. So no 30,000 doesn’t seem like to much.
 
40.png
Charash:
Interesting how these thread topics go off on tangents. . . .

A denomination, btw, is a sect that has been given a name (denominate means to designate or give a name to.) When Luther broke from Rome in 1517 (on Halloween of all days!?) he gave his new sect a name which was not Catholic. By the year 1600 there were over 160 different denominations that had broken apart and away from Rome.
Click to expand...
I could be wrong, it won’t be the first time, but I remember reading somewhere that there were 80 different denominations by 1600.
 
Humility is its own reward (I just made that up so its not inerrant) but I want to reward your public apology to mango_2003. Rep. points on their way. God bless you.
 
RJS said:
12, 287, 12000, 33000 does it matter?
Click to expand...

Yes, a fallacious argument is a fallacious argument. You may say “many” denominations, but you may not use a number that lies.
IMO Jesus wouldn’t be happy with any more than one, and there is a difference between rites and denominations. There are different Catholic rites that are still in communion with Rome.
Click to expand...
How can there be different rites? Is Jesus happy about the different rites–I mean shouldn’t there be ONE rite? Are all the rites equally right?

God bless,
c0ach
 
40.png
Sanosuke:
And yet, there are two presbyterian churches in my neighborhood (which are right across the street from one another; it’s kind of amusing) that preach two completely different things. Would you count those as one denomination or two? If they don’t believe the same thing, are they really both in agreement, and thus considered one denomination? I think not.
Click to expand...
Do all Catholic Churches teach the same exact thing on every single issue?

If minor differences between churches (like music style, for example) create different denominations (as Barrett believes in the 30,000 denominations source)–can I then say that the different rites are different denominations?

Or would you be gracious enough to admit that there are very few meaningful denomations–probably no more than 15 or 20. After that its all minor quibbles over things like whether or not drums should be allowed in church.

God bless,
c0ach
 
Regarding the denomination thing, IMHO it is reasonable to count as a different denomination any and all Christian churches which teach doctrines that are not in agreement with other Christian churches.

For example, in my town there are several Churches of Christ. Three of these do not believe in using any instruments during worship as a theological matter. I consider them to be a different denomination that the COCs which DO use instruments, not because it allows me to “up” the number of Protestant denominations but because those very churches consider themselves to be different denominations.

When counting denominations, it is difficult to find an exact number, :confused: especially if you take into account the many “one church” denominations like the currently popular Dallas TX church “Potters House.” Are they Baptist? They say no. What about Robert Tilton’s now defunct infamous money making church. What denomination was he? Prosperity Gospel?

30,000 is probably a LOW number when you include all those little churches. But the number is not what really matters. What matters is the lack of unity, the divisions. How we must break God’s heart with our fighting.

As for Catholics, there are not different denominations within our Faith, only different rites. 😃
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top