The Body of Christ And The Church

[Anna_Scott]

For me it’s relevant because I believe the Body of Christ is the Church.

I think we all agree they are one and the same.

Any Catholic or non-Catholic who was born into their religion but does not or has not yet come to believe in the resurrection of Jesus is not a Christian and has not yet converted to Christianity whether it be Protestant or Catholic.

I believe in infant Baptism, so I would disagree. Infants are brought into Covenant with God and into the Body of Christ through Baptism–as the Jews were brought into Covenant through circumcision of males when they were 8 days old. The New Testament tells us that Baptism is the Circumcision made without hands.

The Body of Christ are all believers in the resurrection of Jesus Christ. I realize there are all sorts of weird sects and cults but I can’t judge each individual. I would have to get to know them and see if they are sincere. I don’t have that kind of time. But if someone tells me they do not believe the gospel message then they are not in the Body of Christ at this time. I would say the Body of Christ and the Church are one (both living and those not with us any longer) but since we are on Catholic Answers Forum I should say that my definition is not a Catholic definition. This is the Catholic definition.

ewtn.com/library/encyc/p12mysti.htm
MYSTICI CORPORIS CHRISTI (On the Mystical Body of Christ)

There is far more to the Catholic doctrine of salvation than what you have quoted here. So, to say this is the Catholic definition is somewhat misleading.

Just wondering why you didn’t comment on the article I posted regarding the visible vs. invisible Church. This was in response to your post regarding the “visible Church.” Any particular reason you have switched topics?

Anna

 

[SteveVH]

The Body of Christ are all believers in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Even those who believe in the resurrection, but deny the divinity of Jesus Christ?

Even those who believe in the resurrection but deny the Trinty?

Even those who believe in the resurrection but deny Baptism?

Even those who believe in the resurrection but deny the Eucharist?

How far does one wander from the original faith before you draw the line?

 

[Tunesmith]

I believe in infant Baptism, so I would disagree. Infants are brought into Covenant with God and into the Body of Christ through Baptism–as the Jews were brought into Covenant through circumcision of males when they were 8 days old. The New Testament tells us that Baptism is the Circumcision made without hands.

I also believe in infant baptism but if my Catholic friends tell me the gospel is just a story or “I believe in God but I don’t know about that” then are we in the same covenant with God?
I’m open to correction so fire away.

There is far more to the Catholic doctrine of salvation than what you have quoted here. So, to say this is the Catholic definition is somewhat misleading.

Yes I know there is. In a nutshell if you are invincibly ignorant of the Catholic Church you have an excuse but if you know about the Catholic Church and refuse to be a Catholic you are not excused. Am I correct? I was on a thread about Vatican II and now I’m more unsure about Catholic doctrine than I was before.

Just wondering why you didn’t comment on the article I posted regarding the visible vs. invisible Church. This was in response to your post regarding the “visible Church.” Any particular reason you have switched topics?

I’m sorry. I wasn’t aware that I switched topics. I will read again and comment.

Are you referring to my post #84? There are people in every church (denomination) who are the visible church but many of them do not believe the gospel message so I would have to say the Body of Christ are the believers in the resurrection of Jesus

 

[Tunesmith]

Even those who believe in the resurrection, but deny the divinity of Jesus Christ?

Even those who believe in the resurrection but deny the Trinty?

Even those who believe in the resurrection but deny Baptism?

Even those who believe in the resurrection but deny the Eucharist?

How far does one wander from the original faith before you draw the line?

Those people are obeying what they’ve been taught. According to Vatican II they are obeying their conscience. I’m not going condemn all Mormons or Jehovah’s witnesses because they don’t believe in the Trinity or whatever else they do or do not believe. On the other hand I can’t worship God with them either. I personally believe in the Trinity and I’m responsible to obey what I know is true.

What are your thoughts on baptized Catholics and Protestants who deny the Trinity and the Eucharist? Are we one with them?

 

[SteveVH]

Those people are obeying what they’ve been taught. According to Vatican II they are obeying their conscience.

Possibly, yes.

I’m not going condemn all Mormons or Jehovah’s witnesses because they don’t believe in the Trinity or whatever else they do or do not believe.

Yes, we should leave the condemning to God.

On the other hand I can’t worship God with them either.

So the statement: “The Body of Christ are all believers in the resurrection of Jesus Christ” doesn’t really hold true, does it?

What are your thoughts on baptized Catholics and Protestants who deny the Trinity and the Eucharist? Are we one with them?

No, we are not. We are one to the degree that one holds to the true faith handed down by the Apostles, regardless of what one may call themselves. I know plenty of Catholics who have, in reality, excommunicated themselves from the Church by their denial of Church teaching (pro-choice; pro-same-sex marriage, pro-contraception, etc…).

 

[Anna_Scott]

I also believe in infant baptism but if my Catholic friends tell me the gospel is just a story or “I believe in God but I don’t know about that” then are we in the same covenant with God?
I’m open to correction so fire away.

If your Catholic friends are telling you this, then they are not following Catholic doctrine.

I’m sorry. I wasn’t aware that I switched topics. I will read again and comment.

Are you referring to my post #84? There are people in every church (denomination) who are the visible church but many of them do not believe the gospel message so I would have to say the Body of Christ are the believers in the resurrection of Jesus

Yes, Post #84:

There are people in every church (denomination) who are the visible church but many of them do not believe the gospel message so I would have to say the Body of Christ are the believers in the resurrection of Jesus. That brings me to communion. These people who don’t believe in the resurrection of Jesus are permitted to receive communion despite their unbelief because they grew up in that religion while those in other denominations who do believe in the resurrection are not permitted to partake because they were taught it’s only symbolic. Something’s not right about this picture.

Tunesmith,

It would be helpful if you would clarify your understanding of the “Visible Church.” There is a very interesting Catholic article, entitled, Visible vs. Invisible Church. The article gives the Evangelical definition of the Church and the Catholic definition of the Church, and notes that Catholics say Church is “visible” and “invisible.” Do you agree?

Also, keep in mind there are people who believe in the resurrection of Jesus, but do not believe in the Holy Trinity. Do you think belief in the resurrection is the only criteria for being part of the Body of Christ/Church?

Conditions for receiving Communion (such as belief or non-belief in the resurrection) is not really the topic of this thread. However, it would be an interesting discussion. So, you may want to start a new thread.

Our topic concerns whether or not the Body of Christ and the Church are one and the same. How do you define the Body of Christ? How do you define the Church?

I appreciate your comments.

Anna

I was asking for your definition of the “visible Church” and your thoughts on the Catholic article about the visible vs. invisible Church.

Anna

 

[SteveVH]

There are people in every church (denomination) who are the visible church but many of them do not believe the gospel message so I would have to say the Body of Christ are the believers in the resurrection of Jesus.

So the answer is to bring the faith down to its lowest common denominator?

That brings me to communion. These people who don’t believe in the resurrection of Jesus are permitted to receive communion despite their unbelief because they grew up in that religion

A Catholic is obligated to believe all that the Church teaches and holds to be true. You are not correct that one who denies the resurrection is allowed to receive communion. If they do receive they are doing it under false pretenses; i.e. the priest is not aware of their spiritual state. By the way, I don’t think I have ever met a Catholic who does not believe in the resurrection.

while those in other denominations who do believe in the resurrection are not permitted to partake because they were taught it’s only symbolic. Something’s not right about this picture.

Why would believing in the Trinity qualify one to receive communion while denying the very sacrament they wish to receive? And if they believe it’s just a symbol why would they be upset at all? They really wouldn’t be missing out on something real.

 

[Tunesmith]

I was asking for your definition of the “visible Church” and your thoughts on the Catholic article about the visible vs. invisible Church.

Anna

It would be great if everyone was in unity but that’s not going to happen. In the meantime God is calling people to Himself in all denominations. That’s the visible church. The invisible church is the church that God planned before the foundation of the world.
Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son

He knows who belongs to Him. He knew there would be divisions. He is the All-Knowing God. Jesus has promised to not lose any that the Father gives to Him. They will be raised on the last day.

 

[Tunesmith]

So the answer is to bring the faith down to its lowest common denominator?

No. The answer is to trust God to sort it out. We will be united in heaven. There will never be complete unity here. That’s what humans do best; they divide. They also multiply but that’s another subject.

A Catholic is obligated to believe all that the Church teaches and holds to be true.

But if they don’t how can you make that happen? Jesus said “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him” and John says “children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.” Does that happen at baptism or after baptism? I don’t think it’s the same for everyone.

You are not correct that one who denies the resurrection is allowed to receive communion. If they do receive they are doing it under false pretenses; i.e. the priest is not aware of their spiritual state. By the way, I don’t think I have ever met a Catholic who does not believe in the resurrection.

They are not doing it under false pretenses; They are doing it from habit.

Why would believing in the Trinity qualify one to receive communion while denying the very sacrament they wish to receive? And if they believe it’s just a symbol why would they be upset at all? They really wouldn’t be missing out on something real.

I’m not sure of what you are asking. Are talking about Protestants? I’m just saying a believing non-Catholic is closer to the eucharist than a non-believing Catholic. Many believing Catholics have a problem with transubstantiation also.

 

[SteveVH]

No. The answer is to trust God to sort it out. We will be united in heaven.

No matter what we believe?

There will never be complete unity here. That’s what humans do best; they divide. They also multiply but that’s another subject.

There is unity within the Catholic Church. I don’t care where I am in the world, we share the exact same doctrines and have for 2000 years. I will know the liturgy, the same readings will be read each day. If one understands the Mass it doesn’t really matter which language is spoken. You can always read the Scriptures in English and you know the prayers and the responses. Most importantly, it is the same Christ that we encounter in the Eucharist, the unifying factor in which we become one. It’s a wonderful thing, to say the least.

But if they don’t how can you make that happen?

The Church’s mission is to teach all nations. You make it happen through speaking the truth. Those who reject it will reject it. It has been this way since the beginning. Nevertheless there remains only one truth, not many truths according to the whims, opinions and personal desires of people.

Jesus said “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him” and John says “children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.” Does that happen at baptism or after baptism? I don’t think it’s the same for everyone.

God draws all people to himself and willed that each one of us is here. We have nothing to worry about as far as God’s part in all of this. He will always be faithful. What we have to worry about is our response to God’s call. Anyone with children knows that you can draw one near and sometimes they fight to get out of your arms. God allows us to run away; to do our own thing.

They are not doing it under false pretenses; They are doing it from habit.

No one could be so unaware of Church teaching as to not believe in the resurrection and at the same time believe they are in communion with the Church. If one cannot profess the creeds one should not be receiving communion in a Catholic Church. So yes, they would be receiving under false pretenses unless they were complete imbeciles, habit or no habit.

I’m not sure of what you are asking. Are talking about Protestants? I’m just saying a believing non-Catholic is closer to the eucharist than a non-believing Catholic. Many believing Catholics have a problem with transubstantiation also.

What I am saying is this: Neither of them should be recieving the Eucharist. The first because he is not in communion with the Church of which he professes to belong and the second because he eats and drinks not recognizing the body and blood of the Lord and therefore calls down condemnation on himself.

 

[Tunesmith]

There is unity within the Catholic Church. I don’t care where I am in the world, we share the exact same doctrines and have for 2000 years.

There is unity to some extent; not perfect unity. If you go to various threads on CAF you will see that Catholics are not in agreement on everything. One of the reasons is because they don’t understand everything. Some people think they will pay for their sins in purgatory, some believe only Catholics are saved. In my own conversations with Catholics I know who attend mass regularly they think all religions are the same and all religions lead to God. Some accept New Age philosophy and some don’t confess to a priest. Catholic politicians support gay marriage and abortion. That’s not unity.

No one could be so unaware of Church teaching as to not believe in the resurrection and at the same time believe they are in communion with the Church. If one cannot profess the creeds one should not be receiving communion in a Catholic Church. So yes, they would be receiving under false pretenses unless they were complete imbeciles, habit or no habit.

It has nothing to do with intelligence. It’s a matter of faith. Unbelievers are members of the Church by way of culture and social acceptance. Look at predominantly Catholic countries such as Spain, France, Brazil, Ireland and Mexico. Do you think all those people agree on everything the Church teaches? Do you think they all accept the gospel?

 

[Anna_Scott]

There is unity to some extent; not perfect unity. If you go to various threads on CAF you will see that Catholics are not in agreement on everything. One of the reasons is because they don’t understand everything. Some people think they will pay for their sins in purgatory, some believe only Catholics are saved. In my own conversations with Catholics I know who attend mass regularly they think all religions are the same and all religions lead to God. Some accept New Age philosophy and some don’t confess to a priest. Catholic politicians support gay marriage and abortion. That’s not unity. . . . .

Tunesmith,

Seriously, I don’t understand why you insist on perpetuating this mantra regarding Catholics whose beliefs and practices are outside the teachings of the Catholic Church. This is not unique to Catholicism. You will find people in every faith/denomination who do not believe the Gospel or what their Pastors teach. Yet, they attend Church and accept all it offers. What point are you trying to make in regards to the thread topic?

Anna

 

[Tunesmith]

Tunesmith,

Seriously, I don’t understand why you insist on perpetuating this mantra regarding Catholics whose beliefs and practices are outside the teachings of the Catholic Church. This is not unique to Catholicism. You will find people in every faith/denomination who do not believe the Gospel or what their Pastors teach. Yet, they attend Church and accept all it offers. What point are you trying to make in regards to the thread topic?

Anna

What unites us as one body? The eucharist or our faith in Christ? You asked for my thoughts on the visible and invisible church. These are my thoughts. Members of the visible church are not necessarily members of the invisible church. That’s all. I’m done. Good-bye.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Tunesmith,

Seriously, I don’t understand why you insist on perpetuating this mantra regarding Catholics whose beliefs and practices are outside the teachings of the Catholic Church. This is not unique to Catholicism. You will find people in every faith/denomination who do not believe the Gospel or what their Pastors teach. Yet, they attend Church and accept all it offers. What point are you trying to make in regards to the thread topic?

Anna

What unites us as one body? The eucharist or our faith in Christ? You asked for my thoughts on the visible and invisible church. These are my thoughts. Members of the visible church are not necessarily members of the invisible church. That’s all. I’m done. Good-bye.

Tunesmith,

Leaving the thread is easier than answering direct questions. That is, of course, your choice.

Anna

 

[jmcrae]

The Church can be likened to a flock of sheep. The unifier of the sheep is the shepherd. It is the shepherd who keeps the flock together, and who leads them to where they need to go.

Jesus said to Peter, “Shepherd my sheep.” (John 21:15-19) In so saying, Jesus was placing Peter in the highest position of authority over His Church. (Today, we call that position “the Pope.”)

Peter has had many successors - more than 200, in an unbroken line of authority that began with Jesus. Today, Peter’s lawful successor, and the appointed “shepherd” of Jesus’ “sheep” - that is to say, His Church, is Pope Francis.

Those not in complete organizational unity with Pope Francis are not in complete spiritual unity with Christ’s Church. By Baptism, they have a partial unity, which is recognized and honoured when they convert - we don’t rebaptize them.

 

[Anna_Scott]

The Church can be likened to a flock of sheep. The unifier of the sheep is the shepherd. It is the shepherd who keeps the flock together, and who leads them to where they need to go.

Jesus said to Peter, “Shepherd my sheep.” (John 21:15-19) In so saying, Jesus was placing Peter in the highest position of authority over His Church. (Today, we call that position “the Pope.”)

Peter has had many successors - more than 200, in an unbroken line of authority that began with Jesus. Today, Peter’s lawful successor, and the appointed “shepherd” of Jesus’ “sheep” - that is to say, His Church, is Pope Francis.

Those not in complete organizational unity with Pope Francis are not in complete spiritual unity with Christ’s Church. By Baptism, they have a partial unity, which is recognized and honoured when they convert - we don’t rebaptize them.

jmcrae,

Thanks for your comments.

Anna

 

[KathleenGee]

Hi Anna,

Just coming on here. I am pretty much going to repeat what I just put down on a Mormon thread and restoration.

Most Catholics do not understand the nature and mission of the Church.

Jesus said the Temple would be brought down and re-built in three days.

Jesus Christ is the Church. Jesus Christ is the life of the Church.

Buildings are outward signs, but if they collapse or are destroyed, the Catholic Church goes on. If there is but one Catholic in Spokane, WA, it would be documented that the Church still exists in Spokane.

There is the Mystical Body of Christ. There is His instituted Universal Church that is nurtured by Him through the Holy Spirit acting through the ecclesiastics as representing His authority found in Scripture and Sacred Tradition, both serving to reveal Christ to us.

The Lord sends us His Holy Spirit. He teaches us through His Word at the Liturgy and He nourishes us with His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity. One must be baptized and initiated, affirming faith in the Creed, and the 7 sacraments, and to receive Holy Communion, one must be in state of grace.

When one commits a mortal sin, one is now outside the Church. To return to the Church, one must go to confession for absolution, and then can resume the reception of the Eucharist, or else, commits a sacrilege.

When a person receives Trinitarian Baptism, one is now baptized into the Catholic Church. So at the greatest distance, a Trinitarian Baptism makes one a Catholic Christian, and is the reason we consider Protestants our separated brothers and sisters.

But to participate in the Church requires integrity of faith and practice.

But one is outside the Church, though member of Christ’s mystical Body, because one is not able to affirm the Creed and lawfully receive the sacraments, and does not acknowledge Christ’s authority in our Holy Father, Bishops and pastors. So for a person to enter into the Church, must go through the pastor for formation or a bishop or other ecclesiastical authorities to become a member.

My pastor said depending on the circumstances, if he were to decide, a Trinitarian Protestant could come in to see him, and then become a member and go to Mass and receive the Eucharist the very next day, because their baptism is legitimate.

The Pope is the head of the universal Church, including the Orthodox whether or not they accept him or not. The Pope is the Living Revelation of Christ for our times. I doubt anyone has ever heard the Pope speak publicly and hear anything erratic.

The Pope also represents the communion of faith in One Body and Bread. The pope is also the Bishop of Rome, Patriach of Italy, and some other titles I forgot. This communion extends to all bishops and the various 22 to 28 rites of different ethnicities that are all united as one.

The bishop is the successor to the Apostles and has the same power and presence as they did. The bishop oversees and represents all Catholics in his diocese within certain geographic boundaries, but the local bishop is also the shepherd of all souls, including the atheists who live within his diocese. He prays for all and cares for all, and has their salvation as his main work.

Again, when we commit mortal sin, we are no longer in the visible or invisible Catholic Church. We are outside of it. So when we want to go back to the Church, we go to confession to have the sin removed, and then we can receive the life of the Lord again at Mass and in sacrament.

Jesus Christ is the life and Blood of the Church. It is the presence and power of Jesus teh world experiences, not the pope or priests in themselves. When my pastor walks through the church inside, his presence is no different than ours. But when the priest is vested and comes out to say Mass, the divine presence of Jesus Christ is now made aware to all of us attending.

 

[SteveVH]

Tunesmith,

Seriously, I don’t understand why you insist on perpetuating this mantra regarding Catholics whose beliefs and practices are outside the teachings of the Catholic Church. This is not unique to Catholicism. You will find people in every faith/denomination who do not believe the Gospel or what their Pastors teach. Yet, they attend Church and accept all it offers. What point are you trying to make in regards to the thread topic?

Anna

Exactly. :banghead:

 

[KathleenGee]

Personal opinions or thoughts are subjective and not objective conveying the truth.

We are to avoid personal interpretation of Sacred Scripture, according to St. Peter in his second epistle, chapter 2.

 

[Indifferently]

The Body of Christ IS the Catholic Church, which is, as the Prayer Book says, “the blessed company of all faithful people”. We are incorporate into Christ’s Body through Baptism. When Christ prayed that we all be One, he was not making a vain wish, he was stating a truth: we already are One, but it is political divisions within the One Body which divide us. May God have mercy upon us miserable sinners.