The Bishops and Music

[benedictgal]

Taken out of context?

The document is very clear and is only taken out of context in your mind, because you don’t agree with it.

Rome knows that one shoe doesn’t fit all. People in Asian parishes are going to have a different taste in liturgical music
than a parish in Austin Texas. The document specifies the Bishop as the the authority to determine the norms that are proper for “human understanding,” in their situation.

Mandating that a Parish in Japan, use Gregorian Chant, would be foolish, just as it would be foolish to mandated it in every parish in the United States. Gregorian Chant is suited, means, you can’t go wrong with it, but it doesn’t exclude, other styles of sacred music.

Jim

Jim, that quote doesn’t even make sense. You are so very narrow in your love for things modern and youir apparent distaste and disdain for Tradition that you don’t even think that parishes in other countries could sing Gregorian Chant. Oddly enough, I remember Cardinal Arinze saying that in his old stomping ground (Africa), the faithful were chanting the Gloria and Credo in Latin.

Last year, during the Our Lady of Guadalupe Mass (broadcast live form the basilica in Mexico), the choir also chanted the Gloria and Credo in Latin. Just because things are messed up in the United States, that doesn’t mean that the rest of the world is just as loony.

 

[Wolseley]

One of the best masses I was at was at a downtown Minneapolis parish using songs in English, French, and some African language, all in a daily mass of all things. The pronunciation was on the projectors off to the sides.

Let me guess: St. Joan of Arc?

I’m afraid I would have walked out. In addition to the too-close similarity to some Protestant McMega-church, the idea that people have to take their minds off focusing on God to look at screens to try to figure out how to pronounce lyrics in Yoruba is too much.

JimR-OCDS:

Mandating that a Parish in Japan, use Gregorian Chant, would be foolish, just as it would be foolish to mandated it in every parish in the United States.

Maybe it would be more appropriate to make them use French and “some African language”—especially if the pronunciation is flashed on the walls with projectors.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Jim, that quote doesn’t even make sense. You are so very narrow in your love for things modern and youir apparent distaste and disdain for Tradition that you don’t even think that parishes in other countries could sing Gregorian Chant.

Once again you make sweeping judgements on what I think and what I like or dislike.

I never said anything to support your accusations.

Jim

 

[MrS]

Odd that this problem didn’t seem to exist for 400 years before Vatican II…

Also odd that the current “norms” made our Protestant brethren happy… and then the “horizontal” Catholics jumped on the wagon too.

Cardinal Arinze has already declared that “horizontal” liturgy is wrong to the point of heresy. The liturgy is meant to be vertical. God is the focal point, not the neighbor in the pew or the choir loft.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Odd that this problem didn’t seem to exist for 400 years before Vatican II…

Right, everything was beautiful. People went to Mass and all were reverent and contemplative.

There was no need for Pope John XXIII to call Vatican II together.

He did it, because he knew it would upset neo-Catholics and make protestants happy.

Jim

 

[Wolseley]

Right, everything was beautiful. People went to Mass and all were reverent and contemplative.

There was no need for Pope John XXIII to call Vatican II together.

He did it, because he knew it would upset neo-Catholics and make protestants happy.

Jim

Now who’s putting words in somebody else’s mouth?

 

[Brendan]

Right, everything was beautiful. People went to Mass and all were reverent and contemplative.

There was no need for Pope John XXIII to call Vatican II together.

He did it, because he knew it would upset neo-Catholics and make protestants happy.

Jim

And Vatican II was so sucessful that Pope Paul VI even commanded the Congregation for Divine Worship in 1974 to issue a document ( Jubilate Deo) that provided plainchant songs that Pope Paul said that every Catholic should know. He personally sent a copy of this directive to every bishop in the world.

You, Jim, being I presume, a good Catholic, has taken Pope Paul’s command to heart and have memorized the chant provided.

Here are some nice (and free) mp3’s of some of the music that Pope Paul had published to go along with the Mass he promulgated.

Kyrie
Gloria
Credo
Sanctus

Pope John Paul II instructed the CDW to re-issue this document in 1987, which it did.

Despite the instructions from two Popes, about the only one that a large number of the faithful have been taught is the Agnus Dei.

 

[benedictgal]

Right, everything was beautiful. People went to Mass and all were reverent and contemplative.

There was no need for Pope John XXIII to call Vatican II together.

He did it, because he knew it would upset neo-Catholics and make protestants happy.

Jim

You are sooo wrong. As Pope Benedict XVI noted, the liturgy wasn’t even in the sights of Vatican II. In fact, during the council, they celebrated the TLM. Good Pope John didn’t even have that on his agenda. That came towards the end of the council.

Sometimes I wonder if you really are Catholic.

 

[anamchara]

Once again you make sweeping judgements on what I think and what I like or dislike.

I never said anything to support your accusations.

Jim

I noticed this and it’s getting really frustrating trying to read through a thread and I keep running across the sweeping judgments. It is getting OLD!

I love GC, very much but I also love the more folk music in our parish. The thing is, if the music is in the missal and it’s been approved then why all the constant debate over it? When my husband plays (guitar) and has to prepare music he uses what is allowed. Is our whole parish going against Rome doing that? Or our whole diocese for that matter?

Reading certain posts one would think we are not Catholic enough if we pick up the guitar and sing along or heaven for bid, smile and clap our hands oh the horrors.

 

[Digitonomy]

Oddly enough, I remember Cardinal Arinze saying that in his old stomping ground (Africa), the faithful were chanting the Gloria and Credo in Latin.

In comparing Catholics in Africa to those in Asia, it’s worth mentioning that Africans are likely to be somewhat more comfortable with Latin, since the official language in most parts of Africa is either English or a Romance language.

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

Let me guess: St. Joan of Arc?

I’m afraid I would have walked out. In addition to the too-close similarity to some Protestant McMega-church, the idea that people have to take their minds off focusing on God to look at screens to try to figure out how to pronounce lyrics in Yoruba is too much.

Actually, not it was not St Joan of Arc, it was a different parish. To walk out is your personal preference. There were people there from more modern to traditional (e.g. women with head coverings) there, and they all enjoyed the mass. The different various vernacular languages added to the spirituality of the daily mass that I saw. After the song, the lyrics went away and it is like they are never there.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Now who’s putting words in somebody else’s mouth?

I’m not putting anything into anyone’s mouth, which is why I added and

I was being sacrastic.

Unlike saying, you Wolseley, hate anything modern or you think this way or that way. This would be putting words into your mouth, and telling you what you think. I did not do this.

Jim

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

I noticed this and it’s getting really frustrating trying to read through a thread and I keep running across the sweeping judgments. It is getting OLD!

I love GC, very much but I also love the more folk music in our parish. The thing is, if the music is in the missal and it’s been approved then why all the constant debate over it? When my husband plays (guitar) and has to prepare music he uses what is allowed. Is our whole parish going against Rome doing that? Or our whole diocese for that matter?

Reading certain posts one would think we are not Catholic enough if we pick up the guitar and sing along or heaven for bid, smile and clap our hands oh the horrors.

I also enjoy GC, and it is not going away (or is there any mass movement to get rid of it) (some of my favorites come from the monks at St. John’s University, beautiful but difficult for the average parish to do, it is a very local thing).

We of course have a broad and diverse Church and the diversity strengthens the Church and does not make it any less “Catholic”.

 

[Brendan]

FYI, here is the preface to Jubilate Deo, send to the bishops by both Pope Paul VI and Pope John Paul II

Does anyone disagree with this

Eminence, Excellency,

Our congregation has prepared a booklet entitled, “Jubilate Deo”, which contains a minimum selection of sacred chants. This was done in response to a desire which the Holy Father had frequently expressed, that all the faithful should know at least some Latin Gregorian chants, such as, for example, the “Gloria”, the “Credo”, the “Sanctus”, and the “Agnus Dei”.

It gives me great pleasure to send you a copy of it, as a personal gift from His Holiness, Pope Paul VI. May I take this opportunity of recommending to your pastoral solicitude this new initiative, whose purpose is to facilitate the observance of the recommendation of the Second Vatican Council "…steps must be taken to ensure that the faithful are able to chant together in Latin those parts of the ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.

In effect, when the faithful gather together for prayer they manifest at once the diversity of a people drawn "from every tribe, language and nation (Ap. 5:9) and its unity in faith and charity. Their diversity is manifested in the present multiplicity of liturgical languages and in the vernacular chants which, in the context of one shared faith, give expression to each people’s religious sentiment in music drawn from its culture and traditions. On the other hand, their unity finds particularly apt and even sensible expression through the use of Latin Gregorian chant.

Down the centuries, Gregorian chant has accompanied liturgical celebrations in the Roman rite, has nourished men’s faith and has fostered their piety, while in the process achieving an artistic perfection which the Church rightly considers a patrimony of inestimable value and which the Council recognized as “the chant especially suited to the Roman liturgy.”

One of the objectives of the liturgical reform is to promote community singing in assemblies of the faithful, so that they might the better express the festive, communal and fraternal character of liturgical celebrations. In effect, “the liturgical action becomes more dignified when it is accompanied by chant, when each minister fulfills his own role and the faithful also take part.”

Those who are charged with responsibility for the liturgical reform are particularly anxious to achieve this difficult objective. To that end, the Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship appeals once again, as they have often done in the past, for the proper development of singing by the faithful.

 

[anamchara]

I also enjoy GC, and it is not going away (or is there any mass movement to get rid of it) (some of my favorites come from the monks at St. John’s University, beautiful but difficult for the average parish to do, it is a very local thing).

** We of course have a broad and diverse Church and the diversity strengthens the Church and does not make it any less “Catholic”**.

This is what I’ve always thought. I would fully support it if our parish wanted to add a GC in one of our Masses. At this point we are just trying to build our Church. We worship in what will be the multi-purpose room and Gym for the school. This parish built the school first before the Church.

Anyway, from what I understand it takes a great deal of skill to sing GC. Even a decent singer would probably struggle I bit, no? Then there’s learning Latin. If a parish decided to add it, they would really have to work hard in first finding the voices to pull it off.

I’m not saying a parish can’t try but I think in most parishes this would not be an easy task.

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

This is what I’ve always thought. I would fully support it if our parish wanted to add a GC in one of our Masses. At this point we are just trying to build our Church. We worship in what will be the multi-purpose room and Gym for the school. This parish built the school first before the Church.

Anyway, from what I understand it takes a great deal of skill to sing GC. Even a decent singer would probably struggle I bit, no? Then there’s learning Latin. If a parish decided to add it, they would really have to work hard in first finding the voices to pull it off.

I’m not saying a parish can’t try but I think in most parishes this would not be an easy task.

Short chants like the MP3s linked at the top of this page are easy to do, benedictgirl also referenced a few other easy ones, so some can be done. Yet they are just a small part of the entire music library available. The chants at the top of the page are usually scheduled for during Lent, but it changes for the rest of the year.

The more orchestral-level pieces are very challenging and it is better to do a easier piece of a different music genre than to hear a sub-par version of it, no matter how hard the music minister is trying, you are correct some could pull it off but most would have a mighty struggle.

I like GC as an option but it is ultimately up to the local parish on if it can be done or if it even fits with the demographics and history of the parish itself, as that varies widely across the US and the world.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

This is what I’ve always thought. I would fully support it if our parish wanted to add a GC in one of our Masses. At this point we are just trying to build our Church. We worship in what will be the multi-purpose room and Gym for the school. This parish built the school first before the Church.

Anyway, from what I understand it takes a great deal of skill to sing GC. Even a decent singer would probably struggle I bit, no? Then there’s learning Latin. If a parish decided to add it, they would really have to work hard in first finding the voices to pull it off.

I’m not saying a parish can’t try but I think in most parishes this would not be an easy task.

Gregorian Chant actually doesn’t take a lot of skill as a singer. In fact, musically, its probably easier to sing for non-singers, than other forms of music.

The difference with GC is the Latin and the notation, which takes some learning. Also, how the words are pronounced is important.

The Benedictine Monastery that I attend on occasion, the nuns and monks sing GC. They’re not singers by even a close definition of the word. However, part of their rule of life in their monastery, is to study and learn Latin. It sounds nice.

Jim

 

[Brendan]

Anyway, from what I understand it takes a great deal of skill to sing GC. Even a decent singer would probably struggle I bit, no? Then there’s learning Latin. If a parish decided to add it, they would really have to work hard in first finding the voices to pull it off. .

Actually, chant is designed to be easy to learn. Remember, its not a song, its a tone. We’re not talking Polyphonic chant here (which is barely chant anyway) but plainchant ( see the links of the music that Pope Paul sent out) in my post above

Pope Pius X reinstuted chant because Church music was becoming very operatic and the re-institution of chant was to

It’s designed so that entire texts ( Readings, Gospels, Psalms) can be chanted in their entirety. That’s what the Eastern Catholics do. Their entire Mass is chanted using the same 12 tones. ( One other point, chant actually comes to us from the Jews, this was the music that Jews chanted the Psalms to)

I’ve got a CD of Pope John Paul chanting the Rosary. I wouldn’t exactly call him a stellar voice, but he pulls it off nicely,

Go to a parish where they use the plainchant Agnus Dei. It’s the closest we have to actually obeying Pope Pauls desire in this matter. You will see how simple it is, and it sung in a range that both men and women can particpate in.

The only people that I ever heard describe chant as being hard are musicians. Chant uses a different notation than modern music. The beat count between measures in chant is actually a variable, and that drives musicians batty. But that very fact is what makes chant so suitable for singing. It allows the same tone to apply to different texts. So the different Psalms that are different lengths can use the same chant. ( which is how the Byzantines can sign the entire Mass, including the Readings and Gospel, from the same 12 ‘songs.’

 

[Brendan]

In comparing Catholics in Africa to those in Asia, it’s worth mentioning that Africans are likely to be somewhat more comfortable with Latin, since the official language in most parts of Africa is either English or a Romance language.

Yep, I have this CD here

africanchorus.org/CDs/Missa.htm

Which is the Credo, Sanctus, Gloria and Kyrie in Latin\Greek set to African Kenya traditional beats and instruments.

The Africans are substantially more comfortable with Latin than most parishes.

Our local seminary has several men from Cameroon in training here. They all studied Latin in high school.

 

[lak611]

Go to a parish where they use the plainchant Agnus Dei. It’s the closest we have to actually obeying Pope Pauls desire in this matter. You will see how simple it is, and it sung in a range that both men and women can particpate in.

Where? I never saw that document you posted. I’ve been to many parishes in my diocese, and none of them use these chants. I would like to hear this (and sing it), but none of the parishes in my neighbourhood have this. NewUlm claims that Gregorian chant is not going away, but in my diocese, it has been long gone. My first memories of Mass were in the early 1970’s, and I have never heard chant even back then.