"The Bible will keep you from sin, or sin will keep you from the Bible"

[LegoGE1947]

And how did people accomplish this before there was a Bible and most of society could not read?

By the word of God being spoken and also older churches and cathedrals had the Bible stories illustrated on their stained-glass windows and other iconography. It was oral tradition for the most part. To alot of modern-day evangelicals and fundamentalists the word “TRADITION” is almost tantamount to cussing!

 

[exnihilo]

I have a soft spot for church signs. Of course no short sentence is going to capture the full truth of God, but neither will thousands of sentences. What keeps you from sin is God’s grace and your cooperation, through acts of the will, with that grace. But that doesn’t fit onto a sign very well. I think sin can keep you from the Bible because people in sin often dont want to be exposed to the Word of God which convicts them of sin. Yes there is a danger in personifying the Bible. I’d be more troubled if this was all one ever heard. So long as it is an introduction to fuller truth or a quick reminder for those who have a solid faith I’m not terribly worried about signs like this.

 

[LegoGE1947]

I have a soft spot for church signs. Of course no short sentence is going to capture the full truth of God, but neither will thousands of sentences. What keeps you from sin is God’s grace and your cooperation, through acts of the will, with that grace. But that doesn’t fit onto a sign very well. I think sin can keep you from the Bible because people in sin often dont want to be exposed to the Word of God which convicts them of sin. Yes there is a danger in personifying the Bible. I’d be more troubled if this was all one ever heard. So long as it is an introduction to fuller truth or a quick reminder for those who have a solid faith I’m not terribly worried about signs like this.

Wouldn’t it be a “trip” if churches had signs as big if not bigger than their buildings so they could fully explain what they place on the signs?

 

[TimothyH]

Would that Catholics had the same zeal for the written word of God that Evangelicals seem to have. I would love to see Catholics venerate the written word of God in their personal lives the same way we do at Mass, giving it pride of place in their day to day routine in the same way we carry it at the front of the procession, kissing it after reading it, and enthroning it in a prominent place in their home.

If Catholics had the same love for scripture that some Evangelicals seem to have, we would be unstoppable.

***For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. *(Hebrews 4:12)

Reading scripture is a powerful weapon, especially for those who unite it with the sacraments.

When the Evangelical Churches collapse some day, all their members who run to the Catholic Church are going to bring great gifts with them. One of those gifts they will lay at the foot of the Chair of Peter is a great love for scripture.

-Tim-

 

[504Katrin]

Yeah, that’s why I said it was poorly worded. I guess one would have to ask the pastor of that particular church. If his claim is that he’s talking about the physical book, that would be a strange (to me) understanding of the role of scripture. It isn’t like garlic and a vampire, lol.

Jon

lol.

would be nice though. As much as I study scripures at the moment, I would be free of sin constantly

 

[SteveVH]

I read the Bible daily and still sin. So does everyone else who reads the Bible. It is an objective truth that the Bible does not stop us from sinning. It certainly helps lead us away from sin but those who claim that they are no longer sinners have just committed the sin of lying.

 

[po18guy]

Would that Catholics had the same zeal for the written word of God that Evangelicals seem to have. I would love to see Catholics venerate the written word of God in their personal lives the same way we do at Mass, giving it pride of place in their day to day routine in the same way we carry it at the front of the procession, kissing it after reading it, and enthroning it in a prominent place in their home.

If Catholics had the same love for scripture that some Evangelicals seem to have, we would be unstoppable.

***For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. ***(Hebrews 4:12)

Reading scripture is a powerful weapon, especially for those who unite it with the sacraments.

When the Evangelical Churches collapse some day, all their members who run to the Catholic Church are going to bring great gifts with them. One of those gifts they will lay at the foot of the Chair of Peter is a great love for scripture.

-Tim-

Paradoxically, evangelicals agree with Saint Jerome on scripture - Jerome being famously quoted as stating that “Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ” - yet both reject the Deuterocanonical books, of which 1 & 2 Maccabees, with their focus on the resurrection and eternal life, inerrantly point to Christ. An odd thing, that.

 

[Contarini]

Saw this on fundamentalist church sign.
True or no?

True as a generalization about the tendency in both cases. Not true as a statement without exceptions.

The same is true, of course, of the Sacraments!

People can receive the sacraments over and over without abandoning their sins. But the tendency of frequent reception is to make people, at the very least, uncomfortable in their sins. And the tendency of sin is to dispose a person not to receive the sacraments.

This is true, surely, of all means of grace.

Edwin

 

[buzzoff1031]

lol.

would be nice though. As much as I study scripures at the moment, I would be free of sin constantly

Yep.

 

[LegoGE1947]

Yep.

Wouldn’t we all!

 

[BrianGular]

And how did people accomplish this before there was a Bible and most of society could not read?

Through the corporate reading of the gospels and the letters written by the apostles. Those who could read and write copied and read aloud the books we now know as the Bible. We often take for granted the blessing we have of a proliferation of printed copies of the scriptures. Note: I have heard it said that the members of the underground church in China will carefully take apart their Bibles because they are so scarce. “You take Ephesians this week and I will keep Phillipians.” I imagine that the church of the first several centuries valued the scriptures in a way much like our Chinese brothers and sisters do–with the care afforded a precious resource.

 

[po18guy]

Through the corporate reading of the gospels and the letters written by the apostles. Those who could read and write copied and read aloud the books we now know as the Bible. We often take for granted the blessing we have of a proliferation of printed copies of the scriptures. Note: I have heard it said that the members of the underground church in China will carefully take apart their Bibles because they are so scarce. “You take Ephesians this week and I will keep Phillipians.” I imagine that the church of the first several centuries valued the scriptures in a way much like our Chinese brothers and sisters do–with the care afforded a precious resource.

What? We are talking here about the time before there was ANY New Testament scriptures at all. The time when Paul preached orally, via the Apostolic Tradition, to the Bereans. No bible. Just Apostles.

Paul had no sacred scrolls with him on his journeys. No writing whatsoever. What copies of scrolls he may have read from were found in the scattered synagogues along his journey.

He used spoken words, like your pastor does.

No bible.

The bible is the most wonderful document on earth - but our faith does not absolutely require it.

Bible + Oral Apostolic authority. NOW you are talking.

 

[TimothyH]

Paradoxically, evangelicals agree with Saint Jerome on scripture - Jerome being famously quoted as stating that “Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ” - yet both reject the Deuterocanonical books, of which 1 & 2 Maccabees, with their focus on the resurrection and eternal life, inerrantly point to Christ. An odd thing, that.

Don’t forget the many references to elements changing places and substances which displayed the physical properties of different substances - transubstantiation - in the book of Wisdom.

For thy sustenance manifested thy sweetness
toward thy children;
and the bread, ministering to the desire of
the one who took it,
was changed to suit every one’s liking.
Snow and ice withstood fire without melting,
so that they might know that the crops of their enemies
were being destroyed by the fire that blazed in the hail
and flashed in the showers of rain;
whereas the fire, in order that the righteous might be fed,
even forgot its native power.
(Wisdom 16:21-23)

For the elements changed places with one another,
as on a harp the notes vary the nature of the rhythm,
while each note remains the same.
This may be clearly inferred from the sight of what took place.
For land animals were transformed into water creatures,
and creatures that swim moved over to the land.
Fire even in water retained its normal power,
and water forgot its fire-quenching nature.
Flames, on the contrary, failed to consume
the flesh of perishable creatures that walked among them,
nor did they melt the crystalline, easily melted
kind of heavenly food.
(Wisdom 19:18-21)

Heavenly food, bread which ministers to the desire of one who takes it, and the righteous being fed - Catholics understand these things almost instinctively.

-Tim-

 

[PJM]

=JustaServant;9568886]Saw this on fundamentalist church sign.
True or no?

At BEST it is ONLY “wishful thinking”

Neither statement is fully accurate,

 

[po18guy]

Don’t forget the many references to elements changing places and substances which displayed the physical properties of different substances - transubstantiation - in the book of Wisdom.

For thy sustenance manifested thy sweetness
toward thy children;
and the bread, ministering to the desire of
the one who took it,
was changed to suit every one’s liking.
Snow and ice withstood fire without melting,
so that they might know that the crops of their enemies
were being destroyed by the fire that blazed in the hail
and flashed in the showers of rain;
whereas the fire, in order that the righteous might be fed,
even forgot its native power.
(Wisdom 16:21-23)

For the elements changed places with one another,
as on a harp the notes vary the nature of the rhythm,
while each note remains the same.
This may be clearly inferred from the sight of what took place.
For land animals were transformed into water creatures,
and creatures that swim moved over to the land.
Fire even in water retained its normal power,
and water forgot its fire-quenching nature.
Flames, on the contrary, failed to consume
the flesh of perishable creatures that walked among them,
nor did they melt the crystalline, easily melted
kind of heavenly food.
(Wisdom 19:18-21)

Heavenly food, bread which ministers to the desire of one who takes it, and the righteous being fed - Catholics understand these things almost instinctively.

-Tim-

Except there is no Wisdom in protestant bibles.

 

[po18guy]

OK, this thread has forced me to unearth my “harvest gold” 1975 “The Open Bible” (KJV paraphrase - Thomas Nelson Publishers) in all of its disco-era glory.

From the preface:

"According to Dr. Wilber M. Smith,

1. The Bible discovers and convicts us of sin.
2. The Bible helps cleanse us from the pollutions of sin.
3. The Bible imparts strength.
4. The Bible instructs us in what we are to do.
5. The Bible provides us with a sword for victory over sin.
6. The Bible makes our lives fruitful.
7. The Bible gives us power to pray."

Notice that much the same can be said of the Holy Eucharist. I maintain that, nature abhorring a vacuum, the bible has been elevated by man into the place formerly held by the Eucharist - since it has been banished from much of the protestant world. Example: at the Presbyterian community in town, there is no altar. There is only a large stand with a huge bible on it - front and center. I find this to be rather sad.

 

[LegoGE1947]

OK, this thread has forced me to unearth my “harvest gold” 1975 “The Open Bible” (KJV paraphrase - Thomas Nelson Publishers) in all of its disco-era glory.

From the preface:

"According to Dr. Wilber M. Smith,

1. The Bible discovers and convicts us of sin.
2. The Bible helps cleanse us from the pollutions of sin.
3. The Bible imparts strength.
4. The Bible instructs us in what we are to do.
5. The Bible provides us with a sword for victory over sin.
6. The Bible makes our lives fruitful.
7. The Bible gives us power to pray."

Notice that much the same can be said of the Holy Eucharist. I maintain that, nature abhorring a vacuum, the bible has been elevated by man into the place formerly held by the Eucharist - since it has been banished from much of the protestant world. Example: at the Presbyterian community in town, there is no altar. There is only a large stand with a huge bible on it - front and center. I find this to be rather sad.

It would seem “harvest gold” was a popular color for just about everything in the 1970s. We had several appliances from the 70s that were that color. They have since all been retired. This is the first time I’ve ever heard of a Bible in that color though!

 

[Missprisc]

I was looking up this quote to verify that it came from Dwight L. Moody and found this forum. I put this quote in every Bible that I give as a gift. The thought behind the quote is that if one READS it - God’s living word - you will be transformed into the likeness of Christ and sin - less (not sinless-we are imperfect unlike Christ who WAS sinless). When one is a Christian (or Christ follower) one wants to be like Him. Where else to find the answer to all life’s questions and how to live life, but from the Owner’s Manual - The Bible. Contrast this with the one who lives in sin - he will not want to read it and be convicted.

2 Timothy 3:14-17 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, (15) and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. (16) All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Thank you and God Bless!

 

[LegoGE1947]

I was looking up this quote to verify that it came from Dwight L. Moody and found this forum. I put this quote in every Bible that I give as a gift. The thought behind the quote is that if one READS it - God’s living word - you will be transformed into the likeness of Christ and sin - less (not sinless-we are imperfect unlike Christ who WAS sinless). When one is a Christian (or Christ follower) one wants to be like Him. Where else to find the answer to all life’s questions and how to live life, but from the Owner’s Manual - The Bible. Contrast this with the one who lives in sin - he will not want to read it and be convicted.

2 Timothy 3:14-17 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, (15) and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. (16) All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Thank you and God Bless!

Notice that the Bible is USEFUL but not all-sufficient for teaching, etc. One has to have someone to interpret it just like the Ethiopian in Acts. He could read Isaiah for himself but he couldn’t understand it until Phillip came and explained it to him that what he was reading referred to Jesus.

 

[SteveVH]

Where else to find the answer to all life’s questions and how to live life, but from the Owner’s Manual - The Bible. Contrast this with the one who lives in sin - he will not want to read it and be convicted.

Well, have you ever read an owner’s manuel and had to ask someone for help in understanding exactly what it is saying? Sorry, the Bible is not an owners manual, however. Where you find the answers to all of life’s questions is in the Church. The Church preceded the Bible and decided, based upon the truth it already possessed from the Apostles, which texts were inspired and which were not. Over 400 texts were considered in canonizing the Bible. Their inclusion in the canon was dependent upon how they measured up against the truth already held. The Church was not reliant upon the Bible for the truth it possesses, but rather on the teachings of the Apostles, part of which was committed to writing and called the New Testament. It was never meant to include all that we need because the Church never anticipated anyone relying solely upon it for their faith. That is the invention of man.

2 Timothy 3:14-17 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, (15) and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. (16) All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

You are aware, are you not, that when Paul wrote this he could have only been referring to the Old Testatment since the New Testament had not yet been written nor canonized. So if it says anything it says too much; that the New Testament is not necessary.

But look at what it does actually say. Yes, all scripture is God-breathed. But how do we know what is Scripture and what is not? How were the sacred texts that make up the New Testament chosen and the other writings declined. Who decided, “this and no more”?

And yes, we would agree that Scripture is “useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness”. This does not say that Scripture is all we need, but rather that is is useful. You had better ask yourself why Christ started a Church and didn’t just hand out books to everyone and say good luck. It is the Church that is the foundation and pillar of truth and the authentic interpreter of the sacred texts that it chose to make up the New Testament.