The "blueprint" for a perfect world

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tonyrey said:
These are abstract ideals unrelated to reality as we know it.
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Really? I don’t know what you know about reality but biologists know quite a lot. We know that plants do not feel pain and do not suffer because they lack the necessary nerve endings. We also know that the ability to think and reason are independent from the pain-receptors. We know that regeneration of injured or lost body parts is possible. There are many examples of that.

These concepts are not “unrelated” to reality, they come directly from reality.
tonyrey said:
The blueprint for a perfect world has to be modified to become credible to others as well as oneself.
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What you find “credible” is none of my concern. Every rational person that I talked to had no problem with understanding the process and found it more than “credible”. They found it obvious.
 
Pallas_Athene said:
They may respond: “pain is useful, it can alert one to some problem, which needs to be attended to”. But that is an inferior solution. A much better approach is a replacement, or a regeneration of the problematic part. There is no need for pain if it can be prevented by a superior method of having the organism healthy and intact.
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Except that when the “problem part” is the very essence of what makes a human a person, replacement is precisely what is called for – replacement/regeneration of the WILL itself. You must die and be reborn, which is why death entered the world as a direct consequence of the “problem.”

The refutation of your “blueprint” is to be found here:

dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-culture/some-festive-juxtapositions.html

Bonus: Includes a refutation of the secularist claim that slavery is intrinsically evil – it can’t be because it is the de facto state of the fallen human will AND the way out of that state at the same time.
So the secularists believe it is sacrilege for a man to be owned. We believe it is presumption and arrogance when a sinful man presumes to own. When the owner is perfect, as the Lord is perfect, then that problem disappears.
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Steven’s answer to Aram Vartian in the combox just 'bout sums up the inherent self-refuting contradiction in the secularist’s position…
“You are enslaved by your own ideas” - Bad?
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“The only master is the reflection in your mirror” - Good?
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Ponder for a while before responding.
 
tonyrey said:
The vast majority of living beings are not maimed or killed in a natural disaster or afflicted by disease or deformity.
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You have a very rosy, some might say childlike, vision of life on this planet. Almost everything is right now trying to find something to kill or desperately trying to avoid being killed.

When you go, Tony, I hope it’s after a long and fruitful life, the end pain free, surrounded by those you know and love. If you think that’s the way it is, or used to be, not just for humans but for all living creatures, then you are so far off the mark you are not even wrong.
 
Bradski said:
You have a very rosy, some might say childlike, vision of life on this planet. Almost everything is right now trying to find something to kill or desperately trying to avoid being killed.

When you go, Tony, I hope it’s after a long and fruitful life, the end pain free, surrounded by those you know and love. If you think that’s the way it is, or used to be, not just for humans but for all living creatures, then you are so far off the mark you are not even wrong.
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I can’t resist:

“When I go, I want to go like my grandfather, quietly in his sleep, not like the three passengers in his car screaming their heads off all the way to the bottom the chasm”.
 
Pallas_Athene said:
You have a very rosy, some might say childlike, vision of life on this planet. Almost everything is right now trying to find something to kill or desperately trying to avoid being killed.
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We already know you have a warped view of life in which the tragedies far outweigh its richness, wonder, beauty and opportunities for friendship, love, adventure, laughter, enjoyment and creativity. Of course all that counts for nothing because there are victims of greed, injustice and misfortune in a world where we exist for no reason or purpose, merely counting the days until we disappear into eternal darkness. It is only a question of time before we decide to commit suicide, isn’t it? That will solve all problems very neatly! 👍
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Bradski said:
You have a very rosy, some might say childlike, vision of life on this planet. Almost everything is right now trying to find something to kill or desperately trying to avoid being killed.
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I’m delighted you think I have a rosy view of life - unlike the miserable prophets of doom who are obsessed with all the evil and suffering in the world. I prefer to be childlike in my sense of wonder, delight, appreciation and gratitude for all the blessings I have received.
When you go, Tony, I hope it’s after a long and fruitful life, the end pain free, surrounded by those you know and love. If you think that’s the way it is, or used to be, not just for humans but for all living creatures, then you are so far off the mark you are not even wrong.
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Thank you for that kind thought, Brad, which is in stark contrast in the morbid mentality of cynics who dwell on all the negative aspects of life. I’ve already had a long and fruitful life with more than thirty narrow escapes from death, mainly in Africa.

It’s nonsense to think animals are always hunting and living in fear of death. For the most part their life is peaceful and enjoyable. I’ve seen zebra and wildebeeste calmly grazing in full sight of lions resting a few metres away. Twelve years in Africa transformed my view of life in the bush or on the Serengeti plains. Killing or being killed isn’t an everyday event for most animals and nature is far from being “red in tooth and claw”.Even then a swift end is more merciful than a lingering death from disease or starvation .Nature is extremely efficient on the whole and nothing in the wilds is wasted unlike our throwaway society which is steadily poisoning the oceans and continents.
 
tonyrey said:
We already know you have a warped view of life in which the tragedies far outweigh its richness, wonder, beauty and opportunities for friendship, love, adventure, laughter, enjoyment and creativity. Of course all that counts for nothing because there are victims of greed, injustice and misfortune in a world where we exist for no reason or purpose, merely counting the days until we disappear into eternal darkness. It is only a question of time before we decide to commit suicide, isn’t it? That will solve all problems very neatly! 👍
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Or, in the perfect world mentioned in the OP, we could just march serenely, painlessly, to non-existence anyway, blissful in the knowledge that no obstacle ever impeded our happiness, at least, regardless of whether or not that lack of obstacles might ever result in actually producing any kind of lasting happiness in us.
 
fhansen said:
We already know you have a warped view of life in which the tragedies far outweigh its richness, wonder, beauty and opportunities for friendship, love, adventure, laughter, enjoyment and creativity. Of course all that counts for nothing because there are victims of greed, injustice and misfortune in a world where we exist for no reason or purpose, merely counting the days until we disappear into eternal darkness. It is only a question of time before we decide to commit suicide, isn’t it? That will solve all problems very neatly!
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👍 All the evidence suggests that a total lack of obstacles and challenges leads to a state of boredom and dissatisfaction. We can have too much of a good thing! It isn’t until we lack something that we really appreciate it. If we had **everything **we wanted without having to do anything for it we would be in hell! That’s why people choose to risk their lives and suffer unnecessarily to show what they are capable of rather than be spoilt brats without guts!
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fhansen said:
Or, in the perfect world mentioned in the OP, we could just march serenely, painlessly, to non-existence anyway, blissful in the knowledge that no obstacle ever impeded our happiness, at least, regardless of whether or not that lack of obstacles might ever result in actually producing any kind of lasting happiness in us.
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There would be more than ample time to immerse oneself in truly interesting endeavors, thinking, exploring the beauty of math, of abstract thinking, creating new literature, music… and who knows what else. What would be missing is the day-to-day struggle to find the necessary nutrients to maintain one’s physical existence, toiling and working just to survive every day.

Somehow we all are happy when some new development allows us to decrease the time spent on working, and increase our time of leisure. Anyone who uses those time saving “gadgets” implicitly agrees that “work is just another 4-letter word”. The lack of work does not mean lack of challenges.
 
Pallas_Athene said:
There would be more than ample time to immerse oneself in truly interesting endeavors, thinking, exploring the beauty of math, of abstract thinking, creating new literature, music… and who knows what else. What would be missing is the day-to-day struggle to find the necessary nutrients to maintain one’s physical existence, toiling and working just to survive every day.

Somehow we all are happy when some new development allows us to decrease the time spent on working, and increase our time of leisure. Anyone who uses those time saving “gadgets” implicitly agrees that “work is just another 4-letter word”. The lack of work does not mean lack of challenges.
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But is our net overall happiness not perhaps greater because of the challenges to our leisure time-and our overcoming of them? And idk about work being bad-there can be great satisfaction in it. Maybe aversion to it is the problem.

Anyway, the Christian view does maintain a perfect world in the future, where all tears will be wiped away, justice is done, evil is eliminated. Again, here, for a time, during the 70 or so years we may be given, we play God; we’re either the expressions and hands of him, satan, or somewhere in between. This world temporarily provides a playing ground, deadly as it can be, where human freedom reigns completely and can play out its own course. Humans commit both heroic acts of virtue as well as the most heinous acts of depravity possible. Caring (love) can rule the day or selfishness and ego can do so. Then we’re judged as to which world we deserve, which, we, ourselves, apparently deemed to be “perfect” by our actions.
 
fhansen said:
But is our net overall happiness not perhaps greater because of the challenges to our leisure time-and our overcoming of them? And idk about work being bad-there can be great satisfaction in it. Maybe aversion to it is the problem.
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That is a side-issue, at best. I am simply pointing out that the lack of “toiling” does not make existence boring. The lack of pain and suffering does not make this existence “pointless”. Intelligent beings can fill up the 24 hours a day with meaningful activities, even if they cannot inflict pain on others.
fhansen said:
Anyway, the Christian view does maintain a perfect world in the future, where all tears will be wiped away, justice is done, evil is eliminated.
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Why not now? Besides, injustices suffered in the past cannot be retroactively eliminated.
fhansen said:
Again, here, for a time, during the 70 or so years we may be given, we play God; we’re either the expressions and hands of him, satan, or somewhere in between. This world temporarily provides a playing ground, deadly as it can be, where human freedom reigns completely and can play out its own course. Humans commit both heroic acts of virtue as well as the most heinous acts of depravity possible. Caring (love) can rule the day or selfishness and ego can do so. Then we’re judged as to which world we deserve, which, we, ourselves, apparently deemed to be “perfect” by our actions.
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What is the point? Does the “game” we play here provide “entertainment” for God? Because we certainly would be better off without all the pain and suffering inflicted upon us by either natural means or from the hand of other humans.

I cannot help but remember the “chess-game” between God and Satan, where the pawns the game are Job AND his family. What a cruel story! because the new “family” and new animals and the new fortune cannot erase the loss of the previous ones. There are many uplifting stories in the bible, and many horrific ones… and the story of Job is one of the worst ones.
 
Pallas_Athene said:
That is a side-issue, at best. I am simply pointing out that the lack of “toiling” does not make existence boring. The lack of pain and suffering does not make this existence “pointless”. Intelligent beings can fill up the 24 hours a day with meaningful activities, even if they cannot inflict pain on others.

Why not now? Besides, injustices suffered in the past cannot be retroactively eliminated.

What is the point? Does the “game” we play here provide “entertainment” for God? Because we certainly would be better off without all the pain and suffering inflicted upon us by either natural means or from the hand of other humans.

I cannot help but remember the “chess-game” between God and Satan, where the pawns the game are Job AND his family. What a cruel story! because the new “family” and new animals and the new fortune cannot erase the loss of the previous ones. There are many uplifting stories in the bible, and many horrific ones… and the story of Job is one of the worst ones.
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Well, maybe it can be said that we’re pawns either way; pawns in the hands of fate, with an unknown future, or pawns in the hands of an ultimately loving God-love as foundational to the universe, IOW-with the future at least partially revealed, as unimaginably good, and with the reason for the present world known primarily by he who alone knows the beginning from the end. In any case, with such a God out of the picture a world containing enormous quantities of beauty and goodness, apparently ordered by truth and reason, has little purpose or meaning in the end.
 
fhansen said:
We already know you have a warped view of life in which the tragedies far outweigh its richness, wonder, beauty and opportunities for friendship, love, adventure, laughter, enjoyment and creativity. Of course all that counts for nothing because there are victims of greed, injustice and misfortune in a world where we exist for no reason or purpose, merely counting the days until we disappear into eternal darkness. It is only a question of time before we decide to commit suicide, isn’t it? That will solve all problems very neatly!
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😉 Either way “the perfect world” is an infantile fantasy totally unrelated to the experience and wisdom of all the men and women who have enriched our understanding of love. To stake everything on a hypothetical possibility which ignores the example and teaching of Christ is sheer folly. Even Richard Dawkins, that bitter enemy of religion, is compelled to concede Jesus was ahead of His time. At least he has the humility to recognise the truth about the need for self-sacrifice and compassion which wouldn’t exist in the hedonistic paradise of the OP.

The OP’s blueprint is undoubtedly a superb solution. Its only drawback is that when confronted with the emptiness of a selfish existence it would make everyone feel blue…** 🙂 **
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fhansen said:
Well, maybe it can be said that we’re pawns either way; pawns in the hands of fate, with an unknown future, or pawns in the hands of an ultimately loving God-love as foundational to the universe, IOW-with the future at least partially revealed, as unimaginably good, and with the reason for the present world known primarily by he who alone knows the beginning from the end.
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What is the point of postponing dealing with the evil? What does the existence of evil ADD to the world?
fhansen said:
In any case, with such a God out of the picture a world containing enormous quantities of beauty and goodness, apparently ordered by truth and reason, has little purpose or meaning in the end.
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You mean that the alleged “end” has nothing to offer if the road leading there is not filled with pain and misery? In this case let’s stick to the “wonderful” principle: “the beatings will continue until the morale improves”. Let’s spread misery and mayhem so the “end” will be so much “sweeter”.
tonyrey said:
The OP’s blueprint is undoubtedly a superb solution. Its only drawback is that when confronted with the emptiness of a selfish existence it would make everyone feel blue…** 🙂 **
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In this “infantile fantasy” there is no pain and suffering, but there is unbridled free will, and where is no malevolence, and where is no selfishness and no selflessness - because there is no NEED for them. However there is intelligence, meaningful spending of time, but no boredom. Why would such a world be “empty”? It might not be “entertaining” to the observer (aka God), but the inhabitants would be much better of without wars, rapes, bloodshed, mayhem. But I guess, the entertainment comes first… and the SHOW MUST GO ON.
 
Pallas_Athene said:
What is the point of postponing dealing with the evil? What does the existence of evil ADD to the world?

You mean that the alleged “end” has nothing to offer if the road leading there is not filled with pain and misery? In this case let’s stick to the “wonderful” principle: “the beatings will continue until the morale improves”. Let’s spread misery and mayhem so the “end” will be so much “sweeter”.

In this “infantile fantasy” there is no pain and suffering, but there is unbridled free will, and where is no malevolence, and where is no selfishness and no selflessness - because there is no NEED for them. However there is intelligence, meaningful spending of time, but no boredom. Why would such a world be “empty”? It might not be “entertaining” to the observer (aka God), but the inhabitants would be much better of without wars, rapes, bloodshed, mayhem. But I guess, the entertainment comes first… and the SHOW MUST GO ON.
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What you seem to be arguing is that there is nothing inherently valuable in someone choosing to be an autonomous moral agent – that moral agency is no better than programmed morality. In other words you would be quite fine with not giving anyone a choice to be moral but if a method to surgically remove all choice could be found that would make human beings always act morally – no matter whether they chose to or not – that would be quite acceptable.

It seems that you would be willing to take away the human faculty for making intentional and free decisions on the grounds that the ends (individuals always acting morally) would justify the means (removal of autonomous will.)

Now I am suspicious that you not only have one former identity, but a second one as well. There was once a poster on CAF who argued that programmed robots would be preferable to autonomous human agency because that would remove all possibility for evil. Was that you, PA? Come clean now.
 
tonyrey said:
👍 All the evidence suggests that a total lack of obstacles and challenges leads to a state of boredom and dissatisfaction. We can have too much of a good thing! It isn’t until we lack something that we really appreciate it. If we had **everything **we wanted without having to do anything for it we would be in hell! That’s why people choose to risk their lives and suffer unnecessarily to show what they are capable of rather than be spoilt brats without guts!
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This has always seemed to me to be sloppy thinking. When we talk about some other possible world, there seems to be a tendency to want to insert ourselves into it. As though we could change all these things about the world and we’d still end up with the human species pretty much unchanged, in fact so unchanged that we as individuals would still exist pretty much unchanged. It’s not hard to imagine a version of humanity that does not get bored with only good things, but to do so we have to somewhat abandon that line of reasoning which says that we ourselves as individuals would be able to live there as we are now.
 
Peter_Plato said:
What you seem to be arguing is that there is nothing inherently valuable in someone choosing to be an autonomous moral agent – that moral agency is no better than programmed morality. In other words you would be quite fine with not giving anyone a choice to be moral but if a method to surgically remove all choice could be found that would make human beings always act morally – no matter whether they chose to or not – that would be quite acceptable.

It seems that you would be willing to take away the human faculty for making intentional and free decisions on the grounds that the ends (individuals always acting morally) would justify the means (removal of autonomous will.)

Now I am suspicious that you not only have one former identity, but a second one as well. There was once a poster on CAF who argued that programmed robots would be preferable to autonomous human agency because that would remove all possibility for evil. Was that you, PA? Come clean now.
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If you think that eliminating evil necessarily eliminates free will, then you must believe that a universe containing free will necessarily contains evil. However, prior to the Original Sin, the world existed without evil and with free will. If God had ended the world right before Adam and Eve sinned, the world would have been entirely free and entirely good. Therefore, it is possible for free will to exist in a world without evil.

Now you might object that “ending the world” might somehow represent a violation of free will. But I’m pretty sure most theologies state that we exist because of God’s will, not our own. In other words, we do not will ourselves into or out of existence, and so God ending our existence would not somehow force our free will against existence.
 
JapaneseKappa said:
This has always seemed to me to be sloppy thinking. When we talk about some other possible world, there seems to be a tendency to want to insert ourselves into it. As though we could change all these things about the world and we’d still end up with the human species pretty much unchanged, in fact so unchanged that we as individuals would still exist pretty much unchanged. It’s not hard to imagine a version of humanity that does not get bored with only good things, but to do so we have to somewhat abandon that line of reasoning which says that we ourselves as individuals would be able to live there as we are now.
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What is the point of talking about a possible world if we don’t come into the picture? Fantasy has to give way to fact if it is to be relevant to our predicament. “imagine” is the key word. It leads nowhere - like a life which ends at death. It certainly doesn’t help us to face reality and solve our everyday problems - unlike the experience and wisdom of all the men and women who have enriched our understanding of love. To stake everything on a hypothetical possibility which ignores the example and teaching of Christ is sheer folly. Even Richard Dawkins, that bitter enemy of religion, is compelled to concede Jesus was ahead of His time. At least he has the humility to recognise the truth about the need for self-sacrifice and compassion which wouldn’t exist in the hedonistic paradise of the OP. The truth bears repeating even if it is unpalatable…
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